The Saving results of the Death of Christ !
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Whom the Lord loves, he chastens. God does not love all mankind, Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated, Psalms 73:5 They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they "plagued= divinely punished" like other men.
John has written this letter to the brethren of one of the churches telling them that Jesus is the propitiation (atonement) for them, not only for them but also for the whole world of the elect.He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 'ours' -- this is easy to identify; the audience of John's letter. those who believe, this is stated explicitly in 5:13
'but also for the whole world' -- it's clear intellectual dishonesty to argue that this can be referring to the same group
now define 'propitiation'
Christ died for the atonement of those that his Father gave him, which was the elect people that he choose before the foundation of the world.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
there is only one gospel, it’s not like there are 5 different ways to fix a car or to enter a building, there is one way
if we chose the wrong way, as paul said in galations 3, then we will left on the outside looking in and not be saved.
this debate here between the calvin view and the rest of us is not two ways, it is more like why or how did we come to faith
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Abraham only had his sins remitted. They were not redeemed ( taken away ) until the cross .Otherwise it was not necessary for Jesus to die .
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
People are condemned because of lack of faith. How many times does this need shown
he who believes is not condemned, he who does not believe is condemned already because they have not believed
they are not condemned for sin, as Jesus said, all manner of sin will be forgiven men.
at the great white throne judgment, the law is not brought out and people judged for sin, they are judged because they did not believe
no one will be condemned by the law. Like the high priest on the day of atonement made reparation for all of Israel, including the unbelievers, Jesus made reparations for all mankind
the deciding factor on who actually recieves this salvation is based again on John 1, 3 and so many other passages, on those who believe, just like abraham believed and he was justified based on his faith
Yes if they do not get glorified they go to hell .Faith is the only access to the grace .Rom 5.2
as i said, i consider it intellectual dishonesty to say 'not only us but also them' means 'not only us but also us'
it didn't fit in the neat little box i had built in my head either, but the little box in my little head isn't what determines what's true.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
So Jesus did not know?
abraham Was justified by faith, how could he be justified apart from redemption?
you all want to put God in our time frame,
stop being narrow minded and give God credit for who he is
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
He was justified by faith . But if Jesus did not redeem his sin on the cross then he would have to go to hell . Sin had to be taken away. Not just covered .
Thankfully Jesus took care of that ,so no . But if Jesus never came ,then no salvation for anyone .No one is redeemed apart from the blood of Christ. Are you saying Abraham could be redeemed / glorified apart from Jesus work on the cross ?
well it seems to me the only thing making those 'polar opposites' is the interjection of time into the discussion. whenever we're talking about theology we're talking about things having to do with One who is outside of time, the Creator of time -- time is a creation. so it may not always be fruitful to interject time into the discussion, tho it's our natural inclination as creatures whose experience is constrained in time, to do so.
God 'speaks of things which are not as though they are' and creates by His the word of His mouth. what if we're only muddying the waters by trying to fit His doings into a timeline? i mean, if the square box doesn't fit in the round hole, cramming it in there really isn't much of a solution. that could be the situation on this topic; the two 'sides' are speaking from human perspective ((what else can we do?)), rather than God's -- which is unsearchable
No Abraham was forgiven awaiting redemption. But until redemption he was not redeemed by the blood yet .
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
I looked up the first 4 verses. Nothing in them suggest god overruled anyones will
i a, not going to waste my time looking at the rest, if you can’t get them right, I doubt you got the rest right either
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
So when God said he removed our sins as far as the east is from the rest in the OT
he did not mean it?
wow man, like wow
again, your hurting our argument,
Why did they have to sacrifice year after year then ? Did they not sin after their other sins were taken care of ? Why did David pray to not have the Holy Spirit taken from him ect ? There was no sacrifice for his type of sins ?