Jesus and Paul -two different gospels?
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Abraham believed in the Gospel of Spiritual Circumcision, for he is the Father of the Family of Circumcision. This Circumcision, a Holy Operation of Faith made not by human hands, is only available through Christ.
His descendants will be countless for two reasons:
1. Abraham is the father of Faith to the Jews who have been physically circumcised.
2. Abraham is the Father of Faith to all whose Hearts have been Spiritually Circumcised by Christ.
Romans 4:11-12, 16-17 NKJV - "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only [are] of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham [had while still] uncircumcised. ... 16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, "I have made you a father of many nations") in the presence of Him whom he believed--God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did . . ."
Covenant Family of Circumcision:
Genesis 17:14 NLT - "Any male who fails to be circumcised will be cut off from the covenant family for breaking the covenant."
His descendants will be countless for two reasons:
1. Abraham is the father of Faith to the Jews who have been physically circumcised.
2. Abraham is the Father of Faith to all whose Hearts have been Spiritually Circumcised by Christ.
Romans 4:11-12, 16-17 NKJV - "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only [are] of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham [had while still] uncircumcised. ... 16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, "I have made you a father of many nations") in the presence of Him whom he believed--God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did . . ."
Covenant Family of Circumcision:
Genesis 17:14 NLT - "Any male who fails to be circumcised will be cut off from the covenant family for breaking the covenant."
The process of Salvation is mentioned quite a bit in the Old Testament (this is a small nugget). Two of the best are in Ezekiel chapters 11 and 36. Here they are:
Ezekiel 11:19-20 KJV - "And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God."
This is so important, that the Lord has Ezekiel record this Core of the Bible concept a second time, nearly Word for Holy Word.
Ezekiel 36:25-27 KJV - "Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."
Check this out: If we're called to have the same Faith as Abraham, which Paul clearly teaches in Romans, and if our models of Faith can be found in Hebrews 11, why would we not think that these Ezekiel passages that clearly point to the Spiritual Circumcision outlined in Colossians 2:9-15, didn't happen to these men and women of ancient days? Think about it: If Jesus lived before Abraham, and if Jesus is the only one who can lift the Curse that has befallen all of Creation, then the Holy men and women of the past all received the same Circumcision of Heart described in Colossians 2:9-15. There is only one Faith. Jesus Circumcises the Heart of the Sinful Nature. Blood Sacrifice pays the debt for sin. Jesus sends the Holy Spirit. Jesus grants the ability to repent (which means to change and sin no more). All of these gifts were available to everyone from the beginning of humanity.
This means that the Heart of Abel, a Prophet of God, was one of the first to be cleansed of the Sin Nature. And as Exodus 33:19 says, the Lord will grant His Grace and Mercy upon anyone He chooses . . . and that means we are in no position to argue.
Exodus 33:19 KJV - "And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy."
Ezekiel 11:19-20 KJV - "And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God."
This is so important, that the Lord has Ezekiel record this Core of the Bible concept a second time, nearly Word for Holy Word.
Ezekiel 36:25-27 KJV - "Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."
Check this out: If we're called to have the same Faith as Abraham, which Paul clearly teaches in Romans, and if our models of Faith can be found in Hebrews 11, why would we not think that these Ezekiel passages that clearly point to the Spiritual Circumcision outlined in Colossians 2:9-15, didn't happen to these men and women of ancient days? Think about it: If Jesus lived before Abraham, and if Jesus is the only one who can lift the Curse that has befallen all of Creation, then the Holy men and women of the past all received the same Circumcision of Heart described in Colossians 2:9-15. There is only one Faith. Jesus Circumcises the Heart of the Sinful Nature. Blood Sacrifice pays the debt for sin. Jesus sends the Holy Spirit. Jesus grants the ability to repent (which means to change and sin no more). All of these gifts were available to everyone from the beginning of humanity.
This means that the Heart of Abel, a Prophet of God, was one of the first to be cleansed of the Sin Nature. And as Exodus 33:19 says, the Lord will grant His Grace and Mercy upon anyone He chooses . . . and that means we are in no position to argue.
Exodus 33:19 KJV - "And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy."
Pretty much. The Core Message of the Bible deals with the Heart. The healing that the Tree of Life could have given to Adam and Eve after sinning . . . that Tree is Christ, and in by eating of His Tree, their hearts would have been lifted of the Curse they had just incurred, and lived forever. They would have been restored . . . a process that only Christ can offer.
Think about all the healings in the New Testament. What are they really about? Aren't they but a reflection of what was taking place within their Hearts? Jesus couldn't heal anyone without Faith . . . meaning, those who were healed were believers. This means that those who Jesus healed, their hearts were Circumcised by Christ first . . . for He already [knew] them. Therefore, these healings are a reflection of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which is the purpose and process of Circumcising Hearts and reconciling all of Creation unto Himself. John chapter 9 deals with these physical healings that are a reflection of the inner, Spiritual healing.
Our Bible is just shocking in its depth!
Think about all the healings in the New Testament. What are they really about? Aren't they but a reflection of what was taking place within their Hearts? Jesus couldn't heal anyone without Faith . . . meaning, those who were healed were believers. This means that those who Jesus healed, their hearts were Circumcised by Christ first . . . for He already [knew] them. Therefore, these healings are a reflection of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which is the purpose and process of Circumcising Hearts and reconciling all of Creation unto Himself. John chapter 9 deals with these physical healings that are a reflection of the inner, Spiritual healing.
Our Bible is just shocking in its depth!
Ahh . . . it is the easiest thing in the world to see, understand, and even talk about. But the Lord has put Spiritual Blinders upon every soul of whom He has yet to expose Himself. This is all fodder to those who the Lord has left to remain under the Curse of Confusion (if we can use that name), the terrible Sin Nature that is associated with our minds and souls. When the veil of Moses was lowered and the common Israelite could see the radiant Glory, they could understand the Spiritual things he said. But when he lifted the veil to cover that Glory, the common Israelite could not understand. This Veil is a reflection of the Curse of Confusion.
2 Corinthians 3:13-18 NIV - "We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit."
2 Corinthians 3:13-18 NIV - "We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit."
It is a false Gospel that does not include the Circumcision of Christ. Scripture is clear, that without this Circumcision, there can be no Holy Salvation. Yet, no pastor teaches it, and quite frankly, it is hated teaching because it revolves around obedience. Those whose Hearts have been Circumcised of the Sin Nature are reborn into a Creation that begins to Transform, and that's another way of saying that a person is put on a path of being taught to no longer sin. So if the Gospel revolves around obedience, then churches would be required to follow the model of Paul, which is to remove those from membership who refuse to turn from their sin . . . thus keeping the church "Body" as Pure as possible. What's the problem with this? If we start kicking out all who refuse to obey, there wouldn't be any money in the collection plate, and if there isn't money in the collection plate, kids won't go to college.
The above is the general description of just about every church in the world. It's nearly all apostate.
The above is the general description of just about every church in the world. It's nearly all apostate.
2 Corinthians 3:14-18 NIV - 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
Colossians 2:11-15 NIV - 11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
Kjv
11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12¶Seeing then that we have such hope, WE USE great plainness of speech:
13And NOT AS MOSES , which put a vail over his face, that the children of ISRAEL could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14But THEIR MINDS ( ISRAEL ) were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the OLD TESTAMENT ( WHO WOULD BE READING THE OT? WESTERN AMERICAN GENTILES ? ) ; which vail is done away in Christ.
15But even unto this day, when MOSES IS READ , the vail is upon THEIR ( ISRAEL/ JEWS ) heart.
16Nevertheless when IT ( ISRAEL ) shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
CONTEXT .
11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12¶Seeing then that we have such hope, WE USE great plainness of speech:
13And NOT AS MOSES , which put a vail over his face, that the children of ISRAEL could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14But THEIR MINDS ( ISRAEL ) were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the OLD TESTAMENT ( WHO WOULD BE READING THE OT? WESTERN AMERICAN GENTILES ? ) ; which vail is done away in Christ.
15But even unto this day, when MOSES IS READ , the vail is upon THEIR ( ISRAEL/ JEWS ) heart.
16Nevertheless when IT ( ISRAEL ) shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
CONTEXT .
Kjv .
11¶In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
This is After the cross . Abraham is before the cross. This happened to no one before the cross..Thats painfully obvious in verse 14 .
11¶In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
This is After the cross . Abraham is before the cross. This happened to no one before the cross..Thats painfully obvious in verse 14 .
Thanks for the all-caps emphasis on the word context . . . as if I weren't very intelligent.
You're right. I included the context and it's in verse 18. I'll give it to you again.
18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit." - "We all" is identified in Roman 2:28-29 if you're interested.
I'm sorry, but I didn't join this site to get into these kinds of wild "teacher teaching teacher" sessions, to find out who is the smartest, or most correct. I'm not here to debate (makes my skin crawl because it doesn't come from the Spirit of Love) . . . but to offer what I believe (be it right or wrong), just as you are here to offer. I hope that we can change our tone. Thanks.
You're right. I included the context and it's in verse 18. I'll give it to you again.
18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit." - "We all" is identified in Roman 2:28-29 if you're interested.
I'm sorry, but I didn't join this site to get into these kinds of wild "teacher teaching teacher" sessions, to find out who is the smartest, or most correct. I'm not here to debate (makes my skin crawl because it doesn't come from the Spirit of Love) . . . but to offer what I believe (be it right or wrong), just as you are here to offer. I hope that we can change our tone. Thanks.
Apologies if that's how your understanding me . I put the caps on as I don't claim to be the best at making myself clear.
Verse 18 .
16Nevertheless when IT ( Israel ) shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
1 BUT WE ALL , with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Ok Paul is contrasting Israel as being ' veiled ' with those already saved .
In verse 18 he says BUT WE ALL .
Israel as explained in Romans 9, 10 ,11are under temporary judicial hardening by God due to thier rebellion ( unbelief ) So there is a ' veil ' over them ,until they turn to the Lord, which they do so in the future.
Verse 18 .
16Nevertheless when IT ( Israel ) shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
1 BUT WE ALL , with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Ok Paul is contrasting Israel as being ' veiled ' with those already saved .
In verse 18 he says BUT WE ALL .
Israel as explained in Romans 9, 10 ,11are under temporary judicial hardening by God due to thier rebellion ( unbelief ) So there is a ' veil ' over them ,until they turn to the Lord, which they do so in the future.