The great "Wonder" "Woman" - Revelation 12

[Rondonmon]

I take "AFTER AFTER THIS" of Rev. 4:1 differently than do you.

I believe that (meta tauta) used twice here in verse 1. It both opens and closes the 1st verse. This repetition certainly lends great emphasis and importance to this verse and apparently, John was concerned that "Amillennialists" would miss it...so he used the same phrase twice.

"I saw and behold a door was set open in heaven " and the next thing John saw was God on the throne and the church gathered around Him.

To me, that is the Rapture of the church and the evidence is it being in the throne room with God.

El correcto my brother, and we see the 24 Elders seem to have the "PROMISES" to the 7 Churches, in Rev. 2:10 those who OVERCOME are promised a crown of life, in Rev. 3:5 those who OVERCOME are promised a White robe (raiment), and in Rev. 3:21 the overcomers are promised to sit amidst God's THRONES, and in Rev. 4:4 the 24 Elders sit in God's throne room, with White Raiment on with Crowns on their heads. Nothing says Church/Bride any louder than this. And in 1 Chronicles 24, we see there were 24 Orders of the Priesthood, and in Rev. 5:9-10, the Multitude that came out of every nation, are called Kings and Priests. Its definitely the Church in Heaven BEFORE the Seals are ever opened !!

Rev. 4:1 ends the Church Age, Jesus' VOICE is as a Trump. In a Judean wedding, especially a Galilean wedding, they used a shofar to call the wedding guests because it was usually past midnight when the father sent the groom, and if you missed the call (5 Virgins) you were locked out of the wedding. So much symbolism, and detail.

And I do not agrre......the A/C will be a HUMAN MAN and so will the False Prophet.

These beliefs go 10,000 different ways on some of these sites. Sometimes I really wonder where these ideas come from tbh.

You seem like a person with a keen sense of understanding God's truths when you see them. Have you ever wondered who the False Prophet type was? Studying, or really, doing an Exegesis on Daniel 11, where I named every king, how they came to power, etc. I came across a historical figure named Jason who Brobed Antiochus Epiphanes to be named the Jewish High Priest, thereby having his Pios High Priest brother Onias III killed, his real name was Yeshua, he took the Greek name, Jason. He then tried to Hellenizee the Jews, leading to the Maccabean Revolt. It hit me like a ton of bricks, this was the False Prophet TYPE and he lived alongside the Anti-Crist TYPE in Antiochus !! So, from this point on I knew the coming False Prophet would be a Jewish High Priest. But of course, I had to test the spirit, LOL. So, off I went. I asked my self, why would God tell John about a False Prophet, but stay completely silent about it when giving Daniel His end-time Prophesies.

Boom, it hit me, if Gabriel/Jesus (Man in Linen) had given Daniel the Prophet about the coming False Prophet High Priest, the Jews would have killed every other High Priest, just like when King Herod tried to kill baby Jesus, but by the time John wrote Revelation, Jerusalem had been sacked. But then I saw the False Prophet in Daniel, but he wasn't named. He is the 1290 Event, he TAKES AWAY the Sacrifice and places the AoD. Rev. 13 (as you described above) says the False Prophet places the IMAGE of the Beat in the Temple, so the 1290 event is the Jewish High Priest, not the Anti-Christ, which it could never be, he only conquers Jerusalem/holy peoples at the 1260, which is 30 days after the 1290 event. As I went, all things checked out, did the 1290 being the false Prophet make more sense than the Anti-Christ? Yes, I often wondered why the Jews got a SIGN to Flee Judea as they were being Conquered, well, they don't, they get a 30-day notice so to speak, FLEE Judea !! NOW !! Don't look back, so that made sense.

But if the Jews Fled Judea, they had to have already repented, and read Matt. 24:15-17 to understand this right? My studies continued. Did this fit? YES, Malachi 4:5-6 says Elijah will be sent back BEFORE the Great And Dreadful Day of the Lord(1260 event) to turn Israel back unto God. Zechariah 13:8-9 says that 1/3 of the Jews repent and call God their God again, and God calls them His own again. There will be 2/3 who refuse to repent and they will thus perish. The very next verse (Zechariah 14:1-2) astonished me, it says Behold, the Day of the Lord cometh, then Jerusalem gets sacked, so the 1/3 REPENT BEFORE the DOTL, just like Mallacj and Zechariah prophesied, thus the Jews repent before the 1290 event, that is how they know to Flee Judea.

That only left the 1335, and it was now obvious to me what the 1335 was, THE BLESSING was the Two-witnesses showing up to turn Israel back unto God !! But did this fit the END TIME TIMELINES? Yes, the Two-witnesses die before the Beast dies, they die at the 2nd Woe, he dies at the 7th Vial, so their 1260 day offices, as ordained by God, are off-set. The Two-witnesses show up 75 days before the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem at the 1260 to turn Israel back unto God,

The 1335 is the Two-witnesses showing up 1335 days before the Second Coming ENDS ALL THESE WONDERS !!

The 1290 is the False Prophet taking away THE SACRIFICE (He stops Jesus Worship, LOL its true) in the temple of God and placing an Image of the (IMHO) E.U. Beast in the Temple of God. Why would Jesus/Gabriel talk about a DEFILED meat Sacrifice being taken away? They wouldn't, and you can't defile what is already defiled, the Temple is cleansed, the Jews accept Jesus as their Messiah. This angry High Priest then forbids Jesus Worship in the Temple and places the E.U. Presidents Image up. (Stands where it ought not). This all happens, 1290 days before the Second Coming ENDS ALL THESE WONDERS.

The 1260 is the Anti-Christ conquering Jerusalem, thus he rules the holy peoples for 1260 days until the Second Coming of Jesus Christ ENDS ALL THESE WONDERS!!

I got this via verse 8 tbh. I noticed Daniel asked the EXACT SAME QUESTION as the Angel asked Jesus, WHO LONG, thus I was like, well, this means the answer to the 1290 and 1335 has to have the same pattern. Each is telling us about an event, and how long it is from said event until the Second Coming ends all these wonders.

This is kinda deep, so not many people even get it a wee bit. I see these things that are clear to me, things that just blows my mind.

God Bless.

 

[ewq1938]

The first beast is ten kings with kingdoms spread out within 7 mountains. That is a kingdom not a person. It arises out of the sea.

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

"The beast that you saw— once was, and now is not, but is about to come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction."

The beast above, as the scripture states, is that beast who will come up out of the Abyss

"The beast that was, and now is not, is an eighth king, who belongs to the other seven and is going into destruction."

The antichrist/man of lawlessness will be empowered by the beast who comes up out of the abyss. The man of lawlessness is not the false prophet. There is nothing in the scripture that would support the antichrist as being the second beast. On the contrary, the first beast is the antichrist empowered by the beast who comes up out of the Abyss.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

ANSWERS IN BOLD RED

The great "Wonder" "Woman" - Revelation 12

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Let's discuss these passages from the Bible.

Some questions to think about:

Who is this great "Wonder" "Woman"?
Old testament Israel ( more specifically Jacob and his family)

Who is this great "Red" "Dragon"?
Satan

Who is this "child"?
Jacob's son Joseph

What is the "Sun"?
from Joseph's dream

What is the "moon"?
from Joseph's dream

What are the "twelve stars"?
Jacob's twelve sons

What are the "seven heads"?
Seven years of plenty

What are "the ten horns"?
The ten sons which sold Joseph into slavery, Benjamin was too young or not born when this happened.

What are the "seven crowns" upon the "seven heads"?
Seven years of famine (Joseph ruled during famine)

What is the "tail"?
A third of the angels in heaven sided with satan and were kicked out of heaven and cast to the earth

is the "third part"?
A third of the angels in heaven sided with satan and were kicked out of heaven and cast to the earth

What is "of the stars of Heaven"?
stars in heaven are the angels.

What is the "rod of Iron"?
Joseph ruled fairly and benevolently over the world and his people.

What is this "caught up to God and to His throne"?
Joseph as thought dead by Jacob, Joseph as a Christ-like characacter. Joseph suffered and saved Israel from famine was a foreshadow of Jesus who suffered and saved his people

 

[ewq1938]

Who is this "child"?
Jacob's son Joseph

Joseph wasn't caught up to the throne in heaven nor was destined to rule the nations with a rod of iron. Those identify Christ only.

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Identifying this man child is easy enough. Who was caught up to God's throne and was to rule all nations with a rod of iron?

"who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron"

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Of course the child who would become a man that would rule over ALL NATIONS with a rod of iron is Jesus Christ.


"caught up unto God, and to his throne"

That's exactly what happened to Jesus:


Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Mar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.


Luk 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
Luk 24:50 And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
Luk 24:51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

Rev_3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.


The man child is also not the Church. The only time the church is mentioned is the last verse Of Revelation 12, when Satan goes to make war against her. The church is also a female in the language of Rev since she is the bride and soon to be wife. The church is never a male child because that would make for a homosexual marriage and that is clear error.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

Joseph wasn't caught up to the throne in heaven nor was destined to rule the nations with a rod of iron. Those identify Christ only.

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Identifying this man child is easy enough. Who was caught up to God's throne and was to rule all nations with a rod of iron?

"who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron"

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Of course the child who would become a man that would rule over ALL NATIONS with a rod of iron is Jesus Christ.


"caught up unto God, and to his throne"

That's exactly what happened to Jesus:


Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Mar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.


Luk 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
Luk 24:50 And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
Luk 24:51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

Rev_3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.


The man child is also not the Church. The only time the church is mentioned is the last verse Of Revelation 12, when Satan goes to make war against her. The church is also a female in the language of Rev since she is the bride and soon to be wife. The church is never a male child because that would make for a homosexual marriage and that is clear error.

Think about what I wrote because I have fit everything together perfectly.

Revelation 4:4 refers to 24 thrones around the throne. Joseph very well is one of the 24 elders seated at one of these 24 thrones.

Please re-consider what I have written.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The first beast is ten kings with kingdoms spread out within 7 mountains. That is a kingdom not a person. It arises out of the sea.

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

What does the law have to do with the identities of the antichrist and the false prophet?

God's wrath will be upon the entire earth during that time. And everything that takes place during that time, including all that the beast and the false prophet do, takes place within the time of God's wrath, also known as 'The Day of the Lord."

 

[ewq1938]

What does the law have to do with the identities of the antichrist and the false prophet?

It has nothing to do with it.

God's wrath will be upon the entire earth during that time. And everything that takes place during that time, including all that the beast and the false prophet do, takes place within the time of God's wrath, also known as 'The Day of the Lord."

The GT is the wrath of satan not God's wrath. Revelation 11 says God's wrath comes when the 7th trump sounds and the 6th seal also proves that.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.[/QUOTE]

 

[Corban]

I take "AFTER AFTER THIS" of Rev. 4:1 differently than do you.

I believe that (meta tauta) used twice here in verse 1. It both opens and closes the 1st verse. This repetition certainly lends great emphasis and importance to this verse and apparently, John was concerned that "Amillennialists" would miss it...so he used the same phrase twice.

"I saw and behold a door was set open in heaven " and the next thing John saw was God on the throne and the church gathered around Him.

To me, that is the Rapture of the church and the evidence is it being in the throne room with God.

I am familiar with this understanding. I cannot agree with it because 24 is not the number of the Church. It is the number of the courses that Moses, and David later, established for the priests to serve the Tabernacle/Temple. As you know, Moses, and David, planned the Tabernacle/Temple on the one in heaven. If Moses and David followed "the Pattern" of the heavenly, it is here that they would have seen, and copied, the 24 courses of priestly service. That they are "elders", and have "crowns" before our Lord Jesus is crowned, indicates to me that they are very ancient. If it is to be the Church, then we have that major difficulty besides the number 24 - the difficulty of Christians having crowns before our Lord Jesus.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

That they are "elders", and have "crowns" before our Lord Jesus is crowned, indicates to me that they are very ancient. If it is to be the Church, then we have that major difficulty besides the number 24 - the difficulty of Christians having crowns before our Lord Jesus.

Who says the 24 elders have "crowns/stephanous" before our Lord Jesus?

Because, in chpt 3 (in the section of "the things WHICH ARE"), it already had informed us (of Jesus' words, saying): "21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." (3:21)

But what is being shown AFTER "the things WHICH ARE" are "the things with MUST COME TO PASS *after these*" (and "things which must come to pass in quickness [noun]"). Thus, well after Jesus Himself "overcame" and "am set down with my Father in his throne."



3:5 had said, "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment" (check, for the 24 elders)...

and 2:26-27 had said, "26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father." (usually "thrones" are for such purposes; so, check, for the 24 elders)...

and 3:11 had said, "hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown/stephanon." (check, for the 24 elders)...



But just because 5:6 says, "And I saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, a Lamb standing as having been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God having been sent out into all the earth" ... does not mean this present scene with the 24 elders (in 5:6 and context) was taking place way back in the first century (as though even BEFORE what 3:21 ^ had said of Him ??)... The wording, "STANDING [perfect participle] as having been slain [perfect participle]," (as I see it) is that John's attention was being drawn to Him there, now/at this point in his being "shown" the scene, if that makes sense.

(I do not deny the text [esp 5:6] provides timing clues [I believe it DOES]... re: the "future" aspects of the Book/ the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" aspects [as opposed to "the things WHICH ARE" aspects (chpts 2-3), which are NOT things which are said "must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]," as these others are from 4:1[/1:1/1:19c] forward (thru chpt 19) are said must, i.e. the 7 trib yrs])

 

[Corban]

Who says the 24 elders have "crowns/stephanous" before our Lord Jesus?

Because, in chpt 3 (in the section of "the things WHICH ARE"), it already had informed us (of Jesus' words, saying): "21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." (3:21)

But what is being shown AFTER "the things WHICH ARE" are "the things with MUST COME TO PASS *after these*" (and "things which must come to pass in quickness [noun]"). Thus, well after Jesus Himself "overcame" and "am set down with my Father in his throne."



3:5 had said, "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment" (check, for the 24 elders)...

and 2:26-27 had said, "26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father." (usually "thrones" are for such purposes; so, check, for the 24 elders)...

and 3:11 had said, "hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown/stephanon." (check, for the 24 elders)...



But just because 5:6 says, "And I saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, a Lamb standing as having been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God having been sent out into all the earth" ... does not mean this present scene with the 24 elders (in 5:6 and context) was taking place way back in the first century (as though even BEFORE what 3:21 ^ had said of Him ??)... The wording, "STANDING [perfect participle] as having been slain [perfect participle]," (as I see it) is that John's attention was being drawn to Him there, now/at this point in his being "shown" the scene, if that makes sense.

(I do not deny the text [esp 5:6] provides timing clues [I believe it DOES]... re: the "future" aspects of the Book/ the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" aspects [as opposed to "the things WHICH ARE" aspects (chpts 2-3), which are NOT things which are said "must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]," as these others are from 4:1[/1:1/1:19c] forward (thru chpt 19) are said must, i.e. the 7 trib yrs])

In any debate, one must not only bring your arguments, but you have to show the opponent's argument to be doubtful, or even wrong. If we examine your proposal you proffer scriptures that are in the future tense. So what we have to do is discover the sequence of events to establish when crowns are apportioned. Your offer of Revelation 3:21 does not concern crowns, but a Seat of Authority. Joseph was second in Egypt, not by a crown, but by a Seat of Authority. Jesus has, since Pentecost, "all power and suthority in heaven and on earth", but His Father reserves the crown. So long as our Lord Jesus is HEAD of the Church, He rules by delegated authority from the Father. But for His duty ON EARTH, our Lord Jesus receives His OWN THRONE and CROWN.

For His duty ON EARTH, not as Head of the Church, but as HEIR of all things, and King of kings, our Lord Jesus leaves the Father's throne, and then receives His own in Revelation 4 and 5. He is then worthy to open the seals that will pour out God's judgment on the earth. And in Chapter 6 he receives a crown for duties ON EARTH. As already said, your scriptures show that crowns are to be given to Christians, and even that these crowns are already booked. But the grammar indicates that though booked, they can still be retracted. So, the question is; When actually do Christians get their crowns? Let us examine the chiefest Apostle - Paul, in 2nd Timothy 4:8, the other 12 Apostles in Matthew 19:28 and Peter, chiefest one of them, in 1st Peter 5:4.

"Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing"

"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

"And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away."

It is at once clear that our crowns are apportioned at the Bema, in the clouds, when our Lord Jesus as arrived in the clouds and we are caught up to meet Him. Thus, NO CHRISTIAN receives his/her crown BEFORE our Lord Jesus.

Lastly, there is a principle that God has decreed concerning His beloved Son Jesus. It is that

"And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence" (Colossians 1:18). In matters pertaining to heaven, God has His government - of which Lucifer was Covering Cherub. But God's councils are that His beloved Son, Who made all things, and is Heir to all things, to have preeminence. The 24 elders are appointed and crowned IN HEAVEN was made all those eons ago. One was placed even higher than them as the Covering Cherub - the Mediator between all of creation and a Holy God. But God's plan fro them was not eternal. There would come a time when Jesus would replace Lucifer as Covering Cherub (Jn.14:6), and His own service to God's House would lower the rank of the 24 Elders - without removing them. His eternal plans is recorded in Ephesians 1:10;

"That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him"

Darby, or the Amplified, render this verse better.

"for [the] administration of the fulness of times; to head up all things in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things upon the earth; in him"

In times past God has established a government for the universe. But the scheme of things was not permanent. God's ultimate plan was to "head up" this government IN Christ. The Greek is "anakephalaioō". the implication of this word is more than rule. Because our Lord Jesus is Maker AND Sustainer of the universe, His relationship with the created things is organic. He does not merely rule like a King, but His intrinsic power sustains and rejuvenates the created things. Thus He is primarily a HEAD.

In summary of the sequence of things;

1. God established a government for heaven and its Tabernacle after its creation
2. The courses of service* in the heavenly Tabernacle are 24, which Moses and David copied for the earthly Tabernacle
3. The courses in heaven, which is much older than the earth, were led by Cherubs who by virtue of their age and length of service, are called "Elders"
4. Jesus exercises "authority" from His Father's throne while He builds the Church. In this time He does not remove Gentile government
5. At a certain point the Father decides that the times of the Gentile are full and commands a change of government on earth, and which will later affect heaven too. The Elders relinquish their authority to Christ
6. Our Lord Jesus, Who has sat in His Father's throne for 2 millennia, receives His own throne
7. He immediately acts to start the change of government by opening the seals and starting His descent to earth
8. He pauses in the clouds to judge the Church and apportion crowns to the worthy Christians
9. He then leaves the clouds and descends to earth to save and judge Israel
10. His leaving the clouds ends in Armageddon and the end of Gentile government
11. He establishes His Kingdom on earth with the Christians who were counted worthy, ruling Gentile cities with a rod of iron

* Their priestly service is seen in Chapter 4 as they carry the praise and prayer of the redeemed saints to God, just as the Levites who served inside the tent carried Israel's into the Holy Place.

 

[Godcares]

Dear Everyone

1. A number of you are saying that the woman in Revelation 12 is unbelieving Israel, but that cannot be true.

Romans 11:20 states that unbelieving Israel is broken off and no such reference is made of the woman in Revelation 12.

Romans 11:20 - “Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:”

2. Also there are two women in the book of Revelation and comparing the two women will provide a better understanding as to who the woman of Revelation 12 is:

• The woman in Revelation 12 is clothed in natural beauty of the sun. Psalm 84:11 says “For the Lord God is a sun and shield: the Lord will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.”
• The woman in Revelation 17 is clothed in gold and precious stones and is called a harlot.

The following bible verses describe Israel when she was unfaithful to God. Israel is accused of being a harlot and committing adultery when she is unfaithful. Treachery is also another word for unfaithfulness.

• Ezekiel 16:13-15 - “Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom. And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord God. But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.”
• Jeremiah 3:20 - “Surely as a wife treacherously departeth from her husband, so have ye dealt treacherously with me, O house of Israel, saith the Lord.”
• Jeremiah 3:8 -“And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.”
• Jeremiah 3:11 - “And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.”

Therefore when you compare the woman in Revelation 12 to the one in Revelation 17, it can be concluded that the woman in Revelation 12 is the believing faithful Israel.

Another interpretation of the woman other than Israel

Israel is not the only one referred to as a woman in the bible. The following bible verses insinuate that the church is also a woman:

• 2 Corinthians 11:2 - “For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.”
• Ephesians 5:23 – “For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.”

Israel of the Old Testament is also called a church. You read his in the book of Acts:

• Acts 7:37-38 - “This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:”

The meaning of church is a group of believers. And it does not apply to Christians only, but Israel as well.

Therefore it is also reasonable to also conclude that the woman of Revelation 12 represents the true faithful church or true faithful believers.
And the woman of Revelation 17 represents the false unfaithful church or false unfaithful believers.

 

[Lanolin]

Well am glad that's cleared up because I'm really tired of people going on about women this and women that as if we can't be anything other than cooks and cleaners and slaves/whores to men.

Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the Lord, she shall be praised. Proverbs 31:31