Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

[Ahwatukee]

Can't God shield a church in the midst of tribulation as He shielded Israel when the 7 last plagues fell in Egypt or like He shielded the 3 Hebrews in the fiery furnace or Daniel in the lion's den or Israel in the Red Sea which swallowed up the Egyptian army?

Of course He can.

Sure He could, but it would be a full time job, because of the severity of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. However, the Lord is not going to put His church through the same wrath as the wicked, but will keep His promise in John 14:1-3 and I Thess.4:16-17 and will gather His church prior to those plagues of wrath.

In your example using God protecting Israel, they needed to remain on the earth to obtain the land and all the promises that God has made to them. The church on the other hand has no reason to remain on the earth and in fact is never mentioned during the narrative of God's wrath from chapters 6 thru 18. It is the great tribulation saints who are referred to throughout the narrative, which are those who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17. These are those who will become believers in Christ after the church has been removed and during the time of God's wrath.

The word 'ekklesia' translated 'church' is used 19 times throughout chapters 1 thru 3 and then it disappears. The next time that the church is referred to is as 'the bride' in Rev.19:6-8 at the wedding of the Lamb which takes place in heaven. The next time the actual word 'church' is used again, is in Rev.22:16.

According to scripture, the only people who are protected will be the woman/Israel of Rev.12:6, 14 who will be cared for out in the wilderness for that last 3 1/2 years of the seven year period. And it mentions that those 144,000 Israelites who will have been sealed back in chapter 7, will be excluded from the results of the 7th trumpet which will be the stings of those demonic beings which resemble locusts who are released from the Abyss. Other than that, there is no mention of the church and not mention of them being protected. Regarding this, the beast is given power to make war and conquer the great tribulation saints. Therefore, anyone who claims that they are the church, it would show that the beast would be conquering them.

The church is not going to be on the earth during the time of God's wrath, because we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, because Jesus already did. And because of this and the severity of said wrath, believers in the church must be removed.

 

[cv5]

John wasn't addressing believers at all in Rev 1-3. The 7 churches were believers. If he thought some of the churches had unbelievers in them, he would have given them the gospel, NOT admonitions to service.

"he thought"???? The apostle John is expressing his own opinions here?
The seven Churches (and churches today) did not have unbelievers in them?

Such assertions betray tremendous ignorance.

 

[cv5]

Every single pre-trib rapture Jesuit "Left Behind" Futurist has argued for decades that the "taken/left" verses refer to the "secret rapture" 7 years before the Second Coming, but you say they're all barking up the wrong tree? I've got some bad news for you - you need to find a new tree too

Because you claim the "knew not until" part of Jesus' Flood comparison applies to the Second Coming, but if there's a "secret rapture" accompanied by all that stuff about crashing planes and cars and empty clothes where the saints disappeared, how the flip can there be anyone at the Second Coming who "knew not" about what was coming? They've had 7 flippin years to hear about it!

Seriously, what will it take before you guys are honest enough to admit that Jesuit "Left Behind" Futurism has too many plot holes and warrants taking a good long hard look at Protestant Historicism?

The secret rapture won't be secret after it happens buddy believe it.

 

[cv5]

Your posts are sure lacking in evidence that supports your claims.


There's nothing here about being raptured.

Only by commiting eisegesis does one come up with that notion.

The gathering up (rapture) is for EVERY living believer. No believer will be "left out".

Thanks Ahwatukee.......missed it for some reason. Slowing down in my old age I guess.

Rev 3:10
Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you OUT OF the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth.

https://biblehub.com/greek/1537.htm

 

[cv5]

Can't God shield a church in the midst of tribulation as He shielded Israel when the 7 last plagues fell in Egypt or like He shielded the 3 Hebrews in the fiery furnace or Daniel in the lion's den or Israel in the Red Sea which swallowed up the Egyptian army?

Of course He can.

The theme of Israel passing THROUGH wrath divinely protected is clearly and undeniably represented in Scripture. But as is the case with so many PROFESSING Christ today (IMO doomed to go through the Tribulation) you have no idea of the difference between the Church and Israel.

Sorry about your luck fella I really am. And trust me when I tell you the time is near at the very doorstep.

 

[ewq1938]

Thanks Ahwatukee.......missed it for some reason. Slowing down in my old age I guess.

Rev 3:10
Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you OUT OF the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth.

https://biblehub.com/greek/1537.htm

That verse is not suggesting anyone is removed from the world. This is how it should be understood:

Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

People will be kept from the temptations and trials of the Great Tribulation while still being in this world.

 

[cv5]

You seem pretty impressed with your proclamations. Where do you get that? Haven't you ever read what Jesus said about the Tribulation?

Matt 24:22 - “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

iow, God limits the Trib to just 7 years, OR "no one would survive". So, yes, believers WILL survive the Tribulation.


God can protect believers through the Trib just as He kept ALL the Jews alive during the 10 plagues of Egypt.

Why do you limit God's power?


Irrelevant.


Thank you for your opinion.

btw, if no believers survive the Trib, who are those "who are alive and remain" (1 Thess 4:15- According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.)?

Why do you reject Paul's words?


If you have something other than opinion, please share.


Once again, who was Paul referring to in 1Thess 4:15?


Hardly. There is only ONE "first resurrection". Rev 20:5.

It is the post-trib position that is so thoroughly shot full of errors and incongruities so as to be preposterous.
The pre-trib position however is tight as a drum. It matches all of the relevant Scriptures perfectly. Indeed it matches the overall themes and patterns of the Scriptures perfectly as well. That is if in fact you understand the Scriptures to begin with. If you don't....well.....

Mat 16:17
Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

 

[ewq1938]

It is the pre-trib position that is so thoroughly shot full of errors and incongruities so as to be preposterous.
The Post-trib position however is tight as a drum. It matches all of the relevant Scriptures perfectly. Indeed it matches the overall themes and patterns of the Scriptures perfectly as well. That is if in fact you understand the Scriptures to begin with. If you don't....well.....

Mat 16:17
Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

That verse is not suggesting anyone is removed from the world. This is how it should be understood:

Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

People will be kept from the temptations and trials of the Great Tribulation while still being in this world.

"that thou shouldest keep them from [ek] the EVIL [/evil one]"

is distinct from saying,

"I will keep you out-from [ek] THE HOUR OF" (that is, out-from the TIME-PERIOD being referenced)





Rev3:10 -

"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to [mello, 'SURE' to / 'CERTAIN' to] come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth."



[grasp what is meant by "the word of My patient-endurance"]

"certain TO COME UPON" parallels the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" equivalent the FIRST SEAL... (i.e. the ARRIVAL of the DOTL TIME-PERIOD with its JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth over the course of some TIME...)

 

[cv5]

^ Found it

[quoting old post]

[quoting Gaebelein on 1 Peter 3 - re: "preached to the spirits in prison"]

"What, then, does the passage mean? It is very simple after all. He preached by the Spirit, or in the Spirit, that is, the same Spirit who raised Him from among the dead, the Holy Spirit of life and power, to the spirits who are now in prison. But when the preaching occurred they were not in prison. And who were they? All the wicked dead for 4,000 years? The text makes it clear that they are a special class of people. They were living in the days of Noah. It is incomprehensible how some of these teachers, misinterpreting this passage, can teach that it includes all the lost, or angels which fell, or the righteous dead. The Spirit of God preached to them, that is, the Spirit who quickened the body of Christ, the same Spirit preached to the generation of unbelievers in the days of Noah. The time of the preaching, then, did not occur between the death and resurrection of Christ, but it took place in Noah’s day. Christ was not personally, or corporeally present, just as He is not present in person in this age when the gospel is preached; His Spirit is here.

"So was He present by His Spirit in the days of Noah. It is written: “My Spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years” (Genesis 6:3). His Spirit was then on the earth. In long-suffering God was waiting for one hundred and twenty years while the ark was preparing. His Spirit preached then. But He needed an instrument. The instrument was Noah; in him was the Spirit of Christ and as the preacher of righteousness (2Peter 2:5) he delivered the warning message of an impending judgment to those about him, who did not heed the message, passed on in disobedience, were swept away by the deluge and are now the spirits in prison. As the Spirit of Christ was in the prophets (1Peter 1:11) testifying beforehand of the suffering of Christ and the glory that should follow, so the Spirit of Christ preached through Noah. This is the meaning of this passage, and any other is faulty and unscriptural."

-- https://biblehub.com/commentaries/gaebelein/1_peter/3.htm

[end quoting; bold and underline mine]

An interesting interpretation. I still believe the stronger case is to be made of fallen angels in prison. At least it removes one degree of speculation. And overall, it's a perfect fit contextually.

2 Pet 2:4
For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

Jude 1:6
And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

How can you compare a people who had no evidence for Noah's claims (they never even saw it rain) and thus chose to remain ignorant of the coming destruction until it was too late -- with a people who you claim will not only know for certain what's about to hit the planet, but will know the exact timing of when it happens?

To be clear, I am not suggesting that everyone on the earth (following "our Rapture") WILL know the exact timing of His return to the earth [<--Lk17:27,29 "destroyed them ALL"], BECAUSE many will disregard His Word (the point being made); Only "the WISE *will understand*"... but "NONE of the wicked shall understand" (recall, it will be during a time of GREAT DECEPTION!; and 2Th2:10-12 will also then be in play "HE SHALL SEND TO THEM GREAT DELUSION, so that...")

I'm saying it is POSSIBLE for ppl to then "know" [for the info is now available IN HIS WRITTEN WORD] when He's expected to return to the earth [then/during that time-period], but NOT EVERYONE will HEED HIS WORD [and/or those bringing it in/during/within those trib yrs (FOLLOWING "our Rapture")--ex. Matt24:14 / 26:13, and other passages I've listed re: the trib yrs with the particular "msg" / "INVITATION" going forth during that future time period] ...(just as in Noah's day).

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Every single pre-trib rapture Jesuit "Left Behind" Futurist has argued for decades that the "taken/left" verses refer to the "secret rapture" 7 years before the Second Coming, but you say they're all barking up the wrong tree? I've got some bad news for you - you need to find a new tree too

I wouldn't say "every single pre-trib rapture futurist: has argued that particular point... though I readily admit it was a predominant viewpoint on that passage during the 70s (I know, I was there and was listening, lol). But not so much *before* and *after* the 70s, except amongst those clinging to that 70s-era interp. But... plz recognize the wider spans... not all "pre-tribbers" believed / believe that particular interpretation, amongst "pre-tribbers". Take a glance at the broader scope of those teaching/speaking on the topic, and you'll see that's not the exclusive viewpoint (but was popular in the 70s, as I said).

I used to have a list of scholars who are pre-trib, but present it the way I have... (if it wasn't stored in my old computer [now crashed], I can try to find that list and post it)



[sometimes those of other viewpoints make denigrating comments about our "pre-trib" beliefs (which are mostly just not accurate to our viewpoint), but then turn around and use those same "faulty ideas" to try and disprove our view--but that ain't the actual viewpoint, see! lol]

Because you claim the "knew not until" part of Jesus' Flood comparison applies to the Second Coming, but if there's a "secret rapture" accompanied by all that stuff about crashing planes and cars and empty clothes where the saints disappeared, how the flip can there be anyone at the Second Coming who "knew not" about what was coming? They've had 7 flippin years to hear about it!

I've said for YEARS that I do not believe that at the time of our Rapture ['pre-trib'] that planes will fall out of the sky and cars will be crashing all over the place. No. (Of course, many looked at me as though I had two heads... thinking that this, if pre-trib is to be true, is the only REASONABLE assumption to be making. I think NOT.)

I've made a post not too long ago (which goes along with what I just said in a previous post here), explaining how I see the bold part of your thought, above ^ , ... sure they'll recognize that ppl are gone / missing / absent / no longer present... but bear in mind this is when 2Th2:10-12 comes into play ("God SHALL SEND TO THEM [to certain ones being spoken of, here] GREAT DELUSION, so that they should BELIEVE THE LIE / THE FALSE / THE PSEUDEI..."--I've posted before about what I believe factors into that "belief" they [those certain ones] will come to embrace in/within/during those trib yrs [FOLLOWING "our Rapture"], I won't go into all that here...

...but it will be a time of GREAT DECEPTION; however, "the WISE will understand" and they will set about to "turn many to righteousness" in/during/within that future time-period; IOW, not all will believe the lie... many will be coming to faith in/with/during the trib yrs [following "our Rapture"] and the very event of "our Rapture," as I've said, will be a PRIMARY IMPETUS which helps many turn to Christ and faith in Him, during that future time period--These will be the two contrasting "beliefs" ppl will come to in/during/within those trib yrs [following "our Rapture"] which Paul is contrasting in his two chpts of 2Th1&2, where he uses the same two [related] phrases together in the same context [that the OT also referred to when used together in close proximity], to refer to the SAME [future] TIME-PERIOD)

 

[Phoneman-777]

In Noah's day, it wasn't that they'd never HEARD the warning... never SAW the preparations... never WITNESSED the parade of animals going to Noah and boarding the ark (this is not the meaning of "they knew not until").

It's that they DISREGARDED the word of God via Noah, and went about their "every-day business" as though "judgment" was in fact not coming, contrary to what the Word of God via Noah had said.

This is the same as what will be true of that future judgment. (Not that nothing is/has been/will be going on, then,... but they they will disregard the Word of God regarding said judgment--even in the 6th Trumpet/2nd Woe point in the trib [which I believe is past the mid-point, 5th Trumpet/1st Woe], we see them "sending gifts to one another, because" per Rev11:10... continuing on in their disregarding God's word via His particular messengers of that future time-period [leading up to... , etc])

This is what we know: The faithless Antediluvians who had zero evidence to believe Noah "knew not until" they were taken away, which means they were totally taken by surprise.

Now, which of the "left behind" folks are goingto be taken by surprise by the Second Coming when they'll be surrounded by

Sure He could, but it would be a full time job, because of the severity of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. However, the Lord is not going to put His church through the same wrath as the wicked, but will keep His promise in John 14:1-3 and I Thess.4:16-17 and will gather His church prior to those plagues of wrath.

In your example using God protecting Israel, they needed to remain on the earth to obtain the land and all the promises that God has made to them. The church on the other hand has no reason to remain on the earth and in fact is never mentioned during the narrative of God's wrath from chapters 6 thru 18. It is the great tribulation saints who are referred to throughout the narrative, which are those who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17. These are those who will become believers in Christ after the church has been removed and during the time of God's wrath.

The word 'ekklesia' translated 'church' is used 19 times throughout chapters 1 thru 3 and then it disappears. The next time that the church is referred to is as 'the bride' in Rev.19:6-8 at the wedding of the Lamb which takes place in heaven. The next time the actual word 'church' is used again, is in Rev.22:16.

According to scripture, the only people who are protected will be the woman/Israel of Rev.12:6, 14 who will be cared for out in the wilderness for that last 3 1/2 years of the seven year period. And it mentions that those 144,000 Israelites who will have been sealed back in chapter 7, will be excluded from the results of the 7th trumpet which will be the stings of those demonic beings which resemble locusts who are released from the Abyss. Other than that, there is no mention of the church and not mention of them being protected. Regarding this, the beast is given power to make war and conquer the great tribulation saints. Therefore, anyone who claims that they are the church, it would show that the beast would be conquering them.

The church is not going to be on the earth during the time of God's wrath, because we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, because Jesus already did. And because of this and the severity of said wrath, believers in the church must be removed.

The churches, seals, and trumpets are parallel prophecies which are given while our High Priest is yet in the Holy Place...which is BEFORE He enters the Most Holy Place to cleanse the Sanctuary...which both the symbolic prophecies of the 70 Weeks and the 2300 Days prove that Jesus will cleanse the Sanctuary 2300 years after “the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem which Artaxerxes decreed in 457 B.C.

So, prophecies which are given while Jesus is in the Holy Place CANNOT be future - however, the prophecy of the 7 Last Plagues is given while Jesus IS in the Most Holy Place, so why are you lumping them together when Scripture clearly says they are separate.

Please don’t get hung up in the whole “nuclear war that kills 1/3 of mankind” silliness. Revelation is SYMBOLIC. If people want to know what trees and grass and the other symbols represent, go back to the OT and let the Bible interpret itself.

 

[Absolutely]

^ [to "overcome" means you are a "believer"... you have trusted Christ... you've come to faith... It does not mean you're a "super-Christian"]


--"churchES" are made up of both "believers" AND "those who come in His name, but who are not actually SAVED PERSONS [/believers/saints/trusting in Christ for salvation]"... aka what we commonly call "Christendom"


--[not the same thing as saying] "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (which is ONLY believers--ALL those saved in this present age)

No
Paul clearly lays out the dynamic of the carnal believer.

They are NOT OVERCOMERS.

An OVERCOMER Is one who has overcome the world,sin, and the devil.

The believer in addiction or love of this world or a glutton or idolitry etc is saved but no crowns....and not an OVERCOMER.

Paul says they are saved but their works are burnt up.

 

[Absolutely]

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Co_15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Ok thanks for the pretrib rapture verse.

I asked for proof that "all" receive the mark ,is a mistake by the Holy Spirit, as you claim.

 

[Absolutely]

Can't God shield a church in the midst of tribulation as He shielded Israel when the 7 last plagues fell in Egypt or like He shielded the 3 Hebrews in the fiery furnace or Daniel in the lion's den or Israel in the Red Sea which swallowed up the Egyptian army?

Of course He can.

Take the 144k messianic Jews for example.

They are given a seal in their forehead to receive protection from the flying scorpions.

That alone tells you there are no believers on the planet near the first half of the gt. They are in heaven as rev 19 tells us.

Think about it. A classic talking point of postribs is that all believers are sealed.

That error is easily seen.
If that were true The 144k would not need a second seal.

So many impossibilities of the postrib rapture

 

[Absolutely]

""Please don’t get hung up in the whole “nuclear war that kills 1/3 of mankind” silliness. Revelation is SYMBOLIC. If people want to know what trees and grass and the other symbols represent, go back to the OT and let the Bible interpret itself.""

Nope
What is symbolic is symbolic.
What is literal is literal

 

[FreeGrace2]

Believing in the pre-trib rapture is not salvific.

There's a whole lot more in the Bible than just the truth about Jesus' Second Advent.

If you are correct, and that all of us go thru the Tribulation, we just need to follow the doctrine found in Hebrews to Revelations to ensure our salvation in the end.

Uh, no. No one "ensures their own salvation". That was taken care of completely by Jesus alone. Salvation is a free gift. All you can do is receive it on the basis of trust alone in Christ alone.

It will be much tougher to be saved then, though. Among other things, we would need to do some of the following works

1. Rejecting the mark of beast, meaning you are out of the economic system, you cannot buy and sell and must trust God to supernaturally feed you. (James 5)
2. Feeding and giving shelter to the persecuted Jews, who are the brethren of Jesus (Matthew 25:31-46)
3. Enduring to the end (Matthew 24:13)

Nope. Salvation is guaranteed by Jesus Christ. There is no work involved on our part. He did all the work. Amen

 

[Absolutely]

Every single pre-trib rapture Jesuit "Left Behind" Futurist has argued for decades that the "taken/left" verses refer to the "secret rapture" 7 years before the Second Coming, but you say they're all barking up the wrong tree? I've got some bad news for you - you need to find a new tree too

Because you claim the "knew not until" part of Jesus' Flood comparison applies to the Second Coming, but if there's a "secret rapture" accompanied by all that stuff about crashing planes and cars and empty clothes where the saints disappeared, how the flip can there be anyone at the Second Coming who "knew not" about what was coming? They've had 7 flippin years to hear about it!

Seriously, what will it take before you guys are honest enough to admit that Jesuit "Left Behind" Futurism has too many plot holes and warrants taking a good long hard look at Protestant Historicism?

I guess you need to go back to mat 24.

It says BEFORE THE FLOOD.

BEFORE THE FLOOD THEY were eating and drinking ( normal everyday life)

Noah...BEFORE THE FLOOD.

That would be PREFLOOD.

THEN IT SAYS "one taken/ left behind."

THEN IT SAYS watch and expect Jesus coming PREFLOOD/PRETRIB

Re read it.
Definitely a pretrib rapture.

 

[Absolutely]

How can you compare a people who had no evidence for Noah's claims (they never even saw it rain) and thus chose to remain ignorant of the coming destruction until it was too late -- with a people who you claim will not only know for certain what's about to hit the planet, but will know the exact timing of when it happens?

The end times have to reflect what happened in Noah's day, and the only interpretation that makes sense is that the gathering together of the saints and the Second Coming happen simultaneously on the same day with the righteous left alive in Jesus our Ark of Safety, like Noah and family, and the wicked being "taken away" in death like the faithless Antediluvians.

Your interpretation leaves out a crucial detail Jesus intentionally wanted us to understand: that the wicked will "know not until" destruction comes to take them away in death.

Postribs need noah rescued POST FLOOD.

TAKEN A MILE INTO THE SKY AFTER THE FLOOD.

LETS SEE...Noah was taken into the sky.
When?

A week into the rain?

More postrib rapture impossibilities.

BTW postribs also need lot protected in sodom and delivered "post firey destruction".