A complex question about free will and Calvinism

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Oct 19, 2020
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#61
I'm simply asking that if we could know the precise position and momentum of a particle at the time of the big bang (or shortly after), any future event could be calculated, does this undermine free will and support Calvinism?

A particle the size of the Bang would leave record somewhere. Do you believe when the nucleus froze, heat, shrank, annihilated the particles were one and the destruction of the Bang created altered particles? It's all energy. Energy can be detected when its been interrupted. Do we have the correct formula to calculate that?
 
Aug 3, 2019
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#62
Which kjv verse says ' being saved ' ?
None. The principle is there. Since the thing from which we are promised salvation — the Lake of Fire — hasn’t even begun to burn yet, we technically haven’t been saved from it...yet.

So, when the Bible says we “are saved” in the present tense, it’s a commentary on the bold assurance we are to have in God’s promise to save us from the coming judgment (because God’s omniscience allows Him to speak of things that shall be as though they presently are), not a present condition where the Lake of Fire has burned out and we are able to tread down the ashes of the wicked under a newly created heaven and earth.
 
Aug 3, 2019
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#63
This has nothing to do with my question, so I'm respectfully not going to address it.
Nothin personal, just that I'm trying to keep the thread relevant rather than allow it to go off on several unrelated tangents
OK, but I’ll just say that the our inability to operate outside the Laws of Nature in no way prevents us from choosing to operate outside the Law of God.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#64
None. The principle is there. Since the thing from which we are promised salvation — the Lake of Fire — hasn’t even begun to burn yet, we technically haven’t been saved from it...yet.

So, when the Bible says we “are saved” in the present tense, it’s a commentary on the bold assurance we are to have in God’s promise to save us from the coming judgment (because God’s omniscience allows Him to speak of things that shall be as though they presently are), not a present condition where the Lake of Fire has burned out and we are able to tread down the ashes of the wicked under a newly created heaven and earth.
No we ARE saved from that possibility NOW. It cannot happen to a Christian. Thats what ' saved ' means. The only thing remains is the redemption of the BODY . A person in Christ is saved from the judgment to come. Its not ' cease fire ' .
 
Aug 3, 2019
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#65
We do not have the adoption yet . The redemption of the body. Its our bodies which are not redeemed yet . Spiritually we are already resurrected which for those that think this is reversible by our doing is laughable really .
Not a single person has been saved from the Lake of Fire yet - we have only the promise of salvation if we continue to abide in the Vine.
 
Aug 3, 2019
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#66
No we ARE saved from that possibility NOW. It cannot happen to a Christian. Thats what ' saved ' means. The only thing remains is the redemption of the BODY . A person in Christ is saved from the judgment to come. Its not ' cease fire ' .
Body? What about the Soul?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#67
None. The principle is there. Since the thing from which we are promised salvation — the Lake of Fire — hasn’t even begun to burn yet, we technically haven’t been saved from it...yet.

So, when the Bible says we “are saved” in the present tense, it’s a commentary on the bold assurance we are to have in God’s promise to save us from the coming judgment (because God’s omniscience allows Him to speak of things that shall be as though they presently are), not a present condition where the Lake of Fire has burned out and we are able to tread down the ashes of the wicked under a newly created heaven and earth.
A person in christ
Not a single person has been saved from the Lake of Fire yet - we have only the promise of salvation if we continue to abide in the Vine.
Everyone who is ' in christ ' WILL not go into the lake of fire . I don't know how much more saved a person could be ? This is on the promise of God . There is nothing more certain than this . Being predestined to glorification, sealed by the Holy Spirit AS the guarantee. At best you could say it hasn't happened yet ( the redemption of the body ) . But everyone who is in Christ CANNOT go into the lake of fire . Its literally impossible. Unless God is lying .And we can be certain God CANNOT lie .
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#68
Not a single person has been saved from the Lake of Fire yet - we have only the promise of salvation if we continue to abide in the Vine.
Every single person who is redeemed by Christ is already unable to go into the lake of fire . That judgement can never fall upon them .
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#69
Body? What about the Soul?
If a person in Christ ends up in the lake of fire then it would mean Jesus goes to ..
Ephesians 5:30

“For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.”

Eph 2
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Col 1
26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
 
Mar 23, 2016
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#70
What this means is that all of creation -- the natural world -- reveals the power and glory of God. One does not need any scientific knowledge for this. When human beings behold the marvels of nature, they are led to conclude there there is a glorious Creator who made all things.
Yes ... and I believe the point of Romans 1:18-20 is that there is no excuse for those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness in refusing to acknowledge the eternal power of God as exhibited in creation.

Romans 1:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


God's wrath falls upon those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness (vs 18) because God reveals Himself (vs 19) even His eternal power and Godhead (vs 20) to mankind through creation.

However, some reject any mention of God having created the universe and all that is therein. Those who refuse to acknowledge God have no excuse because God has revealed a glimpse of Himself and He is rejected.




but isn't the implication that, if the things that are made ((creation)) clearly show the invisible things of Him, that knowledge of those things can teach us knowledge about His eternal power & godhead?
such that there are links between physics - when physics is rightly known - and theology?
I believe that as we observe the eternal power and Godhead exhibited in creation, we then examine those things and that is what brings us to study creation ... some examine more closely than others and become aware of the intricate details of creation ... hopefully within the framework of Scripture.

Another verse I like is Hebrews 11:3 ... through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.


 
Aug 3, 2019
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#71
A person in christ
Everyone who is ' in christ ' WILL not go into the lake of fire . I don't know how much more saved a person could be ? This is on the promise of God . There is nothing more certain than this . Being predestined to glorification, sealed by the Holy Spirit AS the guarantee. At best you could say it hasn't happened yet ( the redemption of the body ) . But everyone who is in Christ CANNOT go into the lake of fire . Its literally impossible. Unless God is lying .And we can be certain God CANNOT lie .
I agree - we have the assurance we will not go to the Lake of Fire but that’s yet future.
 
Aug 3, 2019
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#72
Every single person who is redeemed by Christ is already unable to go into the lake of fire . That judgement can never fall upon them .
A saved person can’t choose to be lost? Sounds like Calvinism. Jesus said we gotta abide in the Vine or be cast into the Fire.
 
Aug 3, 2019
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#73
If a person in Christ ends up in the lake of fire then it would mean Jesus goes to ..
Ephesians 5:30

“For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.”

Eph 2
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Col 1
26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
A saint who casts off his allegiance to Christ is no longer “in Christ”. Christ Himself said we must not allow iniquity to turn our agape cold and dead but we are to endure to the end if we are to be saved, right?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#74
A saint who casts off his allegiance to Christ is no longer “in Christ”. Christ Himself said we must not allow iniquity to turn our agape cold and dead but we are to endure to the end if we are to be saved, right?
That looks like you have amalgamated several scriptures there . Being ' in christ ' is not a pledge of allegiance. Its a locality . Notice in Eph 2.6 where a believer spiritually is located . Religion / cults teach that Following Jesus is an ' example' or that he came to offer us a ' start ' and we need to do the rest . Salvation is not Joining a membership. Its not a commitment like Joining the Navy . We are irreversibly changed spiritually in Christ . Eph 1.3 ,2 cor 5.17
 
Aug 3, 2019
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#75
That looks like you have amalgamated several scriptures there . Being ' in christ ' is not a pledge of allegiance. Its a locality . Notice in Eph 2.6 where a believer spiritually is located . Religion / cults teach that Following Jesus is an ' example' or that he came to offer us a ' start ' and we need to do the rest . Salvation is not Joining a membership. Its not a commitment like Joining the Navy . We are irreversibly changed spiritually in Christ . Eph 1.3 ,2 cor 5.17
I don’t think so...that Unmerciful Servant was saved and his debt wiped clean but refused to repent from his greed, and wound up back in prison with the debt reinstated.

The same fate awaits any saint who tells the Holy Spirit “this far and no further, Lord”.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#76
I don’t think so...that Unmerciful Servant was saved and his debt wiped clean but refused to repent from his greed, and wound up back in prison with the debt reinstated.

The same fate awaits any saint who tells the Holy Spirit “this far and no further, Lord”.
¶If ye then be RISEN with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

2Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

3For ye ARE DEAD , and your life is HID with Christ in God.

4When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then SHALL ye also appear with him in glory.
Col 3

I never can understand how some must gloss over these clear verses , in favour of parables, the old testament and verses aimed at Israel , the tribulation and before the cross ? Do you start in revelation and work backwards to Genesis ,when studying the bible?
 
Jan 31, 2021
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#77
I have a complex question about free will and Calvinism, as the title of the thread suggests.
Here it is:

If one could know the position and momentum of every particle at the time of the big bang, any future event could be calculated.
These future events would include the motion of neurotransmitters and electrical activity in the brain, both of which contribute to decision making.
Therefore, do we really have free will?
If we don't have true free will, which my thought experiment would seem to suggest, then is Calvinism true?

Before anybody throws Heisenberg at me, Heisenberg simply suggests that the more accurately you measure one variable, the less well you can know the other. Regardless, every particle does have a definite mass and velocity.
Not really so complex.

Free will is nothing more than "opportunity". Of which one chooses to do or ignore that opportunity. Like sin. The believer can choose to sin, or choose to not sin.

There is no "power" in free will, as so many seem to think by the way they describe and treat it.

Free will simply means the freedom to choose from among options.

Do any of us have the option to change the weather? No, of course not.
 
Jan 28, 2021
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#78
Not really so complex.

Free will is nothing more than "opportunity". Of which one chooses to do or ignore that opportunity. Like sin. The believer can choose to sin, or choose to not sin.

There is no "power" in free will, as so many seem to think by the way they describe and treat it.

Free will simply means the freedom to choose from among options.

Do any of us have the option to change the weather? No, of course not.
I don't think you've appreciated the depth of my question.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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#79
I don't think you've appreciated the depth of my question.
I know that I did. It is common to overcomplicate the issue and meaning of free will. It is not complex. As I noted.

If you disagree, please address exactly what part of my explanation that you disagree with. Thanks.
 
Jan 28, 2021
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#80
I know that I did. It is common to overcomplicate the issue and meaning of free will. It is not complex. As I noted.

If you disagree, please address exactly what part of my explanation that you disagree with. Thanks.
The part I disagree with, if you will, is that I have not asked for anybody to define free will for me.