The Books of Enoch.

[Pilgrimshope]

The book of Enoch is mentioned in the New Testament, and I believe that it was taught to the Jews equally as much as the other books in the old testament.
Was seriously leaning towards studying it. Any words of wisdom from the audience?

Pray and then , when you study it , receive it as an ancient writing dated to about 250-300 bc and not as you would the book of Matthew or John or
Many others that invite and require your faith

I agree that the disciples would have studied many texts that we aren’t even now aware of including enochs texts in some form . I believe there is probably value but would say you shouldn’t abandon the things in scripture for anything you learn in other places

but that’s the word of a fellow student of scripture and historical literature contemporary to biblical texts

Jewish writings between the new and Old Testament while we shouldn’t consider them scripture they also give a very historically accurate account of the time span between Malachi and Matthew and what was happening in Israel

things such as Antiochus defilement of the Jewish religion and temple I feel as if there’s value but wouldn’t let it construct your beliefs

 

[Nehemiah6]

This is strong evidence that the interpretation is false.

Which interpretation is false? Equating "the sons of God" with evil angels? Both Peter and Jude equate these evil angels with the angels "which kept not their first estate", and the context in both books relates to sexual sins and sexual deviation.

2 PETER 2: THE ANGELS THAT SINNED SEXUALLY ARE CHAINED IN TARTARUS
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell [TARTARUS], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; [Note: the next verse makes the connection]
5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation [lifestyle] of the wicked:
8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds)
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

We should note the various terms used for sexual perversion and unlawful sexual unions in this passage. This is the first and only mention of Tartarus, which is reserved for those angels which had unlawful sex with human women. (Had the KJV translators simply transliterated that word instead of saying "hell", it would have avoided a lot of confusion).

Those angels (called "sons of God" because angels are direct creations of God) were a part of the "old word" (the Antediluvian world) which is mentioned immediately thereafter. Sodom and Gomorrah are mentioned next, and again unlawful sex is mentioned along the judgment of those two wicked cities. Then Peter connects those two examples with the false prophets of his day (probably Gnostics) who "walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness" (fornication, and possibly homosexuality). What Peter is saying is that if God spared neither those evil angels nor the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, we can be assured that these false prophets and teachers who encourage fornication will surely be punished.

When we turn to Jude we see that he is saying almost the exact same things and calling those angels "the angels which kept not their first (angelic) state":
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness [in Tartarus] unto the judgment of the great day.
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

"Going after strange flesh" or unlawful sexual unions is the theme in both passages, therefore the book of Enoch is fully vindicated in the matter.

 

[Scribe]

How do you know Jude wasn't speaking out of Divine inspiration of what Enoch prophesied? It doesn't prove one iota that the Book of Enoch was inspired of God.

If you research the actual information that we have in extant you will discover that it is agreed upon that they were written between 200 - 100 BC and by more than one author. Enoch who was taken 3000 years before? Therefore the fact that these authors would commit the immoral act of lying about who wrote it should not be ignored. Then it is also a known fact that it contradicts what the bible teaches.

I always get a yucky feeling talking about this topic. Like God does not want me to waste my time trying to explain it. So I will leave it and trust that those who seek the Lord will have the Spirit guide them into all truth.

 

[Magenta]

"Going after strange flesh" or unlawful sexual unions is the theme in both
passages, therefore the book of Enoch is fully vindicated in the matter.

Going after strange flesh denotes homosexuality (unnatural /deviant sexual appetite/behavior).

@Scribe ... and anyone else interested: here (<= link) is another explanatory page on the matter

 

[KingdomBrat]

Strange flesh = angel manifested body + human body

 

[Magenta]

Also? There is nowhere in the Bible where demons are called 'sons,' and especially not 'sons of God.'

Another informative page

 

[SophieT]

You think Nephilim were produced by 2 human beings?

No dude. It seems you might though. You believe that 'nobles created giants as per your post. I said the opposite which does not take an IQ of 140 to recognize, so let's not get cute here and ask questions, that are not really questions, but statements contrived to create defensiveness on the part of the person they are addressed to.

 

[KingdomBrat]

No dude. It seems you might though. You believe that 'nobles created giants as per your post. I said the opposite which does not take an IQ of 140 to recognize, so let's not get cute here and ask questions, that are not really questions, but statements contrived to create defensiveness on the part of the person they are addressed to.

יחיד = "Nobles" is the translation of the Hebrew cherem [Herem or cherem (Hebrew: חרם, ḥērem)] (occurring only in the plural) = Herem or cherem (Hebrew: חרם, ḥērem), as used in the Tanakh, means 'devote' or 'destroy' in an act of war.


Ultimately, the use of Nobles [specifically Cherem] here in Genesis 6 is to [SIGNIFY] an Act of War.

The Ancient Hebrew [יחיד] wants us to view this as War from the Fallen Sons of God (Job gives 3 examples) upon God Himself by trying to [Destroy God's Creation of Humanity]. This WAR ended with the Flood of Noah!

2 Peter 2 explains the conditions of the [sinful Earth], (before the LAW), including examples of Sodom, and sexual perversions, lusting after [STRANGE flesh (Angel with human)], and the Disobedience by those Angels still chained in a Darkness you can feel engulfed all around you like it's touching you until the Day of judgement!

 

[iamsoandso]

I don't know who he is. Megenta posted it. I read it and passed it on. It is a collection of the same information I have discovered by reading about it when the subject has come up in the past.

There are much more scholarly papers that cite all their sources that one can find doing a Google search. I liked that one because it was simple for people and covers all the important points.

One thing a pastor friend told me that I agree with. In 17 years of pastoring he has never had even one person ask him about the book of Enoch and not one person try to talk to him about angels marrying humans and having giants. Not one. His point is that most people don't care about this topic and would think it has nothing to do with their walk with Christ. I found that insightful.

sorry for not responding till now we've been checking pipes,cars ect. from the ice storm(Texas)

I understand you were quoting her post on the matter but when I googled J.James to see who he was I couldn't find much other than his own website, but no credentials on him. If any of us Google things about Enoch,giants ect. then there are tons of things we will find but it's mostly as if we can "find what we're after" it seems. Why I say this is it seems if we search for proof that supports one side the web is full of scholarly papers in it's support, again if we search in hope of disproving it we find the same on it's behalf.

To me as I stated in another thread were we(me/you) discussed this I cant see this as anything new(modern day) because there are to many books,mentions about the angel,giant ect. in history that speak of it, (1 Enoch,Jubilees,Yonatan ben Uziel, Josephus, Irenaeus,Barnabas ect.).. So it isn't a new concept of thinking but instead an old manner of thinking by the proofs of the many things written of old.

I am quite fascinated with the subject because as I stated in the other thread it seems that it does not follow any path of eschatological camps positions in that futurist,preterist,Amils ect. usually argue against one another but in the case of Enoch,angels,giants ect. there is a mixture of camps against it and a mixture for it(confusion over it). I notice that there is always an assertion that there is undeniable proof one way or the other but it's never given in the many threads so they go on and on. It seems to me that if the Hebrew/Jewish people did not believe this was a hybrid type event in Gen. 6:4 then all of the books written before Christ and afterward would not exist but seeing they do exist it can only mean that they in fact did believe this and then afterward(post Jesus) arranged an Cannon excluding it's references.

 

[Scribe]

sorry for not responding till now we've been checking pipes,cars ect. from the ice storm(Texas)

I understand you were quoting her post on the matter but when I googled J.James to see who he was I couldn't find much other than his own website, but no credentials on him. If any of us Google things about Enoch,giants ect. then there are tons of things we will find but it's mostly as if we can "find what we're after" it seems. Why I say this is it seems if we search for proof that supports one side the web is full of scholarly papers in it's support, again if we search in hope of disproving it we find the same on it's behalf.

To me as I stated in another thread were we(me/you) discussed this I cant see this as anything new(modern day) because there are to many books,mentions about the angel,giant ect. in history that speak of it, (1 Enoch,Jubilees,Yonatan ben Uziel, Josephus, Irenaeus,Barnabas ect.).. So it isn't a new concept of thinking but instead an old manner of thinking by the proofs of the many things written of old.

I am quite fascinated with the subject because as I stated in the other thread it seems that it does not follow any path of eschatological camps positions in that futurist,preterist,Amils ect. usually argue against one another but in the case of Enoch,angels,giants ect. there is a mixture of camps against it and a mixture for it(confusion over it). I notice that there is always an assertion that there is undeniable proof one way or the other but it's never given in the many threads so they go on and on. It seems to me that if the Hebrew/Jewish people did not believe this was a hybrid type event in Gen. 6:4 then all of the books written before Christ and afterward would not exist but seeing they do exist it can only mean that they in fact did believe this and then afterward(post Jesus) arranged an Cannon excluding it's references.

It is the phenomenon of conspiracy theories. Around 200 - 100 BC They invented a bunch of details not found in the Bible, based on misunderstanding, and a desire to want to construct a past that never occurred and once the conspiracy theory was invented and shared it took on a life of it's own being kept alive by those who WANT it to be true; therefore no amount of facts at the time about Enoch having been taken 3000 years prior to this writing bothered them. Facts are irrelevant to conspiracy theorists.

Every generation since has had their conspiracy theorist who love this kind of stuff and keep it alive.

One thing that I have noticed, is that every person I have meet in real life church scenarios who attempt to propagate this theory are not living godly Christian lives and usually fall away before long after I have heard them promoting this theory. These kinds of wild theories seem to be a distraction by the enemy and they love the sensationalism and science fiction, imaginative story line behind the theory rather than the scripture truth. They should have been focusing on scriptures that applied to their character and they would not have fallen away but were wasting time "researching" Smithsonian's attempt to hide giant bones!
Where are these people now? All of them have fallen off the path and I saw it coming.

There lack of discernment as to what is scripture and what it a conspiracy theory is the underlying issue that should be addressed and I would suggest that when someone tries to get you to believe these wild "angel" stories, that they cannot possibly know from scripture, that you steer them back to the heart issues by asking them about their thoughts on how to hear from God when we pray. If they have no time for a conversation like that it is a sign that they are using these sensational interpretations of scripture as a distraction.

 

[KingdomBrat]

יחיד = "Nobles" is the translation of the Hebrew cherem [Herem or cherem (Hebrew: חרם, ḥērem)] (occurring only in the plural) = Herem or cherem (Hebrew: חרם, ḥērem), as used in the Tanakh, means 'devote' or 'destroy' in an act of war.


Ultimately, the use of Nobles [specifically Cherem] here in Genesis 6 is to [SIGNIFY] an Act of War.

The Ancient Hebrew [יחיד] wants us to view this as War from the Fallen Sons of God (Job gives 3 examples) upon God Himself by trying to [Destroy God's Creation of Humanity]. This WAR ended with the Flood of Noah!

2 Peter 2 explains the conditions of the [sinful Earth], (before the LAW), including examples of Sodom, and sexual perversions, lusting after [STRANGE flesh (Angel with human)], and the Disobedience by those Angels still chained in a Darkness you can feel engulfed all around you like it's touching you until the Day of judgement!

If we understand that the Fallen Angels created the Act of War by breeding Giants to be demonic and destroy God's Creation, we understand why [After] the Flood from the lineage of Ham, we see God ordering Joshua to destroy the enemy-their possessions-everything-make it completely disappear, we see the Kingdom of Israel [Saul] is commanded to utterly destroy certain enemies like Amalekites. This is all remnant of that Act of War.

 

[GaryA]

For what it is worth...

The phrase 'the seventh from Adam' in Jude 1:14 indicates to us that 'Enoch' in that same verse is referring to the man Enoch and not a writing from a book.

Therefore, it may be assumed that the man Enoch prophesied...

This alone does not give any/the "book of Enoch" an inspired-level credence.

No specific mention of any "book of Enoch" is made - unless it may be assumed that - in the context of all scripture (or, at least, the New Testament), any-and-all references to prophetic sayings in scripture are defined by scripture itself to be references to prophecy in a written form. Otherwise, we may only assume that it was verbal.

None of this has any bearing on how much truth may be found in any/the "book of Enoch" except that the prophetic statement made in Jude may be assumed to be true.

And, to whatever degree it matches a prophetic statement in any/the "book of Enoch" only validates the book by/to the extent of that statement.

The validity of the remainder of such a book must rest on the merits of other things - which may include other verses/passages of scripture.

The book as a whole may only be determined to be 'inspired' if it is shown that the entirety of the book was in fact written by the man Enoch or someone else who was specifically declared to be a prophet of God by scripture.

 

[KingdomBrat]

For what it is worth...

The phrase 'the seventh from Adam' in Jude 1:14 indicates to us that 'Enoch' in that same verse is referring to the man Enoch and not a writing from a book.

Therefore, it may be assumed that the man Enoch prophesied...

This alone does not give any/the "book of Enoch" an inspired-level credence.

No specific mention of any "book of Enoch" is made - unless it may be assumed that - in the context of all scripture (or, at least, the New Testament), any-and-all references to prophetic sayings in scripture are defined by scripture itself to be references to prophecy in a written form. Otherwise, we may only assume that it was verbal.

None of this has any bearing on how much truth may be found in any/the "book of Enoch" except that the prophetic statement made in Jude may be assumed to be true.

And, to whatever degree it matches a prophetic statement in any/the "book of Enoch" only validates the book by/to the extent of that statement.

The validity of the remainder of such a book must rest on the merits of other things - which may include other verses/passages of scripture.

The book as a whole may only be determined to be 'inspired' if it is shown that the entirety of the book was in fact written by the man Enoch or someone else who was specifically declared to be a prophet of God by scripture.

It's a hard pill to swallow when looking at portions of Enoch that seem so far fetched just beyond imaginary, even though, there are hardcore clear evidence where either what he said and was passed down found its way from cover to cover within the pages of the Bible.

But then when we think of when Enoch was born. He witnessed great things. He witnessed [Men of Renown], He witnessed Ancient Cities we will never know about on this [side] of Glory, He witnessed many of the [Great Ancient Beginnings] we've discovered and still searching for, He knew the Great Mesopotamia Metropolis where Noah would one day be Commanded to build the Ark, He witnessed Genesis 6 and the Nephilim. And sometimes I just wonder, could Enoch, or whomever, be describing who, what type of Angel, and their Station in the Commandment of God was, who were participants of this War on God procreating with human women.

Could Enoch's mentioned Angels, be the fallen angels 2 Peter 2 describes?

 

[Edify]

The book of Enoch is mentioned in the New Testament, and I believe that it was taught to the Jews equally as much as the other books in the old testament.
Was seriously leaning towards studying it. Any words of wisdom from the audience?

I would not recommend it.
The book has multiple sections by different authors, & believed to have been written at different dates. For that reason alone I wouldn't recommend it.
The church has a tough enough time discerning what the canon has to say, let alone something unverified. I wouldn't use it for historical research.

 

[Magenta]

I am quite fascinated with the subject because as I stated in the other thread it seems that it does not follow any path of eschatological camps positions in that futurist, preterist, Amils etc.. usually argue against one another but in the case of Enoch, angels, giants etc.. there is a mixture of camps against it and a mixture for it(confusion over it). I notice that there is always an assertion that there is undeniable proof one way or the other but it's never given in the many threads so they go on and on. It seems to me that if the Hebrew/Jewish people did not believe this was a hybrid type event in Gen. 6:4 then all of the books written before Christ and afterward would not exist but seeing they do exist it can only mean that they in fact did believe this and then afterward (post Jesus) arranged an Canon excluding it's references.

Sure, people who did believe wrote books in support of their beliefs, but that does not mean all believed that way.

As to the book of Enoch being found with the Dead Sea Scrolls: the Dead Sea Scrolls contain all kinds of documents, not just Scripture. For instance, calendars, commentaries, songbooks, community regulations, and/or historical documents unearthed at Qumran should also not be considered to be part of the Bible. The Qumran library was much more than just Biblical manuscripts

 

[Edify]

For what it is worth...

The phrase 'the seventh from Adam' in Jude 1:14 indicates to us that 'Enoch' in that same verse is referring to the man Enoch and not a writing from a book.

Therefore, it may be assumed that the man Enoch prophesied...

This alone does not give any/the "book of Enoch" an inspired-level credence.

No specific mention of any "book of Enoch" is made - unless it may be assumed that - in the context of all scripture (or, at least, the New Testament), any-and-all references to prophetic sayings in scripture are defined by scripture itself to be references to prophecy in a written form. Otherwise, we may only assume that it was verbal.

None of this has any bearing on how much truth may be found in any/the "book of Enoch" except that the prophetic statement made in Jude may be assumed to be true.

And, to whatever degree it matches a prophetic statement in any/the "book of Enoch" only validates the book by/to the extent of that statement.

The validity of the remainder of such a book must rest on the merits of other things - which may include other verses/passages of scripture.

The book as a whole may only be determined to be 'inspired' if it is shown that the entirety of the book was in fact written by the man Enoch or someone else who was specifically declared to be a prophet of God by scripture.

Since it is true that anyone's writings before Noah would have perished in the flood, none of Enoch's writings are original. The only reason we have the first 5 books of the Bible is because God had Moses write them after the flood. I also don't see any OT writers quote any writings of Enoch. If these writings were really of God I would expect that.

 

[Magenta]

Of the Apocrypha, Josephus says: “We do not possess myriads
of inconsistent books, conflicting with each other. Our books,
those which are justly accredited, are but two and twenty
[the equivalent of the 39 books of the Hebrew Scriptures
according to modern division], and contain the record of all time.”

 

[Magenta]

Since it is true that anyone's writings before Noah would have perished in the flood, none of Enoch's writings are original. The only reason we have the first 5 books of the Bible is because God had Moses write them after the flood. I also don't see any OT writers quote any writings of Enoch. If these writings were really of God I would expect that.

It is believed Enoch was written in the intertestamental period.

The time between the last writings of the Old Testament and the
appearance of Christ is known as the “intertestamental” (or “between
the testaments”) period. It lasted from the prophet Malachi’s time
(about 400 BC) to the preaching of John the Baptist (about AD 25)

 

[iamsoandso]

Sure, people who did believe wrote books in support of their beliefs, but that does not mean all believed that way.

As to the book of Enoch being found with the Dead Sea Scrolls: the Dead Sea Scrolls contain all kinds of documents, not just Scripture. For instance, calendars, commentaries, songbooks, community regulations, and/or historical documents unearthed at Qumran should also not be considered to be part of the Bible. The Qumran library was much more than just Biblical manuscripts

Well I understand your point but what if we look at the way the Jews/Hebrews looked at other books we see as Cannon for instance Daniel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Daniel (I see Daniel as inspired Cannon but am using it as an example)...

The reason why is that the Jews/Hebrews view Daniel in the same similar way in that it was not written by Daniel himself nor do they see it as in the group of "Cannon of Prophets"(we do) to them as far as they know(think) Daniel is a group of writings put together in a "book" by multiple authors over time. Esdras is another book(S) that to them has multiple authors(and other Hebrew books) why I mention Esdras is that in it it says the "seventy books" rewritten last were to be secret and only given to the wise (they include Enoch in this group is why I bring it up) see the list in this article(not that I endorse some of these) https://orthodoxessenejudaism.wordp...he-70-apocrypha-books-of-ezra/comment-page-1/

 

[Edify]

It is believed Enoch was written in the intertestamental period.

The time between the last writings of the Old Testament and the
appearance of Christ is known as the “intertestamental” (or “between
the testaments”) period. It lasted from the prophet Malachi’s time
(about 400 BC) to the preaching of John the Baptist (about AD 25)

Is that also the time the 70 elders of Israel changed into the Sanhedrin? When pharisees & saddusees were formed? When the traditions of the elders were written?
If so, I wouldn't touch writings from that period with a thousand foot pole!