Is the false teaching of pre-tribulation rapture, getting the power of "him" out of the way, who restrains the antichrist?

[Absolutely]

Sort of like voter count mismatches, etc...

2 Thessalonians 2 (ISR 1998)

11And for this reason Elohim sends them a working of delusion, for them to believe the falsehood,a
12in order that all should be judged who did not believe the truth, but have delighted in the unrighteousness.

A good start for deception would be omitting verses.

Kinda like in end times beliefs

 

[Absolutely]

Yes, the God's word is clear that the real mark will accompany worshipping with it, and it will not be worshipping God.

2 Thessalonians 2 (New King James Version)

The Great Apostasy
1Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of [a]Christ had come. 3Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [c]as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Either take of die.

The innumerable number refused it and billions die.

No postrib rapture

 

[Absolutely]

No.



Yes, filling your lamp with oil, is preparing yourself to have faith by the grace of the Holy Spirit, even to bear fruit during the time of the great tribulation, whether it will mean your death, capture or persecution by fleeing to escape in the hardships of the wilderness, for helping your fellow man through this perilous time to come fro believers, immediately before the return of the Bridegroom, and by not renouncing Christ Yeshua's name by taking the mark of the beast.

Matthew 13 (New King James Version)

Five foolish virgins' lamps not filled with true faith, by the grace of the Holy Spirit:
20But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

Five wise virgins' lamps filled with true faith, by the grace of the Holy Spirit:
23But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”

Uh....you need to compare the parables and all end times verses WITH the rapture verses.

Continually omitting is such poor basis.

Your omit,then think you proved something

 

[Absolutely]

Isn’t that what the rapture is for?

Yes rev 14 is the gathering of the Jews.
Firstfruits
Then main body of Jews.

(By Jesus sitting on a cloud during the gt).

 

[Absolutely]

It seemed kinda odd tbh.


It doesn't say that brother, it says we shall not all SLEEP.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

To be CHANGED = dying, but not resting in the grave like the others did, in other words, we are CHANGED to Spirit men then go straight to Heaven, whereas the Dead in Christ SLEPT until Jesus called us home. Verse 50 tells us flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God. Why do you think it states the Dead are raised incorruptible? It means they have no flesh, thus we have to SHED our corruption, which is our flesh, which is stained with sin, so much so Mary merely touching Jesuswoulld have defiled the offering.



I suggest you reread the passages again. We gain our glorious bodies in Heaven. The KJV is hard for some people to grasp. When it tells you the DEAD are raised incorruptible, it is referring unto them being raised as Spirit Men, we gain glorious bodies, but the Spirit Man is the HEAVENLY LIKENESS, our bodies look exactly like ur spirit man, it is not a must we have a body, God is a Spirit. But for some reason we have a body on earth and will gain one in Heaven, BUT, if you read these verses, you will see the Spirit Man is the heavenly version of us.

1 Cor. 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

We go to be with the Lord as Spirit men brother. We will be given a new body in Heaven but only after we are each judged first.



No, no, no, Mary didn't even realize who Jesus was until he spoke to her.

John 20:15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away. 16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. 17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her. 19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.

8 days later Jesus allowed doubting Thomas to touch his wounds. So, the Second Coming is a misnomer, it really means the Second Advent of Jesus Christ, 1.) The Suffering Servant 2.) The Conquering King.



You do not understand the passage brother, you need to restudy this. I am not going to say you are teaching falsely, because I understand we all see darkly at the present moment. I have erred before many times Jesus spends our whole lifetime bringing us from deception, to truth. No worries on that, I was just pointing out, that some people might get upset with that tag being thrown around, and our job 1 is to not turn people away from Christ, as Paul said I will be all things to all people to win souls. I knew a friend, who was a druggie, became a Christian, and because his church felt he should sing one song a week, he got discouraged, turned back to drugs, died of an OD. People in Church jealous of a position makes no sense to me, our job 1 is to encourage young Christians in the faith, not discourage them.



When the Holy Spirit shows me His truths, I don't change. There will be a Pre Trib Rapture, and its not that hard to understand tbh. All the facts are the facts brother. Sorry about not replying sooner. I got very sick yesterday. One of those turn the computer off and watch Perry Mason very low as a speed all day type sicknesses, splitting headache, sour stomach.

By the way, end times is my forte. So, understanding the Rapture was a must for me, I was called unto end-time prophecy.

God Bless

Pretty much so.

Needs a couple of Revisions though.

 

[Absolutely]

If I were to believe in men’s books about the rapture...I would still be reading and believing Tim LaHaye’s books. Most teachers took those books...or at least the outline of them as the gospel. Those books sold a lot of copies.

I don’t believe in the pre wrath rapture because I studied books about it. A pastor at the church I belonged too was teaching the pre trib rapture because he said that everyone wanted it..but he thought the rapture came at the end..but since people didn’t want to hear about it he didn’t teach it. Which I thought it was a shame because even though I didn’t know much except the pre trib postition..it didn’t seem right. Years later, I came across the pre wrath position and studied the Bible about it. The one part that really stops me believing it is that Jesus comes back once. You can’t have a pre trib rapture then.

Mark 13, Matthew 24 and Luke 21 all deal with the end times...
Matthew 24 starts out telling us its end times talk...

Matthew‬ ‭24:3‬ ‭
As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”​

‭‭
God’s wrath doesn’t start at the beginning of the tribulation but the end at the opening of the 7th seal. The antichrist has already been a factor and has stopped the sacrifice of the rebuilt Jewish temple. The tests came before God’s wrath not after.

Ever thought of including the actual rapture verses?

Your deal would be revealed as truth or something else.
More verses are risky to our beliefs

 

[Absolutely]

Um..no.

‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:7-13‬ ‭
Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps. The foolish said to the prudent, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ But the prudent answered, ‘No, there will not be enough for us and you too; go instead to the dealers and buy some for yourselves.’ And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut. Later the other virgins also came, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open up for us.’ But he answered, ‘Truly I say to you, I do not know you.’ Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour.​

The foolish didn’t have enough oil..asked the prudent for some and they said go get some for yourselves...so they don’t even help the foolish.
Then as the foolish were gone, Jesus came and they weren’t there to go with him and the door was shut. Means that they aren’t saved with the prudent...they missed their opportunity,

Then they went to the door and asked for Jesus to open up and He didn’t saying He never knew them. The lesson is to be on the alert because you don’t know the day or the hour of his return..and you have to be ready, the foolish weren’t ready.

Pretty much so.
What am I missing in your point?

 

[Absolutely]

Oh come on. Micro-managing? I pointed out the FACT that there is no bride in the parable.
Who said there were 10 of them?

There is a theory that is constantly referring to this one parable as a proof-text for an early resurrection based on a bride.
The bride isn't even highlighted in the parable. Yes or no? I can't remove a bride who isn't there to begin with.
You seem to feel free to add her though. That is because pre-trib teachers have taught you to lean on this verse more than
many others to support a doctrine.

Virgins are pure and undefiled.

Born again believers.

Bride of Christ.

What say you?

 

[Absolutely]

Allegories are a different literary form than a parable. This is something that is hammered home in bible college classes. Much confusion has been taught in the history of the church by trying to interpret a parable as an allegory.
Knowing the difference will help identify the intended message.
This is definitely a parable. It takes something out of common life and drives home a message. It is obvious that the message is to be ready and that there will not be time to "make things right" if you are not ready.
People need to realize that the true Gospel does not allow for a "make things right" when the trumpet blows, scenario. Now if you want to turn it into an allegory you would have to make it a pretrib rapture since the 5 foolish go off to buy oil and that would not fit into a post trib allegory. And why are they sleeping during the outpouring of the wrath of God upon the earth to destroy large percentages of mankind on the earth?
But if you take it as a parable it is simply a lesson out of daily customary life of the Jewish wedding scenario that worked for explaining how people can't bank on waiting to get ready before Jesus comes again because you are always in danger of having waited too late.
But from what I have read people in the first century were more familiar with the use of parables and knew to listen for the "clencher" the "lesson" , the "Ah Ha! moment" that was usually toward the end or at the end. In this case Jesus actually tells them the lesson just in case they didn't get it. "Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh."

"...sleeping during the wrath...?

Ok show me this in the parable.
I will wait.
Btw,reread your post. You put postrib beliefs into parable.
You omit the pretrib verses

 

[BenjaminN]

Yes we all agree he comes after the gt.

No question. It is fact.

But as usual postribs Omit Noah and the one taken/left, as Jesus framed it.

BEFORE the flood.

Before judgement.
The ark was lifted over a mile into the sky, early into that judgement,then returned FROM THE HEAVENS post judgement.

You guys need noah removed After flood.
You need lot removed AFTER sodom burned.
You need the baby Jesus removed AFTER herod's slaughter.

Now let's look at nebuchadnezzar and the hebrew children

Jesus protects In The furnace.

That is The Jews Protected in the Gt.

The gt is Jacob's trouble.
Israel's trouble.

Matthew 24 (New King James Version)

The Coming of the Son of Man
29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (People from all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, are gathered from the four winds of the world, believers scattered in the wilderness, that survived the great tribulation - The "Jacob's trouble" = the "great tribulation" doctrine is a false doctrine).


Revelation 7 (New King James Version)

A Multitude from the Great Tribulation
9After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 13Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” 14And I said to him, https://biblehub.com/nkjv/revelation/7.htm#footnotes“Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (People from all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, died in the great tribulation, and are in heaven awaiting the second coming of Christ Yeshua to earth, when He will take their soles with Him, to be resurrected with their soles uniting with their transfigured glorified bodies, to be raptured with those believers that survived the great tribulation - The "Jacob's trouble" = the "great tribulation" doctrine is a false doctrine).

 

[BenjaminN]

Either take of die.

The innumerable number refused it and billions die.

No postrib rapture

Matthew 24 (New King James Version)

22And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the [c]elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
The Coming of the Son of Man
29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The days are shortened for the sake of the elect survivors of flesh, otherwise no flesh would have survived the great tribulation. At the end God's angels gather the elect survivors, from every nation, people, tribe and tongue, from the four winds of the world. Not all the elect will survive the great tribulation though, and they are the ones referred to in Revelation 7:9-17.

Some flee into the wilderness, and escape captivity or death during the great tribulation:

Luke 21 (New King James Version)

36Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Of those that do not escape, some will be taken captive, some will be slain.

Revelation 13 (English Standard Version)

10If anyone is to be taken captive,
to captivity he goes;
if anyone is to be slain with the sword,
with the sword must he be slain.
Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints.

Those who died during the great tribulation:

Revelation 7 (New King James Version)

A Multitude from the Great Tribulation
9After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying:

“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”

13Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
14And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to [c]living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

 

[Lisamn]

My name is Benjamin in all countries I go to, an individual's name does not get translated if he travels to another country.

So..you call Him Yeshua because you think that’s His name not Jesus?

 

[BenjaminN]

So..you call Him Yeshua because you think that’s His name not Jesus?

Jesus is a translated name. Miriam (translated to Mary) never called Yeshua her son, by the name of Jesus - if you were to rewind 2000 years to Jerusalem, in Judea (together with Samaria, the two being the split kingdoms, southern and northern, of the old monarchic united kingdom of Israel, under King David), and lived there at the time of Christ Yeshua, you would not have been calling him by the translated name Jesus.

https://bit.ly/EarlyJerusalemChurch

 

[Lisamn]

Yes rev 14 is the gathering of the Jews.
Firstfruits
Then main body of Jews.

(By Jesus sitting on a cloud during the gt).

The Jews don’t get raptured. They are protected when they run to the mountains by God.

 

[Lisamn]

Ever thought of including the actual rapture verses?

Your deal would be revealed as truth or something else.
More verses are risky to our beliefs

Ok...

Isaiah‬ ‭26:19-21‬ ‭
Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise. You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew is as the dew of the dawn, And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits. Come my people, enter into your rooms And close your doors behind you; Hide for a little while Until indignation runs its course. For behold, the LORD is about to come out from His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; And the earth will reveal her bloodshed And will no longer cover her slain.


Daniel‬ ‭12:1-2‬ ‭
Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.


Matthew‬ ‭24:21-22‬ ‭
For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.


1 Corinthians 15:51-53
Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.


1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.​

 

[Lisamn]

Pretty much so.
What am I missing in your point?

I’m not sure...what are you missing?

 

[Lisamn]

Jesus is a translated name. Miriam (translated to Mary) never called Yeshua her son, by the name of Jesus - if you were to rewind 2000 years to Jerusalem, in Judea (together with Samaria, the two being the split kingdoms, southern and northern, of the old monarchic united kingdom of Israel, under King David), and lived there at the time of Christ Yeshua, you would not have been calling him by the translated name Jesus.

https://bit.ly/EarlyJerusalemChurch

Possibly...I just know His name as Jesus. I don’t think Yeshua really is His name as I was saved by the name of Jesus...not Yeshua. I get what you are saying about translated names...but at the same time I think His name is Jesus.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Possibly...I just know His name as Jesus. I don’t think Yeshua really is His name as I was saved by the name of Jesus...not Yeshua. I get what you are saying about translated names...but at the same time I think His name is Jesus.

Hebrew: Yeshua HaMashiach = Jesus the Messiah

Greek: Iésous' pronounced (ee-ay-sooce)

English spelling of Iesous is Jesus

The English spelling of Yeshua is “Joshua.”

They are all referring to the same person

 

[Lisamn]

Hebrew: Yeshua HaMashiach = Jesus the Messiah

Greek: Iésous' pronounced (ee-ay-sooce)

English spelling of Iesous is Jesus

The English spelling of Yeshua is “Joshua.”

They are all referring to the same person

Sure but we are saved by the blood of Jesus...not the blood of Joshua...the blood of Yeshua...you get the picture.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Matthew 24 (New King James Version)

15“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 20And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great tribulation ... 22And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the [c]elect’s sake those days will be shortened. 29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days ... 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 24:15-31, is referring to the Lord's return to end the age and not to the event of the church being gathered. The gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, are two separate events, with the gathering of the church taking place prior to God's wrath and the Lord's return to the earth taking place after God's wrath.

Luke 21 (English Standard Version)

36But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Luke 21:36 above, is in reference to believers escaping through being caught up prior to that day (Day of the Lord) closing on them like a trap.

Revelation 13 (English Standard Version)

10If anyone is to be taken captive,
to captivity he goes;
if anyone is to be slain with the sword,
with the sword must he be slain.
Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints.

The above is in reference to the great tribulation saints which no man can count, who are introduced in Revelation 7:9-17.

If you will notice, the word ekklesia/church is used 19 times throughout chapters 1 thru 3 and then it is never used again. It is replaced by hagios/saints which is referring to the great tribulation saints. The next time the church is used is in Revelation 22:16 which is outside of the narrative of God's wrath.

Revelation 4:1, is what call a prophetic allusion to where the church is gathered, which again is why you don't see the word 'church' listed any more, because at that point they are caught up to heaven by that voice that sounds like a trumpet, which was identified in Revelation 1:10 as the Lord's voice. That said, this puts the church as being caught up prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath.

Matthew 13 (New King James Version)

20But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 23But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”

The above is speaking about the common trials and tribulation which comes at the hands of men and the powers of darkness, where the tribulation period will be from God's direct wrath, which the church is not appointed to suffer.