The Books of Enoch.

[Tararose]

No thanks for at least listing a few things you consider to be these mighty men,,,do you think we are just as guilty if we use the things they invented(computers,cars ect.) when we know that they are doing these things(slavery,pollution ect) and do you think we would be deserving of the same punishment?

I couldn't say. We are all going to be answerable for our own actions, I don't think God turns a blind eye to anything we do that is selfish and promotes the harm of others indirectly or directly. Of course this would require a degree of understanding and choice to put our needs higher than that of others for it to actually be selfish.

As it Is written, there is no good or evil in any thing,
and,
it is the human heart which produces wickedness.

A computer can be used to save lives, share the gospel, or to promote lies, or to facilitate abuse.
If we have a renewed heart we have to personally weigh up our actions on the scales of God's wisdom and with the measure of His love.

He makes all things beautiful in His time, if we can do everything for the glory of God, we may yet be able to use what others intended for evil, to work the good deeds of God on this earth.

We have to be careful and not judge before the time.

Martha was cross and wanted Mary to help serve with her, Jesus defended Mary, saying she had chosen a better thing than serving Him.

A woman who "wastefully" poured costly perfume on Jesus' feet, instead of selling it and donating to the poor, was publicly defended and commended for her incredible act of love by the saviour.

But we do know that the love of money is the root of all evil, and therein we see once again, it is the wicked unhealthy desire, and not the money itself that is evil. These modern day mighty men we speak of, tend to accumulate great wealth and this is (I speak generally) frequently a higher priority to them than moral decision making.

This is why it is harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom, than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle. It is rare for a Godly person to willingly accumulate wealth , when there are so many needs in the word, all the time.

But, ultimately, only God knows why we choose to sell, buy, own, or use things, and only He can properly judge our justification for doing so. If the things have only the purpose of aiding someone to sin, or strongly support sinning in some way, we can be clear it is not to be bought, sold or used by a believer.

 

[KingdomBrat]

Not according to first century historian Josephus. Where do you get your information?

"Enoch also prophesied these." Any number of people probably said the same.

Claiming Enoch said something is not proof the book of the same name is inspired.

The difference for me concerning what Enoch said, was this [oral vs written] translation, Jesus quotes Enoch, Paul quotes Enoch, Peter quotes Enoch, James and Jude quote Enoch...blah blah blah...

...the difference for me, is not that a group of humans claimed the materials attached to Enoch were not inspired, but that God in the Book of Genesis calls Enoch Righteous. He calls Enoch Righteous in a world devoted to evil doings, wickedness, self pleasure, idolatry, every sin before it was labelled] a sin was being committed during these days. And from all that garbage, God looked upon Enoch, found him to be perfect and Righteous, allowed him to see things we read that Paul was allowed to see, and God took him and kept him from physical death.

God found him perfect and Righteous in the Old Testament and quoted him as Christ in the New Testament.
That's all I need to know about the inspiration of Enoch's materials.

 

[Scribe]

There is a great lesson to learn from this thread. I wonder if anyone knows what it is?

 

[Magenta]

The difference for me concerning what Enoch said, was this [oral vs written] translation, Jesus quotes Enoch, Paul quotes Enoch, Peter quotes Enoch, James and Jude quote Enoch...blah blah blah...

...the difference for me, is not that a group of humans claimed the materials attached to Enoch were not inspired, but that God in the Book of Genesis calls Enoch Righteous. He calls Enoch Righteous in a world devoted to evil doings, wickedness, self pleasure, idolatry, every sin before it was labelled] a sin was being committed during these days. And from all that garbage, God looked upon Enoch, found him to be perfect and Righteous, allowed him to see things we read that Paul was allowed to see, and God took him and kept him from physical death.

God found him perfect and Righteous in the Old Testament and quoted him as Christ in the New Testament.
That's all I need to know about the inspiration of Enoch's materials.

None of that is evidence for the book of Enoch being inspired

 

[KingdomBrat]

None of that is evidence for the book of Enoch being inspired

What has been quoted by others, especially the words we read as Gospel, that are from quoting Enoch, are indeed inspired as the other words we read in the Bible.

 

[CS1]

The book of Enoch falsely implies, among many things:

God kills mankind for the sins of angels.

God creates sexual beings and gives them sexual desire and sperm, creates no female counterpart for any of them, forbids marriage and procreation, while yet enabling them with the ability to cross breed with humans - presumably through force or deception?

That when God spoke into being that every living thing would produce its own kind, He was wrong.

That no giants existed before the sins that led to the flood.

That God thought the flood was necessary to wipe out giants... despite them continuing to thrive on earth and doing battle with Israel later in history, according to scripture.

I could go on, but there is no need. If you want to believe in it, you will. But you have to throw away the omnipotent, all-knowing, loving, righteous and infallible God of the bible from your theology to make it work.

You know you are on to something here I have really given a harder look at Jude and I think there is something here I would lie to share from a question I a different post that brought up Jude and Enoch. I just wrote this not to long ago this morning.

 

[CS1]

You know you are on to something here I have really given a harder look at Jude and I think there is something here I would lie to share from a question I a different post that brought up Jude and Enoch. I just wrote this not to long ago this morning.

As far as Jude, If you read it you will see some very key points that most overlook when reading Jude because they can't get past angels.

let's start at verse 3:

Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. 4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you.

It would appear Jude has a concern of false teachers or writings from long ago that some have been interjected to these Christians Wrongly I might add.

They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

This is a very serious point Jude is making here also as the Brother of James you may want to read James Parelell with Jude.

5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Clearly, Jude is speaking against the teaching or writing that has crept into the church there and addressing what seems to be a denial of actual Judgement. Jude is causing them to remember God not only judge man but the angels too which have been bound once they left their positions of authority.

Please read on but I want to pick it up at verse 11 now,

11 Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam’s error; they have been destroyed in Korah’s rebellion.

We have to ask three questions here that need to be answered: 1. what is the way of Cain? 2. What was Balaam's error and 3. what is Korah's rebellion?

1. way of Cain= the way of Cain must include the disobedience of unbelief. God told Cain before he murdered his brother Able,

"sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

Did Cain listen to God?


2. Balaams error= they are many Balaam loved the wages of wickedness, and he knew God and how he would respond to sexual sin and helped Balak to defeat the Israelis by using ungodly women and idols worship to Offend God. (ref. Numbers 25:1)


3. Korah's rebellion= He raised up a rebellion against God leaders's. challenging the leadership, challenging the divine appointment of Moses and Aaron. The sin of pride, the sin of jealousy, the sin of selfish ambition


Jude has really addressed some major issue that is happening in the CHURCH! just like Elijah too addressed the people of God and the false god Baal

Jude was saying those who have slipped in are doing the following and bring into the church

1. disobedience of unbelief.
2. sexual sin
3. rebellion against the leadership, and jealousy and pride


in Verse 14 Jude uses the writing of Enoch which is being used to divide the church to make the following point in the three areas I listed now see what Jude says:

"14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” 16 These people are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage."


the way of Cain:
Balaam's error;
Korah Rebellion :

This was the issue of the church! Jude was speaking about


Finally:

17 But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

it seems those here were using something to divide the church what could it have been? something that appeared to be the word of God even prophesied as did Balaam and spoke some truth as did Balaam yet were using the knowledge they had of God to defeat the people of God.


in closing:

20 But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

24 To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

 

[Magenta]

What has been quoted by others, especially the words we read as Gospel, that are from quoting Enoch, are indeed inspired as the other words we read in the Bible.

Jesus Himself quoted non-biblical sources to speak of the weather.

He also quoted a proverb (from a source that is unknown) in the following verse:

And Jesus said to [those gathered in the synagogue who had just heard Him read from the scroll of Isaiah], "No doubt you will quote this proverb to Me, 'Physician, heal yourself! Whatever we heard was done at Capernaum, do here in your hometown as well.'" (Luke 4:23)​

​

Paul quoted secular poets in his Sermon on Mars Hill:

". . . for in Him [God] we live and move and exist, as even some of your​

own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.'" (Acts 17:28)​

​

Paul also quoted Aratus and other Greek poets and playwrights, as he did in 1 Corinthians 15:33, where we read:

"Do not be deceived," 'Bad company corrupts good morals,'” [or] 'Bad company ruins good manners' ​

​

This quotation came from the Athenian writer Menander in his play Thais. Menander lived from 343-291 B.C.

Clearly extra Biblical, uninspired sayings are quoted in Scripture.

Plus, quoting something that was inspired does not make the whole book inspired.

You cannot say the source of the quote was solely from Enoch, either.

Jude was free, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, to quote Enoch's prophecy as it had been handed down over the centuries as part of Jewish oral history, and this oral tradition may have preceded "The Book of Enoch" by hundreds of years. partial source

 

[KingdomBrat]

Jude isn't slamming the words from Enoch, he is using them as the warning, the [same] warning Enoch gave while on Earth to a very wicked people and was orally/wrote about later.

 

[KingdomBrat]

Jesus Himself quoted non-biblical sources to speak of the weather.

He also quoted a proverb (from a source that is unknown) in the following verse:

And Jesus said to [those gathered in the synagogue who had just heard Him read from the scroll of Isaiah], "No doubt you will quote this proverb to Me, 'Physician, heal yourself! Whatever we heard was done at Capernaum, do here in your hometown as well.'" (Luke 4:23)​

​

Paul quoted secular poets in his Sermon on Mars Hill:

". . . for in Him [God] we live and move and exist, as even some of your​

own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.'" (Acts 17:28)​

​

Paul also quoted Aratus and other Greek poets and playwrights, as he did in 1 Corinthians 15:33, where we read:

"Do not be deceived," 'Bad company corrupts good morals,'” [or] 'Bad company ruins good manners' ​

​

This quotation came from the Athenian writer Menander in his play Thais. Menander lived from 343-291 B.C.

Clearly extra Biblical, uninspired sayings are quoted in Scripture.

Pus, quoting something that was inspired does not make the whole book inspired.

You cannot say the source of the quote was solely from Enoch, either.

Jude was free, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, to quote Enoch's prophecy as it had been handed down over the centuries as part of Jewish oral history, and this oral tradition may have preceded "The Book of Enoch" by hundreds of years.

I never said the entire source we have today is inspired. I said what Enoch did say/write that Christ and others use later is inspired. The Books of Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, minor prophets, Matthew, Luke, Mark, Peter, Paul (Epistle), James, Jude, and Revelation all verify the entire first Chapter of Enoch. No one said chapter 2 and onward is anything but attached to Chapter One that is verified in both Testaments.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The book of Enoch falsely implies, among many things:

God kills mankind for the sins of angels.

I would remind you that, because of Adam and Eve's original disobedience, mankind was already worthy of death. "In the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." Therefore, God would have been perfectly justified in destroying mankind for their original sin even before the angels took human wives.

The fact is that, the mankind was corrupted and the world was altered. It was not that God did not warn them, for Noah preached about the coming flood to them, but they did not believe and did not know what would happen to them until the day Noah entered the ark and the flood came and took them all away.

The point is that, because of the original fall and before the angels had erred, mankind was already under the sentence of death. Therefore, you cannot blame it on the sins of angels. Else we could blame Satan's deception with Eve on him as well.

 

[KingdomBrat]

I would remind you that, because of Adam and Eve's original disobedience, mankind was already worthy of death. "In the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." Therefore, God would have been perfectly justified in destroying mankind for their original sin even before the angels took human wives.

The fact is that, the mankind was corrupted and the world was altered. It was not that God did not warn them, for Noah preached about the coming flood to them, but they did not believe and did not know what would happen to them until the day Noah entered the ark and the flood came and took them all away.

The point is that, because of the original fall and before the angels had erred, mankind was already under the sentence of death. Therefore, you cannot blame it on the sins of angels. Else we could blame Satan's deception with Eve on him as well.

Yep, there was indeed both sins of man and the fallen being committed. If Sodom is a SMALLER version of the pre-flood sinful Earth's condition, it was just a gluttonous self pleasure at any cost and I live to indulge myself even more tomorrow sinful attitude from Adam to Noah as Genesis 6 fulfilled itself. No wonder God was fierce in His Anger! No wonder round 2 included the LAW!

 

[CS1]

Jude isn't slamming the words from Enoch, he is using them as the warning, the [same] warning Enoch gave while on Earth to a very wicked people and was orally/wrote about later.

I am saying there were those who Jude was addressing that used some old writing to divide the church. Could it have been the writing of Enoch? many used the words of Jesus and Paul and others to divide the church. We do know there were books of Enoch that were not written by Enoch yet there is truth being said in it.

Did not Balaam prophesy and speak great truth about God?

" God is not a man that He should lie". Yet this same man did great evil with the knowledge he had of God and God's response to sexual sin.

 

[Diakonos]

The Sons Of God were human men, that married human women

Teaching Angels have sex with human women, and maintaining human sperm is a fairytale in mythology, and false teaching.

Look There, Elimelech's Sons Took Human Wives Toooo

Ruth 1:3-4KJV
3 And Elimelech Naomi's husband died; and she was left, and her two sons.
4 And they took them wives of the women of Moab; the name of the one was Orpah, and the name of the other Ruth: and they dwelled there about ten years.

Genesis 6:1-6KJV
1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

"The Sons of God" took wives, Angel's don't marry humans, it's that simple.

Matthew 22:30KJV
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

You have not responded to my comment (post #237), you have only restated what you originally said (which I have Biblically debunked).

Exactly. The angels in heaven do not marry...because they are obedient to God. Fallen angels however are disobedient:

Jude 6-7 "Angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire."

There it is, right there in Jude; Angels indulged in gross immorality just as Sodom and Gomorrah did. Peter elaborates on this subject in chapter 2 of his 2nd epistle.

 

[Deade]

The difference for me concerning what Enoch said, was this [oral vs written] translation, Jesus quotes Enoch, Paul quotes Enoch, Peter quotes Enoch, James and Jude quote Enoch...blah blah blah...

Jude did not say the "book" of Enoch. Much of the Jew's religious tradition was oral.

Jude was free, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, to quote Enoch's prophecy as it had been handed down over the centuries as part of Jewish oral history, and this oral tradition may have preceded "The Book of Enoch" by hundreds of years.

Exactly. Enoch's prophecies were known by oral and by lost scrolls. This information was used by the author of "Enoch" to give it legitimacy. Most of "Enoch" fails on many points.

 

[CS1]

What you believe is irrelevant. What Scripture says is relevant.

I don't read into greek mythology. I just have a habit of fact-checking everything.

"sons of God" (plural) (Hebrew=ben ay Elohim) always refers to angels in the Hebrew Scriptures:

Genesis 6:2
2 that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose.

Genesis 6:4
4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.

Job 1:6
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.

Job 2:1

1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them to present himself before the Lord.

Job 38:7 (before God created Adam and Eve)
7 When the morning stars sang together
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?


The angels are called "sons of God" because they come directly from God. Angels came directly from God. Adam came directly from God. Jesus came directly from God. Mankind is not directly from God because we are descendants of Adam. The angels and Adam and Jesus are all called "sons" of God because they came directly from Him. This is the consistent Biblical usage of this term.


Exactly. The angels in heaven do not marry...because they are obedient to God. Fallen angels however are disobedient:

Jude 6-7 "Angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire."

There it is, right there in Jude; Angels indulged in gross immorality just as Sodom and Gomorrah did. Peter elaborates on this subject in chapter 2 of his 2nd epistle.

You did not debunk much here but moved into a false narrative

in your own words you spoke of Jesus unbiblically.

The angels and Adam and Jesus are all called "sons" of God because they came directly from Him.

This is wrong.

The very Word of God Genesis chapter 1 and John chapter one blow your idea out of the water.

Adam was not eternal angels were not eternal until God made them that way


The SON of God the Second Person of the Trinity IS and has always been. Anything else you said after that is irrelevant

 

[luigi]

To marry means to join together. When the angels, who are spiritual entities, married the daughters of men, they inhabited and took residence within that individual. They would have influenced the thoughts of those possessed women, which in turn those women would have conveyed their thoughts, influencing their children who would become great men (giants of industry) among men.

 

[CS1]

To marry means to join together. When the angels, who are spiritual entities, married the daughters of men, they inhabited and took residence within that individual. They would have influenced the thoughts of those possessed women, which in turn those women would have conveyed their thoughts, influencing their children who would become great men (giants of industry) among men.

that is speculation that angels had sex with early women.

 

[luigi]

that is speculation that angels had sex with early women.

You are twisting what I wrote to mean sex. Angels are non corporal entities, and did not have sex. They inhabited the women they chose. Did you ever hear of possession?

 

[CS1]

You are twisting what I wrote to mean sex. Angels are non corporal entities, and did not have sex. They inhabited the women they chose. Did you ever hear of possession?

Ok understand yet the point is sons of God also speaks of gods, angels and earthly man. the word "god" is not a singular meaning it is plural. So when you read gen 6 you must use what contextually fits and bring clarity to the context.

You can make Genesis 6 normative when it is descriptive.

It is asserted in the book itself that its author was Enoch, before the biblical flood.

That is not the case so you must establish the writer and the context even if there are some true statements.

many believe it was written in the Second Century and NOT by Enoch.