The great "Wonder" "Woman" - Revelation 12

[Major]

I appreciate your understanding of the matter. I will comment on a few points, but my understanding, with scriptures is in posting # 7. As in any debate, you'll have to answer the points established there before convincing me of yours above. Even more, your points above I will show to be doubtful.

• Revelation 12 concerns BOTH "signs". Verse 1-2 concern the Woman, and verse 3 the "sign" which is a Dragon. But we know that Satan is an angel, so "Dragon" is symbolic. Thus also the Woman is symbolic.
• I understand 7 (seven) to be the number of completion in time. The number 12 (twelve) is the number of completion in eternity.
• Satan's rule is limited to a period before Adam (Isa.14 and Ezek.28), PLUS six-one-thousand-year periods after the earth is given to man but who conceded it to Satan = 7
• Israel - 12 Tribes - receive the Promised Land for "an everlasting possession". The Church - 12 Apostles - will reign for ever (Rev.22:5)
• The Beast arises from the sea, we agree. But 2nd Peter 1:20 forbids private interpretation. From were do you get the "Mediterranean? Much more, the "sea" in Parable is the Gentile Nations (Isa.9:1; Ezek.26:3-5). The Beast is a Gentile king, as Daniel 9:26 predicted
• The Beast cannot conquer the E. U. to get power. His power comes VOLUNTARILY from 10 kings (Rev.17:12-13)
• The Beast was one of FIVE kings who ruled at John's time, and had died. One was still ruling, and one was to come a short while - making seven Gentile Roman kings. The Beast is the eigth. Again, we must interpret scripture with scripture, not fallen men's thoughts. "Eight" is the number of resurrection because Christ was raised "on the morrow after the Sabbath". So also the Beast, he is of the five Caesars already dead during John's time, and will be resurrected "out of time" as the last Caesar. The Abyss is Hades (Matt.12:40)

I will advance, as my answer to your second paragraph, my posting # 7. We can compare notes after you have read it.

Thanks for the exchange brother. More than one will profit from it. Go well.

Mr. Corban....you had indicted that you wanted me to address a couple of points you wanted to make.

I had told you that I as well as you had attended DTS and I would be later to speak with you.

Now is later.

What are you concerns.??

 

[Corban]

Mr. Corban....you had indicted that you wanted me to address a couple of points you wanted to make.

I had told you that I as well as you had attended DTS and I would be later to speak with you.

Now is later.

What are you concerns.??

Hello to you too and thanks for getting back to me. First, if you read my postings I made no claim to being a student of DTS. I confirmed that Hal Lindsey was. But maybe our joviality over both being "country boys" was misleading. I do apologize for that misunderstanding if my wording was obscure.

Next, I do believe it was you who had concerns. It was my apparent audacity to challenge Hal Lindsey. After your defense of brother Hal, I suggested that you take my posting in which I challenged brother Hal, pick any point, and show it to be wrong. I made the suggestion recorded in the posting, which you have just answered, and which to my best knowledge, brother Hal Lindsey did not make, but which is crucial to the doctrine of the Rapture - especially a Pre-Tribulation Rapture for all the Church.

I await your comments on those three, or maybe four scriptures which show the Pre-Tribulation Rapture to be conditional.

Go well and God bless.

 

[ewq1938]

1335 = the Two-witnesses showing up 1335 days before the 2nd Coming ends all of these Wonders Daniel was seeing.

You are making two errors here.

1. Daniel never wrote about any such "two witnesses".
2. Revelation does not speak of 1335 days.

You are mixing two very different prophecies together and coming up with a false result.

 

[Major]

I appreciate your understanding of the matter. I will comment on a few points, but my understanding, with scriptures is in posting # 7. As in any debate, you'll have to answer the points established there before convincing me of yours above. Even more, your points above I will show to be doubtful.

• Revelation 12 concerns BOTH "signs". Verse 1-2 concern the Woman, and verse 3 the "sign" which is a Dragon. But we know that Satan is an angel, so "Dragon" is symbolic. Thus also the Woman is symbolic.
• I understand 7 (seven) to be the number of completion in time. The number 12 (twelve) is the number of completion in eternity.
• Satan's rule is limited to a period before Adam (Isa.14 and Ezek.28), PLUS six-one-thousand-year periods after the earth is given to man but who conceded it to Satan = 7
• Israel - 12 Tribes - receive the Promised Land for "an everlasting possession". The Church - 12 Apostles - will reign for ever (Rev.22:5)
• The Beast arises from the sea, we agree. But 2nd Peter 1:20 forbids private interpretation. From were do you get the "Mediterranean? Much more, the "sea" in Parable is the Gentile Nations (Isa.9:1; Ezek.26:3-5). The Beast is a Gentile king, as Daniel 9:26 predicted
• The Beast cannot conquer the E. U. to get power. His power comes VOLUNTARILY from 10 kings (Rev.17:12-13)
• The Beast was one of FIVE kings who ruled at John's time, and had died. One was still ruling, and one was to come a short while - making seven Gentile Roman kings. The Beast is the eigth. Again, we must interpret scripture with scripture, not fallen men's thoughts. "Eight" is the number of resurrection because Christ was raised "on the morrow after the Sabbath". So also the Beast, he is of the five Caesars already dead during John's time, and will be resurrected "out of time" as the last Caesar. The Abyss is Hades (Matt.12:40)

I will advance, as my answer to your second paragraph, my posting # 7. We can compare notes after you have read it.

Thanks for the exchange brother. More than one will profit from it. Go well.

Dear "Corban"....as Dr. Walvoord once explained.....The "Great Wonder in heaven" is pointing to a definite subject or object.

The WOMAN is Israel and Since that is the case then there is more involved than "Symbolism".

Since Israel is real so then , Yes Satan is an angel and is a REAL entity.

Agree that the number 7 means "Completion". Twelve (12) can be found in 187 places in God's word. Rev. alone has 22 occurrences of the number. The meaning of 12, which is considered a perfect number, is that it symbolizes God's power and authority, as well as serving as a perfect governmental foundation. It can also symbolize completeness or the nation of Israel as a whole.

Satan IMO is exactly what the Bible says he is...."The prince of the pwer of the air" and then so I guess I would then agree that he has authority of the earth before Adam and TODAY.

Yes.....12 tribes of Israel- 12 Apostles- 12 Minor Prophets etc.

Agreed.....the "sea" means he will come up out of the multitude or "sea of people." IMO. Most people understand the "SEA" mean a Gentile while the "LAND" = the Promised Land or a Jew.

The False Prophet then seems to be a Jew.

Daniel 9:26 does not speak of the coming A/C. I think you may be confused here on the Scripture. "MESSIAH" will be cut off!!!

Daniel 9:27 tells us that there will bean Anti Christ coming and HE the A/C will stand in the Temple.

Now I must tell you that you seem to be coming at this from the "Preterist" position and I for one do not accept that theology.

We can talk all day but we will never agree on the Preterist theolgy.

 

[Major]

Hello to you too and thanks for getting back to me. First, if you read my postings I made no claim to being a student of DTS. I confirmed that Hal Lindsey was. But maybe our joviality over both being "country boys" was misleading. I do apologize for that misunderstanding if my wording was obscure.

Next, I do believe it was you who had concerns. It was my apparent audacity to challenge Hal Lindsey. After your defense of brother Hal, I suggested that you take my posting in which I challenged brother Hal, pick any point, and show it to be wrong. I made the suggestion recorded in the posting, which you have just answered, and which to my best knowledge, brother Hal Lindsey did not make, but which is crucial to the doctrine of the Rapture - especially a Pre-Tribulation Rapture for all the Church.

I await your comments on those three, or maybe four scriptures which show the Pre-Tribulation Rapture to be conditional.

Go well and God bless.

My apologies to you and I am sorry about the mistake.

I replied to your post a moment ago and I saw your "Preterist" position and realized that you could not be talking about Mr. Lindey's position.

 

[Major]

You are making two errors here.

1. Daniel never wrote about any such "two witnesses".
2. Revelation does not speak of 1335 days.

You are mixing two very different prophecies together and coming up with a false result.

Correct. It is Daniel who speaks of 1335 days in 12 :11-12.

Revelation is where 2 witnesses are mentioned in 11:3..........
“And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”

 

[Corban]

Dear "Corban"....as Dr. Walvoord once explained.....The "Great Wonder in heaven" is pointing to a definite subject or object.

The WOMAN is Israel and Since that is the case then there is more involved than "Symbolism".

Since Israel is real so then , Yes Satan is an angel and is a REAL entity.

Agree that the number 7 means "Completion". Twelve (12) can be found in 187 places in God's word. Rev. alone has 22 occurrences of the number. The meaning of 12, which is considered a perfect number, is that it symbolizes God's power and authority, as well as serving as a perfect governmental foundation. It can also symbolize completeness or the nation of Israel as a whole.

Satan IMO is exactly what the Bible says he is...."The prince of the pwer of the air" and then so I guess I would then agree that he has authority of the earth before Adam and TODAY.

Yes.....12 tribes of Israel- 12 Apostles- 12 Minor Prophets etc.

Agreed.....the "sea" means he will come up out of the multitude or "sea of people." IMO. Most people understand the "SEA" mean a Gentile while the "LAND" = the Promised Land or a Jew.

The False Prophet then seems to be a Jew.

Daniel 9:26 does not speak of the coming A/C. I think you may be confused here on the Scripture. "MESSIAH" will be cut off!!!

Daniel 9:27 tells us that there will bean Anti Christ coming and HE the A/C will stand in the Temple.

Now I must tell you that you seem to be coming at this from the "Preterist" position and I for one do not accept that theology.

We can talk all day but we will never agree on the Preterist theolgy.

Thanks for your input. The exchange we had was actually on another thread titled;

As the angel of the LORD, Jesus appeared as a man, or spoke, to many in the O.T. Do you believe He has appeared since the Ascension?

My postings that precipitated our discussion in that thread are # 51, # 57 and # 60.

 

[Major]

Thanks for your input. The exchange we had was actually on another thread titled;

As the angel of the LORD, Jesus appeared as a man, or spoke, to many in the O.T. Do you believe He has appeared since the Ascension?

My postings that precipitated our discussion in that thread are # 51, # 57 and # 60.

I thought it was but I could not remember.

You will be my age one day and know what that means!

 

[Corban]

I thought it was but I could not remember.

You will be my age one day and know what that means!

Go well brother. I'm probably not far behind you in years. My next is the famous three-score-and-ten.

 

[ewq1938]

Most people understand the "SEA" mean a Gentile while the "LAND" = the Promised Land or a Jew.

If sea implies gentile then why wouldn't land not imply the same thing? Also, the beast rising from the Sea is a kingdom made up of ten smaller kingdoms/kings spread out within 7 mountains. It's not a man but it is a gentile kingdom. The FP is a man but there is no suggestion of what race or nationality he might be.

 

[Rondonmon]

I appreciate your understanding of the matter. I will comment on a few points, but my understanding, with scriptures is in posting # 7. As in any debate, you'll have to answer the points established there before convincing me of yours above. Even more, your points above I will show to be doubtful.

• Revelation 12 concerns BOTH "signs". Verse 1-2 concern the Woman, and verse 3 the "sign" which is a Dragon. But we know that Satan is an angel, so "Dragon" is symbolic. Thus also the Woman is symbolic.

The Woman is a CODE, the Sign, in Heaven = the Dragon, the reason I say this is all three Beasts are pinpointed as per to where they are from. The Dragon resides in Heaven, the Anti-Christ from the Earth, and the Scarlet Beast from the bottomless pit. We get the same verbiage via the Woman as shown in Gen. 37:9. The Woman is a code, but symbolic also, but Israel doesn't reside in Heaven, Satan does. Notice Rev. 15:1, its a SIGN in Heaven also, where the 7 Angels are readying the 7 Vials.....................Rev. 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

• I understand 7 (seven) to be the number of completion in time. The number 12 (twelve) is the number of completion in eternity.

7 and 10 represent "COMPLETION" the number 12 represents "FULNESS". Thus the 7 eyes and 7 spirits in Revelation simply mean God sees all and is omnipotent. In Rev. 2:10 the 10 days of tribulation that Smyrna must go through represents the complete Church Age. Thus the 10 kings in Daniel 7 and 10 toes in Daniel 2 represent the fractured kingdoms of Europe that can not reunite until the end time, no matter how hard they tried, even vis the Seed of men (Royal Marriage). So, anyone looking for 10 nations, will be down a rabbit hole, the 10 used to represent England, now the 10 doesn't. Its only 26 now, whereas it was 27 nations with England.

• Satan's rule is limited to a period before Adam (Isa.14 and Ezek.28), PLUS six-one-thousand-year periods after the earth is given to man but who conceded it to Satan = 7

Well, he rules over the whole earth from Adam's fall until the 7th Vial of Jesus' return.

• Israel - 12 Tribes - receive the Promised Land for "an everlasting possession". The Church - 12 Apostles - will reign for ever (Rev.22:5)

AND?

• The Beast arises from the sea, we agree. But 2nd Peter 1:20 forbids private interpretation. From were do you get the "Mediterranean? Much more, the "sea" in Parable is the Gentile Nations (Isa.9:1; Ezek.26:3-5). The Beast is a Gentile king, as Daniel 9:26 predicted

Go look on a map, what do all the Kingdoms have in common? Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome all Conquered and Ruled Israel AND the Mediterranean Sea Region. Thus the E.U. President and the E.U. will likewise Conquer Israel, and the whole region, go read Dan. 11:40-43, it tells us that very fact, and ONLY Central and Southern Jordan escapes this, and that is the Petra and Bozrah area where Israel flee unto. The very reason Rome was SO GREAT and mighty is that they are the only Beast to have conquered and ruled every square inch of the Mediterranean Coastline. The Anti-Christ comes out of the fourth Beasts Head because he is going to look just like PAPA on a map. Look at the E.U. now add in all those nations mentioned in Dan. 11:40-43, Nations that the E.U. currently has 7-year Agreements (Covenant means Agreement in Hebrew), they have 7 Year agreements with Lebanon, Israel, Syria, Jordan, Palestine, Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, and Morrocco. Irs called the European Nieghborhood Policy. The GREAT SEA is the Mediterranean Sea.

• The Beast cannot conquer the E. U. to get power. His power comes VOLUNTARILY from 10 kings (Rev.17:12-13)

No one said he Conquers the E.U., he ARISES in the E.U., he's born in Greece (Dan. 8:9), he arises to power via the Fourth Beast AMONGST the 10 (Fractured Europe) and he will have Assyrian blood. Many Turks live in Greece, living in Greece makes you an E.U. Citizen and eligible to be the E.U. President. He Conquers "THE MANY" as seen in Dan. 8:25, in Dan. 9:27, and in Daniel 11:41, which means Israel AND the whole Mediterranean Sea Region.

• The Beast was one of FIVE kings who ruled at John's time, and had died. One was still ruling, and one was to come a short while - making seven Gentile Roman kings. The Beast is the eigth. Again, we must interpret scripture with scripture, not fallen men's thoughts. "Eight" is the number of resurrection because Christ was raised "on the morrow after the Sabbath". So also the Beast, he is of the five Caesars already dead during John's time, and will be resurrected "out of time" as the last Caesar. The Abyss is Hades (Matt.12:40)

The 5 were Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, and Greece. The ONE who was was of course Rome. The ONE TO COME is of course The Anti-Christ. There is no 8th kingdom, there is an 8th king. Apollyon's kingdom however was over the bottomless pit. He was OF THE OTHER SIX..........and he will be of the Anti-Christ when gets released from the pit. Apollyon was the Demn who RESISTED Micheal for 2 days in Dan. chapter 10. The Ceasar thing is just not so brother.

Gotta walk the dog, God Bless brother.

 

[Corban]

The Woman is a CODE, the Sign, in Heaven = the Dragon, the reason I say this is all three Beasts are pinpointed as per to where they are from. The Dragon resides in Heaven, the Anti-Christ from the Earth, and the Scarlet Beast from the bottomless pit. We get the same verbiage via the Woman as shown in Gen. 37:9. The Woman is a code, but symbolic also, but Israel doesn't reside in Heaven, Satan does. Notice Rev. 15:1, its a SIGN in Heaven also, where the 7 Angels are readying the 7 Vials.....................Rev. 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.



7 and 10 represent "COMPLETION" the number 12 represents "FULNESS". Thus the 7 eyes and 7 spirits in Revelation simply mean God sees all and is omnipotent. In Rev. 2:10 the 10 days of tribulation that Smyrna must go through represents the complete Church Age. Thus the 10 kings in Daniel 7 and 10 toes in Daniel 2 represent the fractured kingdoms of Europe that can not reunite until the end time, no matter how hard they tried, even vis the Seed of men (Royal Marriage). So, anyone looking for 10 nations, will be down a rabbit hole, the 10 used to represent England, now the 10 doesn't. Its only 26 now, whereas it was 27 nations with England.


Well, he rules over the whole earth from Adam's fall until the 7th Vial of Jesus' return.


AND?


Go look on a map, what do all the Kingdoms have in common? Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome all Conquered and Ruled Israel AND the Mediterranean Sea Region. Thus the E.U. President and the E.U. will likewise Conquer Israel, and the whole region, go read Dan. 11:40-43, it tells us that very fact, and ONLY Central and Southern Jordan escapes this, and that is the Petra and Bozrah area where Israel flee unto. The very reason Rome was SO GREAT and mighty is that they are the only Beast to have conquered and ruled every square inch of the Mediterranean Coastline. The Anti-Christ comes out of the fourth Beasts Head because he is going to look just like PAPA on a map. Look at the E.U. now add in all those nations mentioned in Dan. 11:40-43, Nations that the E.U. currently has 7-year Agreements (Covenant means Agreement in Hebrew), they have 7 Year agreements with Lebanon, Israel, Syria, Jordan, Palestine, Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, and Morrocco. Irs called the European Nieghborhood Policy. The GREAT SEA is the Mediterranean Sea.


No one said he Conquers the E.U., he ARISES in the E.U., he's born in Greece (Dan. 8:9), he arises to power via the Fourth Beast AMONGST the 10 (Fractured Europe) and he will have Assyrian blood. Many Turks live in Greece, living in Greece makes you an E.U. Citizen and eligible to be the E.U. President. He Conquers "THE MANY" as seen in Dan. 8:25, in Dan. 9:27, and in Daniel 11:41, which means Israel AND the whole Mediterranean Sea Region.



The 5 were Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, and Greece. The ONE who was was of course Rome. The ONE TO COME is of course The Anti-Christ. There is no 8th kingdom, there is an 8th king. Apollyon's kingdom however was over the bottomless pit. He was OF THE OTHER SIX..........and he will be of the Anti-Christ when gets released from the pit. Apollyon was the Demn who RESISTED Micheal for 2 days in Dan. chapter 10. The Ceasar thing is just not so brother.

Gotta walk the dog, God Bless brother.

Thanks for the reply. Our basis for interpretation is rather different, and we have strayed from the topic of the thread. Shall we leave it at that? I have read and noted your opinions.

Go well bro.

 

[AnsweringRightly]

Revelation 12, a structural analysis (kinda like the bones of your body):

[A1] Rev. 12:1-5 = Woman, Child and Dragon​

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[B1] Rev. 12:6 = Woman in Wilderness for 1,260​

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[C1] Rev. 12:7-9 = War between Michael and Satan in Heaven​

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[D1] Rev. 12:10 = Cross, Power of Christ, His Victory​

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[D2] Rev. 12:11 = Lamb, Blood of Christ, Their [overcoming saints] Victory in Him​

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[C2] Rev. 12:12 = Dragon permanently cast down to Earth and wars against Jesus' body​

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[B2] Rev. 12:13-16 = Woman in Wilderness, for a time, and times, and half a time [aka, 3 1/2 times or 1,260]​

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[A2] Rev. 12:17 = Woman, her Seed and Dragon​

Anyone disagree with this as representing the overall structure? If so, please raise your voice and reasoning, and text.

 

[AnsweringRightly]

Can the woman of Revelation 12 be specifically 'Mary' as a certain religion teaches being 'assumed' into Heaven? Some questions to ask:

1. Is the woman still pregnant (with child) in Rev. 12:1-2,5?​

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2. Is the “great red Dragon” also “in heaven” ready to devour the ‘man child’ as soon as He is born in Rev. 12:3-5, and if so, is the devil in Heaven right now with this ‘Mary’ then?​

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3. Does the Bible anywhere say that ‘Mary’, whether dead or alive, was ‘assumed’ bodily into Heaven?​

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4. Is the context of Rev. 12:1-2 in pre-AD (Anno Domini) times?​

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5. Is the context of Rev. 11:15-19 in post BC (Before Christ) times, even at the end of time, during the 7th trumpet (Rev. 11:15), wherein the 7 last plagues are mentioned (Rev. 11:18, ‘thy wrath is come’)?​

 

[AnsweringRightly]

Can we consider 1 verse of Revelation 12 at a time? Looking at the individual parts and discussing those parts, instead of jumping all over the place?

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

•“a great wonder” – Truly God’s miracles are a sign of His glorious and beautiful character of love; see Deut. 3:24, 4:34, 6:22, 7:19, 26:8, 29:3; Jos. 24:17; Neh. 9:17; Job. 9:10; Psa. 136:4; Jer. 32:21; Dan. 4:3; Mat. 9:8, 15:31; Mar. 2:12; Luk. 5:26, 7:16, 13:13, 17:15, 23:47; Jhn. 6:2, 11:4, 13:31-32; Act. 2:19, 3:11-13, 4:21, 6:8, 11:18; Gal. 1:24; 2 Thes. 1:12; 1 Pet. 4:14, etc.​

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•“in heaven” – Truly a miracle of God that any person of ‘mankind’ is ‘in heaven’ at all because the wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23), but through the grace, love and promise of God in Christ Jesus (Gen. 3:15,21), mankind was to be redeemed, and though it was given for all (Jhn. 3:16), only a remnant who believed, grasping the promise by living faith and not letting go, appropriating it to themselves, would be saved; see Mat. 6:21; Luk. 12:34; Phi. 3:20; Col. 3:1-3; Heb. 12:23, and (‘in heaven’, Canaan, the promised land, a symbol of the real promised land, Heavenly Canaan); see 1 Cor. 10:6,11; Gen. 17:8; Exo. 20:12; 1 Chr. 16:18; Psa. 105:11, etc.)​

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•“a woman” (faithful) – God’s people ((OT) Israel and/or later as (NT) Christians), flock, church, a body, bone of the man’s (Adam; Gen. 2:23; 1 Cor. 15:44-46) bone and flesh of His flesh, and the city (Mat. 12:10-11) in which they reside (New Jerusalem); see Jer. 6:2; Isa. 54:5, 61:10, 62:5 ; Act. 7:38; 1 Cor. 6:17; 2 Cor. 11:2; Gal. 4:26; Eph. 5:23-32; Rev. 19:7, 21:2-3,9; see also Jesus as the “bridegroom” – Mat. 9:15, 25:1,5-6,10; Mar. 2:19-20; Luk. 5:34-35; Jhn. 2:9, 3:29; Rev. 18:23; Jer. 7:34, 16:9, 25:10, 33:11; Joe. 2:16 and Song of Solomon (entire); see also (unfaithful) Jer. 3:14,20; Hos. 1:2, 2:2, etc.​

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•“clothed with” (not naked (a symbol of shame/sin; Gen 3:7-11; Isa. 47:3; Eze. 16:8; Hos. 2:9; Nah. 3:5; Rev. 3:18, for we are warned not to uncover our ‘Mother’s” (Gal. 4:26) nakedness in Lev. 18)) – The character [righteous or unrighteous, rich or poor, depending upon context, etc, and color also affects the character, like White is Purity/Righteousness, Blue is Law/Commandments, Red is Sin/Sacrifice; Purple is Royalty, Lambskin is Christ's Character or Righteousness, Goatskin is the symbol for sin, etc], see Gen. 3:7,21, 35:2; Exo. 28:2,4; Ecc. 9:8; Isa. 52:1, 59:6,17, 61:3,10, 63:2-3, 64:6; Eze. 16:16; Joe. 2:13; Zec. 3:3-5; Gal. 3:27; Tit. 2:10; Rev. 3:4,17, 16:15 [compare to the Garden of Gethsemane, when the disciples forsook Jesus, Mar. 14:51-52], 19:14​

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•“the sun” – The Great Light in the 2nd Heaven, the day star, the morning star, which gives light, warmth, being glorious, and represents God, even Jesus Christ, the Everlasting Gospel and the New Testament/Covenant; see Gen. 1:15-19; Num. 24:17; Psa. 72:17, 84:11, 89:36; Ecc. 11:7; Son. 6:10; Isa. 2:5, 5:20, 8:20, 30:6, 60:1,3,19-20; Jer. 31:35; Mic. 3:6; Mal. 4:2; Mat. 4:16, 13:43, 17:2; Luk. 1:79; Jhn. 1:4-9, 3:21, 8:12, 9:5, 12:35-36,46; Act. 9:3; 2 Cor. 4:4-6; Eph. 5:13-14; 2 Pet. 1:19; 1 Jhn. 2:8; Rev. 1:16, 2:28, 10:1, 21:11,23, 22:5,16.​

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•“the moon” – The lesser light, ruling the night, being for “signs”, “seasons”, which reflects the light of the Sun, reflecting the glory of God (like unto the Sea of Glass, Rev. 4:6, 15:2), and is also representative of the Old Testament, along with the Shadows/Types, being a faithful witness, likened unto a mother of Israel, and is ‘a rock’; see Gen. 1:15-19, 37:9; Exo. 33:21; Deut. 33:14; Job. 31:26; Psa. 81:3, 89:37, 121:6; Son. 6:10; Isa. 8:18, 30:26, 60:19; Eze. 46:4; Luk. 6:48, 24:27; Act. 2:43, 5:12, 8:13, 14:3; Rom. 15:19; 1 Cor. 10:11; 2 Cor. 12:12; Col. 2:16-17; Heb. 2:4​

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•“under her feet” – The way in which a person walks, either in the light or in darkness, in the truth or in error, walking with God or away from God, walking in His ways or the ways of another, and this “woman” is seen standing upon the firm “moon”, the very word of God, even the ‘rock’ Christ Jesus, the “faithful witness”, the foundation of the Old Testament which points forward using symbols, shadows and types unto Christ Jesus the reality; see Gen. 5:22,24, 6:9, 17:1; Exo. 16:14, 18:20, 32:8; Lev. 18:3-4, 20:23, 26:3,21; Deut. 5:33, 8:6,19, 10:12, 11:22,28, 13:4-5, 19:9; 2 Sam. 22:37; 1 Ki. 8:25, 15:3, 16:26; 2 Chr. 6:16; Job. 31:7; Psa. 18:36, 73:2, 86:11, 115:7, 119:3,45; Pro. 21:16; Luk. 6:48; Jhn. 8:12, 11:9-10, 12:35; Act. 14:16, 21:21; 1 Cor. 3:11; 2 Tim. 2:19.​

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•“upon her head” – Leadership or Rulership, Authority and also in Subjection, as Christ Jesus is “head” of the “body” the Church, and the Father is the Head of Christ or as a symbol of reward, as in favour (Gen. 48:17; Job. 29:3; Psa. 133:2) or disfavour (Gen. 40:17; 2 Sam. 1:16; 1 Ki. 2:33,37, 8:32; 2 Chr. 6:23; Neh. 4:4; Est. 9:25; Psa. 7:16; Jer. 2:37, 23:19, 30:23; Eze. 9:10, 16:43, 33:4; Joe. 3:4,7; Amo. 8:10; Oba. 1:15) from God; see Exo. 29:26; 1 Chr. 29:11; Est. 2:17, 6:8; Pro. 10:6, 11:26; Isa. 51:11, 59:17; Eze. 16:12; Zec. 3:5; Mat. 27:29; 1 Cor. 11:3; Eph. 4:15, 5:23; Col. 1:18, 2:10; Rev. 14:14, 19:12.​

​

•“a crown” – Rulership, leadership, authority, dominion, kings, emperors, queens, heads of state, exalted, royalty, victorious, knowledge of wisdom; see Lev. 21:22; Est. 2:17; Job. 19:19; Isa. 28:5, 62:3; Psa. 8:5; Pro. 4:9, 12:4, 14:18; Son. 3:11; Lam. 5:16; Eze. 21:26; Mat. 27:29; 2 Tim. 2:5; Heb. 2:9.​

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•“of 12” – Service, Victory over self (Israel; OT – 12 patriarchs & NT – 12 disciples/apostles; prince or overcomer with God) and always being about the Father’s business, rulership (Est. 9:1; as the 12 hours in the day/night; Jhn. 11:9), purification (Est. 2:12), and 6 + 6 were the two stacks of the shewbread, a place for the Father and Son (Lev. 24:5-6); see: Gen. 14:4, 42:13; 1 Ki. 4:7, 18:31; 1 Chr. 25:6,9-31; 2 Chr. 34:3; Neh. 5:14; Eze. 47:12; Mat. 10:5-10; Mar. 3:14-15, 9:35; Luk. 2:42,49, 9:1-2; Jhn. 18:36; Act. 26:7; Jam. 1:1; Rev. 7:3,4-8, 22:2.​

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•“stars” – (12 stars, are a united constellation, a unifed unit) the re-created peoples (multitudes) of God, also Angels, messengers as shining lights to the world which shone in the night, exalted in the heavens; for signs; see Gen. 1:16, 15:5, 22:17, 26:4, 37:9; Exo. 32:13; Deut. 1:10, 10:22, 28:62; Judg. 5:20; 1 Chr. 27:23; Neh. 4:21, 9:23; Job. 3:9, 9:9, 22:12, 38:7,31; Psa. 8:3, 136:9, 147:4, 148:3; Isa. 13:10, 14:13; Jer. 31:35; Dan. 10:8, 12:3; Joe. 2:10, 3:15; Amo. 5:8,26; Oba. 1:4; Mat. 2:2,7,9-10; Luk. 21:25; Jhn. 1:8, 5:35; Act. 7:43; 1 Cor. 15:41; Heb. 11:12; Jud. 1:13; Rev. 1:16,20, 2:1, 3:1, 8:10,12, 9:1, 12:4,7,8,9.​

Any objections to these references, or meanings? If so, please be specific, at which point the objection is made, and why, and with what text you present that has a clearer understanding. Commentaries, videos, websites, etc are not accepted. This is a bible study. Produce the text on your own and let us go through them together.

 

[Rondonmon]

Thanks for the reply. Our basis for interpretation is rather different, and we have strayed from the topic of the thread. Shall we leave it at that? I have read and noted your opinions.

Go well bro.

Not really, as per having strayed. I just showed how God uses "NUMBERS" to code with, in Rev. 12 and throughout the bible.

God Bless

 

[Corban]

Not really, as per having strayed. I just showed how God uses "NUMBERS" to code with, in Rev. 12 and throughout the bible.

God Bless

No doubt. The heptadic structure of scripture is before our eyes, and much is revealed by numbers. No word or figure in scripture is wasted. That exquisite Mind Who wrote the Bible was so economical with His Words, we had better accord them our fullest attention right down to the last jot and tittle.

 

[Rondonmon]

•“a great wonder” – Truly God’s miracles are a sign of His glorious and beautiful character of love;

As seen in —Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)

1) a sign, mark, token
1a) that by which a person or a thing is distinguished from
others and is known

The Wonder is pointing out where Satan the Dragon resides, in Heaven. Satan is designated as the Dragon Beast here.

“in heaven” – Truly a miracle of God that any person of ‘mankind’ is ‘in heaven’ at all because the wages of sin is death

Same as above.

“a woman” (faithful) – God’s people ((OT) Israel and/or later as (NT) Christians), flock, church, a body, bone of the man’s

This is always Israel, it is never the Church in this specific mention.

•“clothed with” ....... “the sun” ........ “the moon”

This is only referencing the Genesis 37:9 scripture that points out the Woman is code for Israel, as in the Sun stands-in Jacob and the Moon is a stand-in for Rachel & Leah. The 12 Stars = the 12 tribes of Israel.

Its really that simple.

 

[Major]

If sea implies gentile then why wouldn't land not imply the same thing? Also, the beast rising from the Sea is a kingdom made up of ten smaller kingdoms/kings spread out within 7 mountains. It's not a man but it is a gentile kingdom. The FP is a man but there is no suggestion of what race or nationality he might be.

It has been an accepted teaching for may years that the the Jews would only allow a JEW to speak from their temple.

 

[Corban]

Can we consider 1 verse of Revelation 12 at a time? Looking at the individual parts and discussing those parts, instead of jumping all over the place?

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

...​

Any objections to these references, or meanings? If so, please be specific, at which point the objection is made, and why, and with what text you present that has a clearer understanding. Commentaries, videos, websites, etc are not accepted. This is a bible study. Produce the text on your own and let us go through them together.

With pleasure. One verse - Revelation 12:1

"And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars"

"And". The article is cumulative, copulative and sequential. It joins what went before. But herein lies a difficulty. The word "and" does not fit sequentially with Chapter 11. It fits Chapter 4:1. It is the continuation of a long list of "ands" starting with Revelation 4:1, "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." The time frame is after Christ has found five of seven Churches apostate.

"There appeared". This means that the sign was hidden in the past. Whatever the sign and the Woman stand for, they are a mystery until it is time to displace Satan from heaven.

"A Great Wonder". The Greek word for "wonder" is translated elsewhere as "sign". It covers a broad spectrum. In John Chapter 2, changing water into wine was a "sign" - the same Greek word. Since John 20:30-31 says that these "signs" are so that we believe and have life, this Woman is one thing to show another. Our Lord changing water to wine was the "sign", but it mean going from outside waters of purification to inward LIFE. And the "sign" is GREAT. What is "great" in the Bible. Why, another WOMAN - New Jerusalem: "And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God" (Revelation 21:10)

"In Heaven". The heavens are connected to the earth by RULE. Heaven is God's THRONE - not God's House, as some say. John Baptist and our Lord Jesus offer the "Kingdom (out) OF Heaven" to Israel first. The Woman is heavenly in nature. She brings heavenly rule to earth. Her Man-Child will RULE. She has a "crown". A crown is for ruling. It has 12 "stars" - heavenly rule. Abraham, who was promised the "Gates of his enemies" will have "seed as the stars of heaven". In resurrection the Church has "celestial glory". Satan, who was first governor of earth is a "star". Our Lord Jesus, son of KING David is "the bright and morning Star".

"A Woman". This Woman is a MOTHER. She has three seeds. All three are connected to God. Galatians 4:26 says that the Mother of US all is "Jerusalem above". Galatians 4 is speaking of both Israelite and Believer. Revelation 12 has "those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ (believer)" AND "those who keep the commandments of God (Jewish Remnant)". New Jerusalem has "Walls" based on the 12 Apostles (believers) and "Gates" (Israel). New Jerusalem is then DOUBLY a Woman. She is "Mother of us ALL" (Believer and Israelite) AND she is the Bride of Christ. This is the second time in the sentence that the Woman is inferred to be New Jerusalem.

"Clothed with the sun". A garment in Parable is one's Works (Rev.19:8). And our Lord is the "Sun of righteousness" (Mal.4:2). The clothes of the Woman are Christ's Righteousness. New Jerusalem "has the glory of God" - not the glory of men. Christ establishes righteousness before the Father, and the Father IMPUTES IT to the Church. In Josephs dream in Genesis 37 the "sun" is Jacob, which means "crook" or "supplanter", and he bows to a star. But here, the Woman's expression is Christ and His established righteousness UNDER LAW and ABOVE LAW. Jesus kept the Law in total (without fault), and He goes over and above Law in OBEDIENCE to the Father.

"The Moon under her feet". The sun was the greater light to rule the Day, while the moon was the lesser light to rule the night. The night is when our Lord Jesus is NOT present (Jn.9:4). From Adam to Abraham and Jacob the Patriarchs were God's light and testimony on an earth ruled by darkness. From Moses to Jeremiah Israel was God's testimony and light in a dark world. From Pentecost to the subjugation of the saints by the Beast in Revelation 13:7, the Church is God's light and testimony in a dark world. God always maintained His testimony on earth by faithful men. But its glory is reflected. It is a moon which must reflect the light of the Sun. But the feet of the woman speak of RULE. Earth is God's FOOTSTOOL, and God has joined Himself to men to RULE. But do we rule men in this age. No! We war against "the powers of darkness" (Luke 22:53, Acts 26:18, Ephesians 6:12 and Colossians 1:13). "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

"Upon her Head a crown of 12 stars". Abraham is promised "seed as the sand of the sea shore" AND "seed as the stars of heaven" (Heb.11:12). His seed will "possess the Gates of his enemies". "Gates" in Parable are where the Elders of the city gathered to rule and judge. God raises up Israel first and they live alongside, but not among, the Nations who are typified by the "sea" (Ezek.26:3-5). But when Christ comes, He promises not only the Kingdom of Israel, but the Kingdom of the HEAVENS. A new birth is needed - one from above (Jn.3:3-5 - lit. Gk.). The calling "heavenly" (Heb.3:1). Israel reject the call to be "stars", and so God goes to the Gentiles with His "heavenly calling" and citizenship. The Church is born and based upon 12 Apostles. And New Jerusalem, which is a Woman, will "reign with Christ forever and ever (Rev.22:5).

God's plan with man on earth is to have A Woman.

1. It is not good that a Man be alone - and Jesus is the Chiefest of men.
2. This Woman is to display God, so New Jerusalem, the chiefest of Women "has the glory of God"
3. This Woman is to be a Mother and bring forth a Man-Child to rule the Nations - the Overcomers of the Church
4. This Woman is to be a Mother and bring forth an Israeli Remnant for the restoration of Israel
5. This Woman is to be a "help meet" to Jesus. This means "a companion up to the standard of" Jesus, typified by Eve

After the revelation of Jesus Christ the innocent giving His Life for the Woman, this Woman is the grandest revelation of the Bible. In Galatians 4 this Woman, Jerusalem Above, is incomplete. She is still being built. In Revelation 12 she is complete in the TWO REMNANTS. In Revelation 21 she is complete in all - New Jerusalem, the consummation of God's plan on earth with men.

She embodies all God's plan. She gives Christ joy, compaionship and satisfies Him.