Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.
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I have not taken a stand on the harvest here in Rev.14, because there is just not enough information to make a conclusion.
"Then another angel came out of the temple, crying out in a loud voice to the One seated on the cloud, “Swing Your sickle and reap, because the time has come to harvest; for the crop of the earth is ripe.” So the One seated on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested."
In comparison to the harvest that follows, this harvest appears to be a good harvest, but who is being harvested? Is it a resurrection or are living people being harvested? We don't have that information. It is possible that it could be the resurrection of the OT saints, but it is just a guess. In addition, Rev.12:6, 14 says that the woman who is figuratively representing Israel, flees out into the wilderness where she will be cared for during that 1260 days i.e. the last 3 1/2 years. So the remnant of Israel will be cared for by God out in the wilderness until the Lord returns to the earth.
"Still another angel, with authority over the fire, came from the altar and called out in a loud voice to the angel with the sharp sickle, “Swing your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the vine of the earth, because its grapes are ripe.”
So the angel swung his sickle over the earth and gathered the grapes of the earth, and he threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and the blood that flowed from it rose as high as the bridles of the horses for a distance of 1,600 stadia."
This second harvest appears to be one of living people and is reminiscent of Armageddon, the harvest being the destruction of the wicked on the earth, as demonstrated by the Lord trampling the winepress and the blood flowing as high as the horses bridle. However, that doesn't happen until the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, where all of the nations are gathered and the Euphrates is dried up to make way for the kings of the east. The bowl judgments don't begin until chapter 16 and Armageddon would follow them.
These two harvests are still in my spiritual cupboard, as the Spirit has not yet revealed the meaning of these to me personally.
What information do you have to make you believe that the first harvest is the gathering of the Jews?
"Then another angel came out of the temple, crying out in a loud voice to the One seated on the cloud, “Swing Your sickle and reap, because the time has come to harvest; for the crop of the earth is ripe.” So the One seated on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested."
In comparison to the harvest that follows, this harvest appears to be a good harvest, but who is being harvested? Is it a resurrection or are living people being harvested? We don't have that information. It is possible that it could be the resurrection of the OT saints, but it is just a guess. In addition, Rev.12:6, 14 says that the woman who is figuratively representing Israel, flees out into the wilderness where she will be cared for during that 1260 days i.e. the last 3 1/2 years. So the remnant of Israel will be cared for by God out in the wilderness until the Lord returns to the earth.
"Still another angel, with authority over the fire, came from the altar and called out in a loud voice to the angel with the sharp sickle, “Swing your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the vine of the earth, because its grapes are ripe.”
So the angel swung his sickle over the earth and gathered the grapes of the earth, and he threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and the blood that flowed from it rose as high as the bridles of the horses for a distance of 1,600 stadia."
This second harvest appears to be one of living people and is reminiscent of Armageddon, the harvest being the destruction of the wicked on the earth, as demonstrated by the Lord trampling the winepress and the blood flowing as high as the horses bridle. However, that doesn't happen until the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, where all of the nations are gathered and the Euphrates is dried up to make way for the kings of the east. The bowl judgments don't begin until chapter 16 and Armageddon would follow them.
These two harvests are still in my spiritual cupboard, as the Spirit has not yet revealed the meaning of these to me personally.
What information do you have to make you believe that the first harvest is the gathering of the Jews?
I have many questions on this pre-trib rapture that just don't seem to make sense to me.
This may sound childish, IDK but why on earth would he say those that endure until the end will be saved if indeed they didn't have to endure until the end? What would be the point in watching and being ready if in fact, the rapture was coming to take us all away anyhow?
What exactly do you all think getting ready for the rapture will be? Do you think he will show up at a secret location to take us all away? I mean aren't we given a warning in Matthew 24 not to go looking for him? Wont he show up just like he said? And why would he say that he would gather his elect immediately after the tribulation if in fact he was rapturing us away before it?
Matthew 24
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
This may sound childish, IDK but why on earth would he say those that endure until the end will be saved if indeed they didn't have to endure until the end? What would be the point in watching and being ready if in fact, the rapture was coming to take us all away anyhow?
What exactly do you all think getting ready for the rapture will be? Do you think he will show up at a secret location to take us all away? I mean aren't we given a warning in Matthew 24 not to go looking for him? Wont he show up just like he said? And why would he say that he would gather his elect immediately after the tribulation if in fact he was rapturing us away before it?
Matthew 24
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
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Gods words are very clear, dispensationalism (Falsely Teaches) 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 below is a (Pre-Trib) Rapture of the church to heaven?
The words of God below clearly shows, the 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 is the future second coming, (Resurrection Of The Dead In Christ) and Catching up of the living, (On The Last Day) Don't be deceived, its plain and simple before your eyes.
(The Last Day Resurrection)
John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
(The Last Day Resurrection And Judgement Of All)
John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(The Last Day Judgement)
John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
(The Second Coming And Last Day Resurrection)
1 Thessalonians 4:14-17KJV
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The words of God below clearly shows, the 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 is the future second coming, (Resurrection Of The Dead In Christ) and Catching up of the living, (On The Last Day) Don't be deceived, its plain and simple before your eyes.
(The Last Day Resurrection)
John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
(The Last Day Resurrection And Judgement Of All)
John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(The Last Day Judgement)
John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
(The Second Coming And Last Day Resurrection)
1 Thessalonians 4:14-17KJV
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Everything in Matthew 24 is what takes place FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (nothing in Matthew 24 is covering the Subject of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]," but instead covering the Subject of His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth).
Thus, Matt24:29-31 is parallel to the following passage (among others):
Isaiah 27:12-13 - [note WHO and IN WHAT MANNER and TO WHERE and BY WHICH TRUMPET]
12 In that day the LORD will thresh from the flowing Euphrates to the Wadi of Egypt, and you, O Israelites, will be gathered one by one. [not *as one* as WE will be, in "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"] 13 And in that day a great trumpet will sound, and those who were perishing in Assyria will come forth with those who were exiles in Egypt. And they will worship the LORD in the holy mountain at Jerusalem.
These are not "Rapture" passages... they pertain to His Second Coming to the earth.
Thus, Matt24:29-31 is parallel to the following passage (among others):
Isaiah 27:12-13 - [note WHO and IN WHAT MANNER and TO WHERE and BY WHICH TRUMPET]
12 In that day the LORD will thresh from the flowing Euphrates to the Wadi of Egypt, and you, O Israelites, will be gathered one by one. [not *as one* as WE will be, in "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"] 13 And in that day a great trumpet will sound, and those who were perishing in Assyria will come forth with those who were exiles in Egypt. And they will worship the LORD in the holy mountain at Jerusalem.
These are not "Rapture" passages... they pertain to His Second Coming to the earth.
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I was not trying to correct you personally. I was just contributing to the conversation. I am no expert on the Great Tribulation. I am simply pointing out that whatever this time is in Revelation it is the wrath of God upon man prior to the Lake of Fire and that believers will not endure these outpourings of judgment.
Most people talking about this subject call these outpourings of judgments as the same as the Great Tribulation. I suppose we have difference of opinions being presented as to what is the Great Tribulation and what are all of these judgments being poured out on the earth in a series that are clearly the wrath of God prior to the ultimate Lake of Fire.
The promises that we are to be saved from the wrath to come is most likely referring to these judgments first and of course includes the final disposition of all the wicked the Lake of Fire.
I actually assume that you know this and I am not making the assumption that you do not. If you disagreed with me I would be Shocked!!!
Horrified!!! I probably would skip lunch!!!
Most people talking about this subject call these outpourings of judgments as the same as the Great Tribulation. I suppose we have difference of opinions being presented as to what is the Great Tribulation and what are all of these judgments being poured out on the earth in a series that are clearly the wrath of God prior to the ultimate Lake of Fire.
The promises that we are to be saved from the wrath to come is most likely referring to these judgments first and of course includes the final disposition of all the wicked the Lake of Fire.
I actually assume that you know this and I am not making the assumption that you do not. If you disagreed with me I would be Shocked!!!
Horrified!!! I probably would skip lunch!!!
ὅτι οὐκ ἔθετο ἡμᾶς ὁ Θεὸς εἰς ὀργὴν ἀλλὰ εἰς περιποίησιν σωτηρίας διὰ τοῦ Κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ,
(Berean Greek New Testament 2016)
hoti theos ou tithēmi hēmeis ho eis orgē, alla eis peripoiēsis sōtēria dia ho hēmeis kyrios Iēsous Christos.
(Greek translieration, English word-order)
(NASB)
For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Notice how it's 2 opposites? Wrath or Salvation. Not appointed to wrath but to receive salvation.
The same in this verse:
John 3:36
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son
will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” (orge)
Verses which tell us that we are not appointed to wrath,
1 Thess 5:9, “For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ”
1 Thess 1:10, “And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.”
Romans 5:9, “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.”
Eph 5:6, “Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things comes the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.”
All these verses have translated the word wrath from the word "orgē "
So we are saved from, or not appointed to suffer, the “orge” wrath of God.
Examining the “wrath” that is described in Revelation, I count the word “wrath” 13 times in English translations.
In the Greek text the words translated as “wrath” are two separate words: “orge” and “thumos.”
The “orge” of God that we are promised to be saved from according to each verse above is found six times.
1 & 2. It is mentioned after the cosmic signs and the revealing of Christ (Rev 6:16-17).
Jesus told us that these signs happen immediately after the tribulation (Matt 24:29).
3. After the seventh trumpet (Rev 11:18).
4. It is used to describe the final torment of unbelievers (Rev 14:10).
5. After the seventh bowl. The cup given directly from God to Babylon (Rev 16:19).
6. It is used in connection with Christ’s Second Coming (Rev 19:15).
By contrast thumos wrath is used in.....
Rev 15:1
Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels who had seven plagues, which are the last,
because in them the wrath of God is finished. (Thumos)
Rev 16:1 calls the 7 phials of God's wrath Thumos
Basic deliniations:
Thymos – sudden passionate anger; anger boiling up then subsiding,
Orge – deliberate anger; hostile vengeance
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Lk21:12-24 is covering the events surrounding 70ad (and "BEFORE" ALL the beginning of birth pangs of vv.8-11, per v.12a).
Lk21:25-27 is covering the far-future (trib) events, [leading up to and] surrounding His Second Coming to the earth point in the chronology.
Lk21 is not covering the Subject of "our Rapture" AT ALL.
The phrase "the TIMES of the Gentiles" (which I bolded above ^ ) refers to "Gentile domination over Israel," and that started in 606/605bc (think: Neb's dream/statue/image, with Neb as "head of gold"), and which will indeed NOT be concluded until the END of the Trib (per Rev11:2-- "trodden down of the Gentiles" / "tread under foot")
... but which is NOT referring to "the Church age" [/'this present age [singular]'], and is distinct from the phrase "the FULNESS of the Gentiles be come in [G1525]." (<--re: "blindness [/a hardening]... UNTIL" Rom11:25-28)
Lk21:25-27 is covering the far-future (trib) events, [leading up to and] surrounding His Second Coming to the earth point in the chronology.
Lk21 is not covering the Subject of "our Rapture" AT ALL.
The phrase "the TIMES of the Gentiles" (which I bolded above ^ ) refers to "Gentile domination over Israel," and that started in 606/605bc (think: Neb's dream/statue/image, with Neb as "head of gold"), and which will indeed NOT be concluded until the END of the Trib (per Rev11:2-- "trodden down of the Gentiles" / "tread under foot")
... but which is NOT referring to "the Church age" [/'this present age [singular]'], and is distinct from the phrase "the FULNESS of the Gentiles be come in [G1525]." (<--re: "blindness [/a hardening]... UNTIL" Rom11:25-28)
Well, take note of what He said here, just before He was to go to the Cross:
John 16 -
12 I have yet many things to say to you, but you are not able to bear them now. 13 But when He the, Spirit of truth, shall come, He will guide you into all the truth. For He will not speak from Himself, but whatever He may hear, He will speak. And He will declare to you the things coming. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take from that which is Mine and will disclose it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Because of this, I said that He will take from that which is Mine and will disclose it to you.
[that's what we see recorded further in our NT following the 4 Gospels ... so, He wasn't done talking yet, keep reading. This also is how we heed HIS WORD. (The SEQUENCE shown in Matt22:7 and then Matt22:8 makes a similar point ) ]
John 16 -
12 I have yet many things to say to you, but you are not able to bear them now. 13 But when He the, Spirit of truth, shall come, He will guide you into all the truth. For He will not speak from Himself, but whatever He may hear, He will speak. And He will declare to you the things coming. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take from that which is Mine and will disclose it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Because of this, I said that He will take from that which is Mine and will disclose it to you.
[that's what we see recorded further in our NT following the 4 Gospels
... so, He wasn't done talking yet, keep reading. This also is how we heed HIS WORD. (The SEQUENCE shown in Matt22:7 and then Matt22:8 makes a similar point ) ]I know portions of it is specifically 70 A.D.
70 A.D. is the kick off of Judaism as those who inhabited Jerusalem were either slaughtered or escaped any direction possible. Once the Temple was destroyed, the Gospel of Christ reigned. That was the [Beginning of the Gentiles].
Then Luke mentions to the [END] of the Gentile reign and describes the Second Coming. This is about the [Tribulation and END of this Age] before the 1,000 year Reign.
It appears to me that you are mixing up ^ these two ^ , which are entirely distinct events/points in time, and descriptions:
--one being "BEFORE the GREAT"
("moon INTO BLOOD / moon became AS BLOOD" - 6th Seal events, EARLY in the Trib yrs, i.e. BEFORE the SECOND HALF)
--the other being "AFTER [the GREAT]"
("moon SHALL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT" - END of/AFTER trib yrs, i.e. AFTER the GREAT Tribulation in its ENTIRETY, i.e. AFTER the SECOND HALF)
Entirely distinct.
--one being "BEFORE the GREAT"
("moon INTO BLOOD / moon became AS BLOOD" - 6th Seal events, EARLY in the Trib yrs, i.e. BEFORE the SECOND HALF)
--the other being "AFTER [the GREAT]"
("moon SHALL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT" - END of/AFTER trib yrs, i.e. AFTER the GREAT Tribulation in its ENTIRETY, i.e. AFTER the SECOND HALF)
Entirely distinct.
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^ [to go with that post]
[bear in mind that Lk21:11 speaks of the FIRST HALF of the future trib yrs, and it says, "fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven" (in the section covering "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" [vv.8-11] at the START of the trib--EQUIVALENT of the SEALS)]
[bear in mind that Lk21:11 speaks of the FIRST HALF of the future trib yrs, and it says, "fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven" (in the section covering "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" [vv.8-11] at the START of the trib--EQUIVALENT of the SEALS)]
I forgot to add the part I'd meant to add to this:
Matt24:4-8 = Mk13:5-8 = Lk21:8-11 (<--see v.11 here, and quoted above ^ )
= "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" (EQUIVALENT to the SEALS of Rev6, at the START of the future Trib yrs)
This means that the BEGINNING of the trib years ALSO have "fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven" and not just the END of the Trib years (or "AFTER")
Matt24:4-8 = Mk13:5-8 = Lk21:8-11 (<--see v.11 here, and quoted above ^ )
= "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" (EQUIVALENT to the SEALS of Rev6, at the START of the future Trib yrs)
This means that the BEGINNING of the trib years ALSO have "fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven" and not just the END of the Trib years (or "AFTER")
No place in Revelation does Gods word teach, that the Church present on earth during the tribulation is subject to wrath, no place
Rev 11, the (Two Witnesses) will stand before the Antichrist, bringing all plagues seen in the Revelation, upon the Beast and unsaved world
A remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt
How many Hebrews were affected by the plagues in Egypt, "None"
Rev 11, the (Two Witnesses) will stand before the Antichrist, bringing all plagues seen in the Revelation, upon the Beast and unsaved world
A remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt
How many Hebrews were affected by the plagues in Egypt, "None"
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What Power will the 2 Witnesses have? The Power from the Holy Spirit inside them. They will be here until Midpoint. That means the Holy Spirit is on Earth for the first half of the Tribulation. If the Holy Spirit is here and the 2 witnesses are here, why does this exclude Believers from being here in at least the first half of Tribulation?
