Did mind–body dualism exist before original sin?

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Benadam said:
Since you mentioned confusion, salvation wasn't being discussed. You didn't address the substance of my refutation of your interpretation.
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Salvation is what? Huh? Huh? Being saved from the second death. And who experiences the second death? Those not saved by grace through faith in the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ. They remain a natural man, and die both the first and second death. Adam and Eve were of the natural world. You denying it is germane to the discussion does not nullify it's significance. They were mortal. God alone is immortal.

God alone is immortal. Have you got that, yet? Gosh, it seems not.

You have been deceived.
 
Magenta said:
Salvation is what? Huh? Huh? Being saved from the second death. And who experiences the second death? Those not saved by grace through faith in the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ. They remain a natural man, and die both the first and second death. Adam and Eve were of the natural world. You denying it is germane to the discussion does not nullify it's significance. They were mortal. God alone is immortal.

God alone is immortal. Have you got that, yet? Gosh, it seems not.

You have been deceived.
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You are claiming God didn't create immortal beings. The Holy angels were created in heaven and never rebelled. They drove Satan and his angels out of heaven. When did the Holy angels die?God doesn't create rational beings with the potential for immortality or the choice to reject God wouldn't cause death. If what you claim were true Death would be natural and salvation would be earned. Death isn't natural to rational beings or death would have no power to sting. That would be a cruel God indeed to create beings to spend eternity with Him but make death natural. To make them choose Him for them to have what He created them for. To make them choose what they never knew yet is what He created them for.

God doesn't make us earn the Gift of Himself. We don't earn Grace.
 
Benadam said:
You are claiming God didn't create immortal beings. The Holy angels were created in heaven and never rebelled. They drove Satan and his angels out of heaven. When did the Holy angels die?God doesn't create rational beings with the potential for immortality or the choice to reject God wouldn't cause death. If what you claim were true Death would be natural and salvation would be earned. Death isn't natural to rational beings or death would have no power to sting. That would be a cruel God indeed to create beings to spend eternity with Him but make death natural. To make them choose Him for them to have what He created them for. To make them choose what they never knew yet is what He created them for.

God doesn't make us earn the Gift of Himself. We don't earn Grace.
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Now whose changing the subject? Salvation is by grace through faith, which is a gift from God, NOT earned. Where ever did you get that idea??? You are making claims that have no Biblical basis whatsoever... again and again. Are you also claiming man has no choice and is not morally responsible for the choices he makes? Are people merely puppets in your view then? The potential for life ever after... Yes, you are on to something there; follow that thought. It has truth. Much of the rest of what you say does not.
 
Check out also the fact that the immortal is put on with incorruptibility, which is through Christ alone.

For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

Yeah, you keep completely missing that, too :oops::rolleyes::oops: @Benadam

The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.

For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Adam and Eve never ate from the Tree of Life.
 
Magenta said:
Now whose changing the subject? Salvation is by grace through faith, which is a gift from God, NOT earned. Where ever did you get that idea??? You are making claims that have no Biblical basis whatsoever... again and again. Are you also claiming man has no choice and is not morally responsible for the choices he makes? Are people merely puppets in your view then? The potential for life ever after... Yes, you are on to something there; follow that thought. It has truth. Much of the rest of what you say does not.
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Magenta said:
Now whose changing the subject? Salvation is by grace through faith, which is a gift from God, NOT earned. Where ever did you get that idea??? You are making claims that have no Biblical basis whatsoever... again and again. Are you also claiming man has no choice and is not morally responsible for the choices he makes? Are people merely puppets in your view then? The potential for life ever after... Yes, you are on to something there; follow that thought. It has truth. Much of the rest of what you say does not.
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If immortal life is human potential it is earned by works. It isn't a gift.
 
Benadam said:
Unless your wisdom encompasses the wisdom of the Word that is a statement of pride
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Nope, it is a statement of fact, but you are too dern stubborn to admit there is zero Biblical basis for you saying things like all movements were involuntary before the fall or whatever nonsense it is you spout. Just like you are too stubborn to admit to the truth of the verses I have provided. You have a pride issue.
 
Benadam said:
You don't understand the term. We could save ourselves if we possessed salvation potentially.
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You misunderstand the application. Salvation is a potential for every human being.

Will they accept the free gift of grace God offers? Yer acting daft.

John12-31-32s.png


John 12:31-32:)
 
Benadam said:
This isn't true. Death had no hold on Jesus' body. If He was going to die He couldn't choose to die and Hid death would not be a sacrifice.
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I said unless He prevented it from happening. It was a scenario, I know He has the power to lay down His life and pick it back up again, or to not die at all.
 
Magenta said:
Nope, it is a statement of fact, but you are too dern stubborn to admit there is zero Biblical basis for you saying things like all movements were involuntary before the fall or whatever nonsense it is you spout. Just like you are too stubborn to admit to the truth of the verses I have provided. You have a pride issue.
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Atheist's claim there is no God because they can't see Him.
You support your claim the same way.🙂
Paul writes that his body moves involuntarily and describes it as a body of death. Which means Adam and Eve's bodies were not captive like Paul's before they sinned.
Romans 7
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
 
OneFaith said:
I said unless He prevented it from happening. It was a scenario, I know He has the power to lay down His life and pick it back up again, or to not die at all.
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Why would His body be a body of death as Paul describes in Romans ? Jesus' members were not obedient to sin.
 
posthuman said:
it also says, He did not see corruption. Christ's body isn't 'perishable' because in Him there is no sin.

connected to this is the body of Moses, who stood in the presence of God - which God hid, and Satan sought, contending over it with Michael. Moses' eyes did not grow dim, and his strength wasn't diminished ((Deut. 34:7)) -- this is unique, why are we told this? why does Satan desire his body, and not someone else's? why did God hide it? but this is 500 pages of discussion to search out.

do you think Christ ascended into the clouds, and then once the clouds obscured the apostle's sight, His body was discarded and fell to the sea? left floating around in orbit, becoming space junk? ooh maybe you can spot it with a telescope, the corpse of Jesus! ha!
you think He ascended bodily & rose bodily in order to deceive the apostles? then when no one was looking, threw away the ruse? ya think that's sound doctrine? really?

compare Elijah's body, which was also taken up in the whirlwind. 50 men searched for it for 3 days ((probably just a coincidence huh)) and it was not found. Elisha, one of the strongest types of Christ in the OT, told them not to look. they badgered him. he acquiesced. they did not find it. he said, i told you so.
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He had the power to do anything- including prevent His body from growing old and decaying. But He did grow like we did, He did get hurt like we do. He chose to experience what we experience so that we are without excuse, yet have His sympathy. (Wonderful Counselor, Almighty God is He).

I agree that His body was different from ours. When they speared His side, blood AND water flowed. But He existed without a physical body long before He used one to walk the earth, and He will exist in the spiritual realm (heaven) long after all physicality is destroyed forevermore. So why do we concern ourselves with His physical body? It was only a temporary vehicle. He came in many forms- a burning bush, a cloud, a wind, a pillar of fire, etc. I don’t hear anyone ask about those forms.

The apostles saw Christ on the mount of transfiguration, but He transformed before them- from a human type to a ghost type, and Elijah and Moses, who were with Him, also appeared in ghost form.

And again, yes, humans have gone into outer space- Elijah like you said, and astronauts. I don’t know exactly what happened to Jesus body after ascension. Maybe it disintegrated. Jesus suddenly appeared to the disciples in a locked room, so somehow His body went through the wall. We agree He is capable of anything. But why are you so concerned with His body? His blood that saves us is spiritual, not physical.
 
Benadam said:
Why would His body be a body of death as Paul describes in Romans ? Jesus' members were not obedient to sin.
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I agree that His body was without sin. I just don’t get why you guys are so hung up on a temporary thing.
 
OneFaith said:
So why do we concern ourselves with His physical body? It was only a temporary vehicle. He came in many forms- a burning bush, a cloud, a wind, a pillar of fire, etc. I don’t hear anyone ask about those forms.
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He didn't resurrect as a cloud or burning bush. To claim His body was a temporary vehicle is a denial of the resurrection.
 
OneFaith said:
apostles saw Christ on the mount of transfiguration, but He transformed before them- from a human type to a ghost type, and Elijah and Moses, who were with Him, also appeared in ghost form.
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Even after He died He taught He was no Ghost. Thomas put His fingers in Jesus' wounds. Jesus made sure the Apostles knew He is a physical reality but not bound by the laws of physics. Human life is incomplete without a physical body.

I would suggest you distinguish the term physical from material. As theological term's they don't always mean the same thing.
 
Benadam said:
This isn't true. Death had no hold on Jesus' body. If He was going to die He couldn't choose to die and Hid death would not be a sacrifice.
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“The reason My Father loves Me is that I lay down My life--only to take it up again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from My Father." John 10:17,18
 
Benadam said:
Even after He died He taught He was no Ghost. Thomas put His fingers in Jesus' wounds. Jesus made sure the Apostles knew He is a physical reality but not bound by the laws of physics. Human life is incomplete without a physical body.

I would suggest you distinguish the term physical from material. As theological term's they don't always mean the same thing.
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Yes, however, He transformed on the mount of transform-ation. He changed before them to become light. Yes, He would have to have a physical body first in order to transform into another body. And He did transform into ghost-like form.
 
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