Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.
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FreeGrace2 said:
There's a whole lot more in the Bible than just the truth about Jesus' Second Advent.
Uh, no. No one "ensures their own salvation". That was taken care of completely by Jesus alone. Salvation is a free gift. All you can do is receive it on the basis of trust alone in Christ alone.
First, the tribulation doesn't occur "in the age to come". The Tribulation occurs in THIS AGE. In fact, it's the END of THIS AGE.
Second, no believer will take the mark, since Jesus was real clear when He said those He gives eternal life "shall never perish". But it seems you don't believe what Jesus said in John 10:28.
The clear point of v.28 is that the basis for "never perishing" is on WHAT Jesus DID, not what any human does.
iow, Jesus GIVES and recipients SHALL NEVER PERISH. It couldn't be any more clear than that.
So, what about this theory about believers taking the mark. Don't you realize that IF IF IF that were to happen, then what Jesus said would prove to be UNTRUE. Do you believe that Jesus would say anything that was UNTRUE? I sure don't.
So, since believers will be on earth during the tribulation, what's to keep one of them from taking the mark? The Bible clearly teaches about God's discipline. Paul summarized God's discipline in 1 Cor 11:30; weakness, sickness and physical death. Do you see the progression here?
Sometimes, the discipline goes straight to death, as in the case of Ananias and Sapphira. So, by the time the marrk of the beast will be available, God will have "gleaned" all the unstable, unfaithful, or disobedient believers from the earth through the work of the Tribulation. So only the faithful believers will be left, who won't take the mark, but rather will die the martyr's death.
Finally, your comments about Rev 14 and speaking to an angel is rather snarky. Jesus DID do all the work.
Why do you disagree with the Bible?
There's a whole lot more in the Bible than just the truth about Jesus' Second Advent.
Uh, no. No one "ensures their own salvation". That was taken care of completely by Jesus alone. Salvation is a free gift. All you can do is receive it on the basis of trust alone in Christ alone.
OK, let's unpack this a bit.
First, the tribulation doesn't occur "in the age to come". The Tribulation occurs in THIS AGE. In fact, it's the END of THIS AGE.
Second, no believer will take the mark, since Jesus was real clear when He said those He gives eternal life "shall never perish". But it seems you don't believe what Jesus said in John 10:28.
The clear point of v.28 is that the basis for "never perishing" is on WHAT Jesus DID, not what any human does.
iow, Jesus GIVES and recipients SHALL NEVER PERISH. It couldn't be any more clear than that.
So, what about this theory about believers taking the mark. Don't you realize that IF IF IF that were to happen, then what Jesus said would prove to be UNTRUE. Do you believe that Jesus would say anything that was UNTRUE? I sure don't.
So, since believers will be on earth during the tribulation, what's to keep one of them from taking the mark? The Bible clearly teaches about God's discipline. Paul summarized God's discipline in 1 Cor 11:30; weakness, sickness and physical death. Do you see the progression here?
Sometimes, the discipline goes straight to death, as in the case of Ananias and Sapphira. So, by the time the marrk of the beast will be available, God will have "gleaned" all the unstable, unfaithful, or disobedient believers from the earth through the work of the Tribulation. So only the faithful believers will be left, who won't take the mark, but rather will die the martyr's death.
Finally, your comments about Rev 14 and speaking to an angel is rather snarky. Jesus DID do all the work.
Why do you disagree with the Bible?
FreeGrace2 said:
God kept Israel out of the "hour of trial" of the 10 plagues in Egypt, all the while living IN Egypt.
The point is that being "protected" means they were kept from the hour of trial.
When Jesus goes back to earth, they will ALL accompany Him. To get their immortal resurrection bodies.
God kept Israel out of the "hour of trial" of the 10 plagues in Egypt, all the while living IN Egypt.
How can you argue with my comment? God DID keep them from all of the plagues, even though they were IN Egypt.
The point is that being "protected" means they were kept from the hour of trial.
Sure. No argument here. Which is exactly my point. Believers in the Trib will be protected by God.
On what basis (Scripture) do you base this opinion on?
The Bible does speak of believers in heaven singing praise. What makes you think they are raptured believers? Believers (saved people) have been dying and going to heaven since time began. There will be a huge number in heaven singing praises. Which has nothing to do with Jesus going to earth.
When Jesus goes back to earth, they will ALL accompany Him. To get their immortal resurrection bodies.
FreeGrace2 said:
What a blatant untruth. Of course I have. I point out in EVERY such verse that there is NO mention of a U-turn back to heaven.
And NONE of the pre-tribbers (of which I was one) can provide any U-turn verse.
Wow. No one "omits" pre-trib rapture verses. There are NONE. You think there are, but none of them say anything about going up to heaven (U-turn), so they AREN'T pre-trib verses anyway. Your argument is specious.
No. The heart of the biblical doctrine is:
1. Acts 3:21 says in the Greek that Jesus REMAINS/STAYS in heaven "until the times of restoration".
2. Rev 20 speaks of the resurrection AFTER the Trib as the FIRST resurrection. There are NO 2 "first" resurrections. That is silly.
3. There are ZERO verses that say Jesus resurrects/raptures believers and takes them back to heaven.
No pre-tribber can refute any of this.
Refute any of my points, using Scripture, of course.
And, please, provide ANY verse that says that Jesus resurrects/raptures believers and takes them back to heaven.
That is the ONLY WAY to prove that there is a pre-trib rapture.
Without such a verse, all you've got is a construct. "To create (an argument or a sentence, for example) by systematically arranging ideas or terms."
What you lack is any concrete verses about Jesus making a U-turn back to heaven.
What a blatant untruth. Of course I have. I point out in EVERY such verse that there is NO mention of a U-turn back to heaven.
And NONE of the pre-tribbers (of which I was one) can provide any U-turn verse.
Wow. No one "omits" pre-trib rapture verses. There are NONE. You think there are, but none of them say anything about going up to heaven (U-turn), so they AREN'T pre-trib verses anyway. Your argument is specious.
No. The heart of the biblical doctrine is:
1. Acts 3:21 says in the Greek that Jesus REMAINS/STAYS in heaven "until the times of restoration".
2. Rev 20 speaks of the resurrection AFTER the Trib as the FIRST resurrection. There are NO 2 "first" resurrections. That is silly.
3. There are ZERO verses that say Jesus resurrects/raptures believers and takes them back to heaven.
No pre-tribber can refute any of this.
OK, let's test this theory of yours.
Refute any of my points, using Scripture, of course.
And, please, provide ANY verse that says that Jesus resurrects/raptures believers and takes them back to heaven.
That is the ONLY WAY to prove that there is a pre-trib rapture.
Without such a verse, all you've got is a construct. "To create (an argument or a sentence, for example) by systematically arranging ideas or terms."
What you lack is any concrete verses about Jesus making a U-turn back to heaven.
Mat 24
" ...from one end of HEAVEN to the other.."
Gathering in heaven by angels. Not from earth....not by Jesus.
Truly a pretrib rapture
The martyrs are not allowed from under the altar in heaven.
Then.....
The innumerable number are martyrs and are before the throne in heaven.
The ones under the altar are told "... Till your number is complete"
That alone refutes any hope you have to see the church beaten and whipped by God.
Mark 13 paraphrases Matthew 24 in more plainer terms. The rapture definitely occurs from Earth to heaven, not the throne of God heaven, but rather to the sky (heaven.)
Mark we:26-27
26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
I'm just going to keep posting this here every so often:
Every single rapture verse is set in context of the second coming of Christ. When Christ returns He causes the rapture to happen and this occurs after the great tribulation.
Read Matthew 24-25, Mark 13, and Like 21 repeatedly until you understand this.
Every single rapture verse is set in context of the second coming of Christ. When Christ returns He causes the rapture to happen and this occurs after the great tribulation.
Read Matthew 24-25, Mark 13, and Like 21 repeatedly until you understand this.
""..God will have "gleaned" all the unstable, unfaithful, or disobedient believers from the earth through the work of the Tribulation. So only the faithful believers will be left, who won't take the mark, but rather will die the martyr's death.""
Lol
You just proved all believers die in the gt.
Nobody left to rapture posttrib.
Too funny
How is it that you guys say that the Lord's coming to gather His church prior to His wrath is proposterous and full of errors?
The underlying principle to this issue, is that Jesus took upon himself God's wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer. Since God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments must take place before the Lord can return to the earth, then how can the believers within the church who have been credited with the righteousness of Christ and who have been reconciled to God, be on the earth to experience God's wrath? If you say that the church is going to be protected, show me the scripture which states this. In fact, show me and everyone else where the church is even mentioned within the narrative of God's wrath. The fact that Jesus already experienced God's wrath on our behalf demonstrates that we are not appointed to suffer it.
Because of this, the mid and post trib belief is not tight as a drum, because it would put the church through the entire wrath of God and you guys never give an answer to this very important principle. It is a legal precedent. Once something has been fulfilled by the Lord on our behalf, it is no longer required of us.
People who believe in the mid and post trib, have no idea of the severity and magnitude of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. For if they did, they would not put the church on the earth during that time. Consider the following:
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.”
The verse above is also saying that those who believe, God's wrath does not rest upon them.
The above is taken out of context. Jesus said the above because Peter made the confessing statement saying "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
However, in regards to the timing of the gathering of the church, who do you think revealed this information to those of us who know? For as Jesus said regarding the Holy Spirit, "He will remind you of all that I have told you. And He will reveal the things yet to come.'
For those who believe that the Lord is going to first put His bride through His wrath and then gather her, you are greatly mistaken. And in case you attempt to bring up that argument that the apostles and the first century church didn't escape persecution, that was not God's wrath, but the common trials and tribulations that Jesus said believers would have because of our faith. The difference is that, those trials and tribulations come at the hands of men and the powers of darkness, where God's wrath will be unprecedented and will come directly from Him. The church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath. Any wrath!
I really wish that you guys would take the time to study this information and not just adopt a belief, protecting it tooth and nail.
During the time of God's wrath, the majority of the earths population will have been decimated and all human government dismantled.
When the Holy Spirit as the One who is restraining, is taken out of the way, then the believers within the church in whom He dwells will also be taken out of the way. The Lord's promise to come and take His church back to the Father's house will take place prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath. The Day of the Lord is not for the church, but for those who have continue to reject Christ and who willfully live according to the sinful nature, the proud, haughty, arrogant, sexually immoral, etc. Believers in the church however are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, because Jesus has already satisfied God's anger on those who believe.
The mid and post trib beliefs are anything but 'tight as a drum' for you have the righteous being punished right along with the wicked and God does not do that.
So you have 2 examples of gathering being From HEAVEN.
ONE " from earth"
No don't you can easily ignore the "from heaven" as if Jesus never said it.
But you still have a gathering by angels ...NOT JESUS.
You still have no case.
Again...look at the rapture verses.
Please do so.
I know it is next to impossible but ignoring them has you reframing to promote error.
That is what happens when you omit truth.
I've already looked at all of the rapture verses. You keep removing verses from all context and disregarding other key scriptures to form pre-trib doctrine that isn't actually stated in the Bible.
A single read of Matthew 24 is good enough for the honest Bible scholar.
....and yes rev 19 has a gathering IN HEAVEN to the horses prepared for the saints to follow Jesus to earth.
A gathering OF SAINTS ALREADY IN HEAVEN towards the end of the gt ....Or right at the end.
Angels gather as declared in Mat 24 and Luke 13.
BTW...the "ends of earth" is the heavens.
Nothing saying that Jesus gathers from earth anything postrib.....nothing at all there.
Nobody says the rapture pretrib is not a coming.
So yes every rapture verse is at his coming for his bride.
Rev 14 is not the main gathering.
It is in between. Or a little after mid trib.
But that gathering is not the second coming on billions of horses. Or the rapture of 1 thes 4,acts 1,mat 25,or mat 24 one taken/ left
See where omission takes you????
Error...that is where.
Well first of all, the gathering of the church does not take place at the Lord's second coming, i.e. when He returns to the earth to end the age. The gathering of the church is a separate event from that which will take place prior to the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and that because Jesus already satisfied God's wrath on behalf of every believer.
And second, our Lord is not what is going to be set up in the holy place, but it will be that abomination that the ruler, that antichrist will set up in the middle of the seven years. If you are suggesting that Jesus is that abomination that is set up, the prophecy states that the Messiah will be cut off at the end of the 69th seven. Therefore, He is not even present when the 70th seven begins, which is yet future. The word 'bdelugma' is defined as 'a reeking stench that goes up before God' and you're applying that to Jesus?
And the last part of your paragraph makes not logical sense at all. Why do you guys always tie the Lord's hands behind His back, restricting Him?
And therein lies you error! Right in the very first verse it states:
"The Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to Him to show His servants the things which take place in quickness."
'Those things' are the events of God's wrath. The book of Revelation is a detailed account of the long prophesied "Day of the Lord."
God did not write 12 chapters describing His wrath, only to make it symbolic. Furthermore, there is no reason to apply symbolism when it is not required. If the literal sense makes good sense, then don't seek any other sense. These will be literal events of wrath with their literal results taking place. This is why Jesus said that it would be the worst time in the history of the world from the beginning, till now and never to be equaled again. And if those days had been allowed to go on any longer, no one would be left alive. So, no, they are not symbolic.
It is not honest to think noah and lot were delivered post judgement.
That is bizarre.
Especially when Jesus told you "BEFORE THE FLOOD."
Then immediately say ”one taken/ left" then immediately say watch and be ready...then immediately say 5 wise virgins were taken by the groom in peacetime environment with no possibility of billions of horses.
MOST dishonest to omit truth.
Yes GOOD read would definitely help you.
I have read them repeatedly. And they speak to Israel. Precisely in the same way that Daniel chapter 9 speaks to Israel. The Church is not in Dan 9 neither is it in these chapters. Because they are parallel you see. Jesus is expanding on Daniels 70th week in these chapters. With the exception of Luke 21 where He ALSO prophesies IN DETAIL the 70 A.D. destruction as a warning to Israel. The 70AD destruction is mentioned but is very cursory in Matthew and Mark.
""I've already looked at all of the rapture verses""
I have never seen you discuss one.
Maybe post one and show us your correct context.
Pick one.
I would love to see how your context applies.
I have never seen you discuss one.
Maybe post one and show us your correct context.
Pick one.
I would love to see how your context applies.
The above makes no sense.
* You are here
* Church gathered and take back to the Father's house
* God wrath begins, antichrist establishes a seven year covenant with Israel
* The covenant is broken in the middle of the seven and the abomination set up in the temple
* At the end of that last 3 1/2 years, the Lord returns with the church following behind riding on white horses
* Beast and false prophet cast alive into the lake of fire
* Satan is seize and thrown into and locked up in the Abyss for during Christ's thousand year reign
* Great tribulation saints are resurrected and rule with Christ during the thousand years
* Millennial kingdom
* Satan released at the end of the millennial kingdom for one last rebelion
* Satan thrown into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet will be
* Great white throne judgment (judgment of the unrighteous dead throughout all of history)
* new heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem
That is the chronological order of events as listed in Revelation
Yes, I agree. Let's NOT confuse the issue. Jesus Christ comes back to earth ONCE more. It's called the SECOND Advent, or SECOND Coming. And that will happen at the end of the Tribulation. It will be the end of the Trib because Jesus ends it himself.
This is just an opinion. What verse or verses actually say any of this?
I never said the "church cannot be gathered". Of course it will. When He comes at the Second Advent, with all the dead saints from heaven. Matt 24 says exactly that.
But Acts 3:21 is clear in the Greek. In fact, a number of English translations have "remain in heaven" instead of "receive".
The Greek word is dechomai.
From https://www.wenstrom.org/downloads/written/word_studies/greek/dechomai.pdf
a. to receive
Analytical Greek Lexicon Revised (page 88):
- to receive into and retain, contain
- met. To receive by the hearing, learn, acquire a knowledge of
- to receive, admit, grant access to, receive kindly, welcome
- to receive in hospitality, entertain
- to bear with, bear patiently
- met. To receive, approve, assent to
- to admit and by implication to embrace, follow
I have this lexicon, but the original, not the "revised". And "dechomai" is found on page 88 in my book. What this website didn't include, but is in my lexicon, is that the meaning found in 2. is associated with Acts 3:21.
So I have it on scholarly authority what Acts 3:21 is saying. It is saying that Jesus STAYS/REMAINS in heaven until the time of restoration.
Then prove it with Scripture. You need evidence from the Bible, not just a bunch of opinons from a bunch of people. I was raised believing in a pre-trib rapture, but when I actually began to study like the Bereans in Acts 17:11, I found that there is NO evidence of any U-turn in the Bible.
Opinion. Give me Scripture please.[/QUOTE]
Exactly
And what are they going to do with examples where it is symbolic and literal.
The 3 crosses
The 3 lambs sacrificed on passover
The veil rent
....and a hundred more that are both literal and symbolic.
It is not one dimensional.
That is the dynamic of revelation. It is multifaceted truth....again not one dimensional.