The great "Wonder" "Woman" - Revelation 12
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I for ONE do not agree with your interpretations.
From what I have read you are very competent and intelligent which makes what I am going to say difficult, but when anyone comes from the "PRETERIST" position of theology.....it allways leads to error in the end.
In other words, when you get the foundation wrong....the roof will not fit.
Most Christians would be shocked to hear that Christ’s return, the resurrection of the dead, the Day of Judgment, and the new heavens and new earth occurred nearly 2000 years ago.
I say this to you with all due respect but when you post the conclusions you post, it is hard to nail down what you are saying, Since preterist illogic and connection of unrelated scriptures is so far out, it is not worth the time or effort necessary to explore the confusion to prove the method wrong: you do not seem to deal with passages at hand, but instead attack them by any possible outside angle.
The Preterist theology's corruption of scripture is so erroneous and twisted that most Christians would be unable to follow their arguments and might conclude the Bible is hopelessly confusing and in fact that is exactly what I see here.
I would love to talk the Revelation with anyone.....but that is absolutely impossible to do from a "Historic or Preterist" position.
From what I have read you are very competent and intelligent which makes what I am going to say difficult, but when anyone comes from the "PRETERIST" position of theology.....it allways leads to error in the end.
In other words, when you get the foundation wrong....the roof will not fit.
Most Christians would be shocked to hear that Christ’s return, the resurrection of the dead, the Day of Judgment, and the new heavens and new earth occurred nearly 2000 years ago.
I say this to you with all due respect but when you post the conclusions you post, it is hard to nail down what you are saying, Since preterist illogic and connection of unrelated scriptures is so far out, it is not worth the time or effort necessary to explore the confusion to prove the method wrong: you do not seem to deal with passages at hand, but instead attack them by any possible outside angle.
The Preterist theology's corruption of scripture is so erroneous and twisted that most Christians would be unable to follow their arguments and might conclude the Bible is hopelessly confusing and in fact that is exactly what I see here.
I would love to talk the Revelation with anyone.....but that is absolutely impossible to do from a "Historic or Preterist" position.
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I did not say that it would be a requirement....I said that most scholars believe that only a JEW would be allowed to speak or teach in a JEWISH Temple.
How long do you think that it would take to put up a Temple where the Dome of the Rock is now if it were destroyed????
Remember, the 1st Tabernacle was a TENT so I am thinking that it would take maybe a week.
And I do not agrre......the A/C will be a HUMAN MAN and so will the False Prophet.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (2 Thess. 2:3-4) KJV
How long do you think that it would take to put up a Temple where the Dome of the Rock is now if it were destroyed????
Remember, the 1st Tabernacle was a TENT so I am thinking that it would take maybe a week.
And I do not agrre......the A/C will be a HUMAN MAN and so will the False Prophet.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (2 Thess. 2:3-4) KJV
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The Antichrist is the false prophet.
Revelation 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received
the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Here we read of the second beast, who performs miracles in the sight of the first beast and performing those miracles in order to deceive the people!
Paul's Antichrist was called the man of sin and he is described as doing the same things for the same reason as the false prophet:
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders
Lying wonders is the same as deceiving miracles.
False prophet and the man of sin are the same person, the Antichrist.
Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
These horns are little horns of a young lamb which is a direct reference to the little horn Daniel wrote of who is also the one we know as the Antichrist.
G721
????´??
arnion
ar-nee'-on
Diminutive from G704; a lambkin: - lamb.
Total KJV occurrences: 30
The little horn of Daniel is commonly believed to be the AC John wrote about and in Revelation there is a person with two little horns who appears after the ten horned beast just as the little horn in Daniel appears after the ten horned beast. Clearly the same person is in mind here.
Daniel - ten horned beast arises, little horn comes next and is the person of authority and power over the ten horned beast. Little horn is the antichrist.
Revelation - ten horned beast arises, false prophet comes next and is the person of authority and power over the ten horned beast. False prophet is the antichrist.
Revelation 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received
the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Here we read of the second beast, who performs miracles in the sight of the first beast and performing those miracles in order to deceive the people!
Paul's Antichrist was called the man of sin and he is described as doing the same things for the same reason as the false prophet:
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders
Lying wonders is the same as deceiving miracles.
False prophet and the man of sin are the same person, the Antichrist.
Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
These horns are little horns of a young lamb which is a direct reference to the little horn Daniel wrote of who is also the one we know as the Antichrist.
G721
????´??
arnion
ar-nee'-on
Diminutive from G704; a lambkin: - lamb.
Total KJV occurrences: 30
The little horn of Daniel is commonly believed to be the AC John wrote about and in Revelation there is a person with two little horns who appears after the ten horned beast just as the little horn in Daniel appears after the ten horned beast. Clearly the same person is in mind here.
Daniel - ten horned beast arises, little horn comes next and is the person of authority and power over the ten horned beast. Little horn is the antichrist.
Revelation - ten horned beast arises, false prophet comes next and is the person of authority and power over the ten horned beast. False prophet is the antichrist.
That is not correct my friend.
Revelation 13:1-5 IS THE ANTI-CHRIST.
And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Revelation 13:11-15 IS THE FALSE PROPHET......
"And I beheld ANOTHER BEAST coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 12And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
The Anti-Christ IS THE 1st Beast and the False Prophet will be a religious leader who cause men to take the Mark of the Beast.
Revelation 13:1-5 IS THE ANTI-CHRIST.
And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Revelation 13:11-15 IS THE FALSE PROPHET......
"And I beheld ANOTHER BEAST coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 12And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
The Anti-Christ IS THE 1st Beast and the False Prophet will be a religious leader who cause men to take the Mark of the Beast.
It is correct and I proved it was. Paul's man of sin is the AC and performs miracles that deceive people and so does the false prophet making them the same person.
Daniel - ten horned beast arises, little horn comes next and is the person of authority and power over the ten horned beast. Little horn is the antichrist.
Revelation - ten horned beast arises, false prophet comes next and is the person of authority and power over the ten horned beast. False prophet is the antichrist.
Daniel - ten horned beast arises, little horn comes next and is the person of authority and power over the ten horned beast. Little horn is the antichrist.
Revelation - ten horned beast arises, false prophet comes next and is the person of authority and power over the ten horned beast. False prophet is the antichrist.
Thank you for your reply. I realize that my explanations were brief. But I could hardly be accused of the Preterist position because of my explanation and placing of the verse staring with "AND". I said it followed Chapter 4 verse 1 - "After this .... ". Now the word "After" denotes a time AFTER the Church at Laodicea. And Laodicea has Christ standing at their door and knocking. That is, without even taking the historical sequence of the Churches, as some expositors do, Laodicea has the return of Christ already accomplished. "After this ...." must be the time AFTER 1st Thessalonains 4:15-18 - the closing years of the age.
But if this is disputed, I proffer the previous three Churches, all of which are promised the second coming of Christ (2.25, 3:3, 3:10-11).
But I take your view seriously. If you saw my writings this way, others might too. And this is not what I wanted to transmit. Thank you.
But if this is disputed, I proffer the previous three Churches, all of which are promised the second coming of Christ (2.25, 3:3, 3:10-11).
But I take your view seriously. If you saw my writings this way, others might too. And this is not what I wanted to transmit. Thank you.
I am sorry my friend but you did not prove any such thing.
You posted a couple of Scriptures which contextually do not correspond to each other and do not prove that the A/C and false Prophet are the same person.
Honestly, in all my years I have never heard anyone propose such a thing.
The 10 horned beast of Daniel , the "Little horn" is the A/C. That is true.
The Horned beast of Revelation 13:11 does NOT HAVE 10 HORNS.
Revelation 13:1.........
"And I beheld ANOTHER beast coming up out of the earth; and he had TWO horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon."
Clearly, ANOTHER means a different one...not the same and this 2nd beast has TWO (2) not 10 horns are you posted.
1st beast is the A/C!
2nd beast is the False Prophet!
You posted a couple of Scriptures which contextually do not correspond to each other and do not prove that the A/C and false Prophet are the same person.
Honestly, in all my years I have never heard anyone propose such a thing.
The 10 horned beast of Daniel , the "Little horn" is the A/C. That is true.
The Horned beast of Revelation 13:11 does NOT HAVE 10 HORNS.
Revelation 13:1.........
"And I beheld ANOTHER beast coming up out of the earth; and he had TWO horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon."
Clearly, ANOTHER means a different one...not the same and this 2nd beast has TWO (2) not 10 horns are you posted.
1st beast is the A/C!
2nd beast is the False Prophet!
I take "AFTER AFTER THIS" of Rev. 4:1 differently than do you.
I believe that (meta tauta) used twice here in verse 1. It both opens and closes the 1st verse. This repetition certainly lends great emphasis and importance to this verse and apparently, John was concerned that "Amillennialists" would miss it...so he used the same phrase twice.
"I saw and behold a door was set open in heaven " and the next thing John saw was God on the throne and the church gathered around Him.
To me, that is the Rapture of the church and the evidence is it being in the throne room with God.
I believe that (meta tauta) used twice here in verse 1. It both opens and closes the 1st verse. This repetition certainly lends great emphasis and importance to this verse and apparently, John was concerned that "Amillennialists" would miss it...so he used the same phrase twice.
"I saw and behold a door was set open in heaven " and the next thing John saw was God on the throne and the church gathered around Him.
To me, that is the Rapture of the church and the evidence is it being in the throne room with God.
I did not say the AC has ten horns. He doesn't in Daniel nor in Revelation. You are the one claiming the AC has ten horns in Revelation. The ten horned beast of Revelation 13 is not the AC. It's the second beast who is the AC.
No, the 1st beast is a kingdom composed of ten smaller kingdoms. This is not the AC.
The AC is the next beast with two little horns called the false prophet.
No, the 1st beast is a kingdom composed of ten smaller kingdoms. This is not the AC.
The AC is the next beast with two little horns called the false prophet.
Hello Major!
I completely agree with you here in that, Revelation 4:1 is what I call a prophetic allusion to where the church is gathered.
In support of this, the word ekklesia/church is used 19 times throughout chapters 1 thru 3 and is never used after that and most importantly, does not appear anywhere during the narrative of God's wrath. The next time we see the church is in Rev.19:6-8 as the bride, where she attends the wedding of the Lamb, which takes place in heaven. The next time the actual word ekklesia/church is used is in Rev.22:16. This would put the church as being removed prior to Rev.6:1 which is the opening of the first seal which initiates God's wrath, followed by the rest of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
Regarding 'meta tauta' I only see it used once translated as 'after this' or 'after these things'
I completely agree with you here in that, Revelation 4:1 is what I call a prophetic allusion to where the church is gathered.
In support of this, the word ekklesia/church is used 19 times throughout chapters 1 thru 3 and is never used after that and most importantly, does not appear anywhere during the narrative of God's wrath. The next time we see the church is in Rev.19:6-8 as the bride, where she attends the wedding of the Lamb, which takes place in heaven. The next time the actual word ekklesia/church is used is in Rev.22:16. This would put the church as being removed prior to Rev.6:1 which is the opening of the first seal which initiates God's wrath, followed by the rest of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
Regarding 'meta tauta' I only see it used once translated as 'after this' or 'after these things'
See these two words at both the beginning of verse 1 and at the end of verse 1 (meta tauta):
Revelation 4:1 Greek Text Analysis (biblehub.com) [at TOP and at BOTTOM of verse]
____________
Notice also the word (in 4:1 ^ ) for "I will SHEW [G1166]" and how that connects back with what 1:1 had said [and 22:6 also], "... TO SHEW [G1166] unto His servants things which must come to pass in quickness [noun]" (not things which would transpire over some 2000 yrs).
Revelation 4:1 Greek Text Analysis (biblehub.com) [at TOP and at BOTTOM of verse]
____________
Notice also the word (in 4:1 ^ ) for "I will SHEW [G1166]" and how that connects back with what 1:1 had said [and 22:6 also], "... TO SHEW [G1166] unto His servants things which must come to pass in quickness [noun]" (not things which would transpire over some 2000 yrs).
Hello ewq1938!
First beast = antichrist
Second beast = False prophet
The second beast/false prophet will be the leader of the woman who rides the beast, which will be that last-day religious system who will utilize/ride the beast to regain her religious authority, which is Roman Catholicism.
"the woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”
At the time that John was receiving this information, Rome was that city that ruled over the kings of the earth. Her affiliation with the antichrist/beast will afford her the religious power and more, that she had prior to 1798, where her popes ruled over kings and their armies via the threat of excommunication.
"The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits"
The city of Rome was literally built on and is famous for her seven hills/mountains.
"The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet"
Purple and scarlet are the colors worn by the Bishops and Cardinals.
The second beast/false prophet will be the one who performs the miracles, signs and wonders on behalf of the first beast/antichrist. He will be a literal man who will be empowered by the beast that comes up from the Abyss at the sounding of the 5th trumpet, who is that angel of the Abyss who once was, now is not and yet will come out of the Abyss.
The dogma within Roman Catholicism is that the pope is the head of the church and that all people on the earth are to come under his authority. Anyone outside of the Roman Catholic church is a heretic. The problem with that has been that she does not have the power to physically enforce that. However, when that antichrist/beast is revealed, she will regain her power. In fact it is her leader, the false prophet/pope who will institute the mark of the beast, causing all people to receive it and without it no one will be able to buy or sell.
"Both the beast and the false prophet were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur."
As Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, the antichrist/first beast and the second beast/false prophet, will be captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire. Therefore, the man of sin aka antichrist and the second beast aka false prophet, will not be the same, but will be two individual persons.
First beast = antichrist
Second beast = False prophet
The second beast/false prophet will be the leader of the woman who rides the beast, which will be that last-day religious system who will utilize/ride the beast to regain her religious authority, which is Roman Catholicism.
"the woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”
At the time that John was receiving this information, Rome was that city that ruled over the kings of the earth. Her affiliation with the antichrist/beast will afford her the religious power and more, that she had prior to 1798, where her popes ruled over kings and their armies via the threat of excommunication.
"The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits"
The city of Rome was literally built on and is famous for her seven hills/mountains.
"The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet"
Purple and scarlet are the colors worn by the Bishops and Cardinals.
The second beast/false prophet will be the one who performs the miracles, signs and wonders on behalf of the first beast/antichrist. He will be a literal man who will be empowered by the beast that comes up from the Abyss at the sounding of the 5th trumpet, who is that angel of the Abyss who once was, now is not and yet will come out of the Abyss.
The dogma within Roman Catholicism is that the pope is the head of the church and that all people on the earth are to come under his authority. Anyone outside of the Roman Catholic church is a heretic. The problem with that has been that she does not have the power to physically enforce that. However, when that antichrist/beast is revealed, she will regain her power. In fact it is her leader, the false prophet/pope who will institute the mark of the beast, causing all people to receive it and without it no one will be able to buy or sell.
"Both the beast and the false prophet were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur."
As Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, the antichrist/first beast and the second beast/false prophet, will be captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire. Therefore, the man of sin aka antichrist and the second beast aka false prophet, will not be the same, but will be two individual persons.
Agreed! It is the events described that will take place in quickness.
"After this I looked and saw a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had previously heard speak to me like a trumpet was saying, “Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after these things.”
After this = what John saw after the 'what is now,' i.e after the church period and the events that will take place.
He made it sound like the reference to 'after this' was back to back, which is why I commented on it.
After this = What John saw and heard after the letters to the seven churches which represents the 'what is now'
After this = The events which will take place after the 'what is now' which will be the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and all related events.
"After this I looked and saw a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had previously heard speak to me like a trumpet was saying, “Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after these things.”
After this = what John saw after the 'what is now,' i.e after the church period and the events that will take place.
He made it sound like the reference to 'after this' was back to back, which is why I commented on it.
After this = What John saw and heard after the letters to the seven churches which represents the 'what is now'
After this = The events which will take place after the 'what is now' which will be the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and all related events.
"The beast that you saw— once was, and now is not, but is about to come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction."
The beast above, as the scripture states, is that beast who will come up out of the Abyss
"The beast that was, and now is not, is an eighth king, who belongs to the other seven and is going into destruction."
The antichrist/man of lawlessness will be empowered by the beast who comes up out of the abyss. The man of lawlessness is not the false prophet. There is nothing in the scripture that would support the antichrist as being the second beast. On the contrary, the first beast is the antichrist empowered by the beast who comes up out of the Abyss.
The beast above, as the scripture states, is that beast who will come up out of the Abyss
"The beast that was, and now is not, is an eighth king, who belongs to the other seven and is going into destruction."
The antichrist/man of lawlessness will be empowered by the beast who comes up out of the abyss. The man of lawlessness is not the false prophet. There is nothing in the scripture that would support the antichrist as being the second beast. On the contrary, the first beast is the antichrist empowered by the beast who comes up out of the Abyss.