The Apostasy

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,923
2,118
113
#21
^ This ^ is exactly what these say:

" 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?"



["And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (take note of "the kingdom OF THE heavenS" context... i.e. the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, and the immediately preceding time-slot)]
 
Sep 3, 2016
6,344
530
113
#22
is a Judiazer different from an Islamist ? Or Buddhist ? Are they different from any non believer of the gospel ? Or does the world offer a thousand answers for
Mankind , but God has offered only one

“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

like Israel before us the world has a thousand religions , secular paths to enligjtemnent but it adds up to worship of false gods and demons in the world

a micro cosm of Our world

“And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days: They saw not one another, neither rose any from his place for three days: but all the children of Israel had light in their dwellings.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭10:22-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Christians have light in a dark world

“Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

others refuse the light and walk in darkness
Faith in the "Lamb of God, i.e., the Cross, i.e., the Blood of Jesus" is the only narrow way. Matthew 7:14
If few enter the narrow way, this just means everyone else has been eating the "bread of deceit!" Proverbs 20:17
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
#23
I was hoping to get some opinions on what the truth is that a billion plus individuals will refuse to love is, and what the lie is that they will instead choose over the truth?
We are seeing two things happening in the world currently: (1) within Christendom Gospel truth and Bible truth are being systematically rejected for Satanic lies, and (2) within the unbelieving world, lies have become the currency of governments, courts, and the media. As we know from Scripture, Satan is a liar and THE FATHER OF LIES. And he has spawned a multitude of liars.

In other words there is massive DECEPTION happening both within and outside the churches today. You just have to take careful note of the nonsense being spouted by Pope Francis -- the supposed spiritual leader of about 1.5 BILLION Catholics -- to see what I am talking about.

And you simply have to take note of the daily barrage of lies being put out by the TV networks, the newspapers, and the Internet liberal media to con people into thinking falsely about what is happening. If people loved the truth they would reject all the lies, but in reality only a small minority is standing against the lies.

Take the example of this bogus COVID vaccine from Pfizer. Has the medical profession come out strongly against this vaccine and informed the public about its dangers? No. But that was their moral, ethical, and legal responsibility. On the contrary, they are encouraging people to endanger themselves. No one knows anything about the short-term or long-term harm which mRNA vaccines may cause to human beings, or to their infants, or to their children.

When you add all this up, the current situation is ripe for the advent of the Antichrist. And that is what 2 Thessalonians 2 is all about.
 
Sep 3, 2016
6,344
530
113
#24
The are more than a remnant of bloodline Jews who are saved. The 7,000 remnant men Jews you are referring to have not bowed their knees to Baal. Meaning they have not had money/mammon or things/idols as a prior love, and so did not do wrong for the love of those things. There will still be repentant others who will have previously bowed their knees to Baal.
I do not, however, see the connection you are trying to make with the topic about the lie that so many around the world, including one billion plus current members of the church are going to choose, while rejecting the truth.
The "remnant that will be saved includes Jews and Gentiles. Matthew 7:14, Romans 11
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,923
2,118
113
#25
^ This ^ is exactly what these say:

" 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?"
["And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (take note of "the kingdom OF THE heavenS" context... i.e. the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, and the immediately preceding time-slot)]
I had made a post in the past about that phrase ^ :


[quoting old post]

[parallel the phrasing in Matt7:23]

Job 31:3
Is not destruction to the wicked? and a strange punishment to the workers of iniquity?

Job 34:8
Which goeth in company with the workers of iniquity, and walketh with wicked men.

Job 34:22
There is no darkness, nor shadow of death, where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves.

Psa 5:5
The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Psa 6:8
Depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity; for the LORD hath heard the voice of my weeping.

Psa 14:4
*Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.

Psa 28:3
Draw me not away with the wicked, and with the workers of iniquity, which speak peace to their neighbours, but mischief is in their hearts.

Psa 36:12
There are the workers of iniquity fallen: they are cast down, and shall not be able to rise.

Psa 37:1
[A Psalm of David.] Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.

Psa 53:4
*Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread: they have not called upon God.

Psa 59:2
Deliver me from the workers of iniquity, and save me from bloody men.

Psa 64:2
Hide me from the secret counsel of the wicked; from the insurrection of the workers of iniquity:

Psa 92:7
When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:

Psa 92:9
For, lo, thine enemies, O LORD, for, lo, thine enemies shall perish; all the workers of iniquity shall be scattered.

Psa 94:4
How long shall they utter and speak hard things? and all the workers of iniquity boast themselves?

Psa 94:16
Who will rise up for me against the evildoers? or who will stand up for me against the workers of iniquity?

Psa 125:5
*As for such as turn aside unto their crooked ways, the LORD shall lead them forth with the workers of iniquity: but peace shall be upon Israel.

Psa 141:9
Keep me from the snares which they have laid for me, and the gins of the workers of iniquity.

Pro 10:29
The way of the LORD is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.

Pro 21:15
It is joy to the just to do judgment: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.

Luk 13:27
But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.


[see also Matt7:23 NLT 1996, which says, "7:23 - But I will reply, 'I never knew you. Go away; the things you did were unauthorized. F51 ' "]


[end quoting old post]



[*notice this]
____________

Romans 4 -

7 Blessed are those whose lawless deeds [/iniquities - kjv] are forgiven,

and whose sins are covered;

8 blessed is the man against whom

the Lord will never reckon sin.”b
 

luigi

Junior Member
Dec 6, 2015
1,222
216
63
#26
Here's my understanding of that text:

--Paul is (in 2 chpts) giving the TWO DISTINCT [/OPPOSITE] responses [/beliefs] people will come to embrace following "our gathering together UNTO HIM"/our "Rapture [IN THE AIR]"/"THE Departure" (he shows this at the FRONT and BACK bookends to this [overall] CONTEXT)

a) "And because of this, God will send to them a working of delusion, for them to believe what is false / the lie / the pseudei" (2Th2:10-12... same ppl that 1Th5:2-3 says "[and THEY] shall NOT ESCAPE [FLEE OUT OF - G1628]")--this is speaking of IN "the DAY OF THE LORD" TIME-PERIOD (when "the man of sin" will have ARRIVED to do all he is prophesied to do in those 7-yrs [the "IN THE NIGHT" ASPECT OF the entire long "DOTL" time-period])

[and on the other end of the bookended CONTEXT...(the CONTRAST [beliefs ppl will come to, then])... referring to the SAME TIME PERIOD]

b) "among all those having believed because 'the testimony of us to you' was believed IN THAT DAY" (not "in this present age [singular], but "in THAT day"--Wherever the phrases "the DOTL" and "IN THAT DAY" are used in the SAME CONTEXTS, they are always speaking of the SAME TIME-PERIOD!! [so BOTH of these refer to that FUTURE TIME-PERIOD])



... when viewed in this light, one can then proceed to grasp JUST "WHAT" IS "the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI" (of that [future] time-period)... which I won't go into in this post... but it seems rather clear to me...



[this also pertains to my study I posted in the past, on Joseph and his brothers, where he tells them: "3 But Judah replied, The man solemnly warned us, You will not see my face again unless your brother is with you. "]
^ This ^ is exactly what these say:

" 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?"



["And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (take note of "the kingdom OF THE heavenS" context... i.e. the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, and the immediately preceding time-slot)]
Yes they will be workers of iniquity, meaning they did not believe in Christ's faith, but that still does not represent the lie so many will choose over the truth. The lie has to do with the beast's ascension that the whole world who are not written in the lambs book of life will be googoo gaga over.
 

luigi

Junior Member
Dec 6, 2015
1,222
216
63
#27
The "remnant that will be saved includes Jews and Gentiles. Matthew 7:14, Romans 11
There will also be a remnant of believers who come through the great tribulation. Going off topic again here.
 
Jun 11, 2020
1,370
424
83
73
#28
With a great falling away set to occur when the man of sin comes around (2 Thessalonians 2), I was hoping to get some opinions on what the truth is that a billion plus individuals will refuse to love is, and what the lie is that they will instead choose over the truth?

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
The first thing in expounding a scripture is to establish the reason for the book it is in. 1st Thessalonians was written because Paul had taught the Rapture in Thessaloniki, but because he was forced to flee after only three weeks, he did not teach it comprehensively. Because Paul taught that every saint must expect the Second Coming of the Lord at any time, the saints were dismayed when some of the saints died and no Rapture had occurred. Paul writes to correct this and show that the dead saints will suffer no disadvantage to the living saints at the moment of rapture.

2nd Thessalonians is written because the hefty persecution (1:4-5) caused some to teach that the Great Tribulation was upon them and they had missed the Rapture. Paul writes to correct this. Chapter 2 starts with the subject of rapture - (i) "the coming of the Lord" and "our being gathered to Him".

Note that the word for "coming" in verse 1 is "parousia" in the Greek, which strictly means "(His) PRESENCE". It is not His "arrival" on Mount of Olives, but His PRESENCE in the clouds.

In verse 2 we have a special term. All through the Old and New Testament, the "DAY of the LORD" is taught to be a day of vengeance and wrath upon the earth. But here we have the "DAY of Christ". If we study the way the Holy Spirit uses this term in other scriptures, we learn that it means the "day that we, the Church, are caught away to meet the Lord and be judged by Him" (see 1st Cor.1:8, 5:5, 2nd Cor.1:14, Phil.1:6). This confirms verse 1 and our gathering to Him for the Bema (Rom.14:10, 2nd Cor.5:10).

In verse 3 Paul says that this "day" of being Raptured to face judgment as the Church cannot come until some events have occurred. They are (i) an apostasy, (ii) the Beast must be revealed, and, and (iii) a "Withholder" must be removed.

Apostasy.
The word "apostasy" means to fall from an elevated position to a low position, or to fall away from a position of truth to a lie. Implied is that that which becomes apostate once held a high position and will, in future, tumble to a low position. On examining the population of the earth, we find three distinct Peoples. (i) The Nations, or the Gentiles, (ii) The Nation of Israel, and (iii) The New Man or the Church. The Nations are the enemies of God and at best, are totally fallen, depraved and sinful. There is no high position to loose. The Nation of Israel is largely dispersed throughout the Nations as Chastisement for breaking the Law, and those who retur to the Land after it was declared a Nation again in 1948, are indifferent to the Law and hate and reject Jesus Christ. They are about to embrace the Beast, and are thus at an all-time low place in God's estimation. The Church is is the only entity that can fall away. And scripture agrees. Already in Acts there was trouble in the Church, the letters are written because of problems, and the last communication regarding the Churches in Revelation 2 and 3 show five apostate Churches of seven, with our Lord no longer calling the Church but only individual OVERCOMERS. The APOSTASY is in the Church.

The Revealing of the man of sin.
By studying Daniel Chapter 9, we can see two distinct points in the career of the Beast. He (i) obtains a stature and position to enable him to negotiate what no other man has been able to do up to now - to enable Israel to have the daily oblation. This, by default, means that a Temple must be standing, for it is there that Moses commands the oblation, and (ii) three and one half years later he will break this pact, stop the oblation, and command universal worship towards himself. But these two decisive points in his career are only dome when he is in power. His REVEALING is another thing altogether. Revealing somebody means that they were hidden, and are now made manifest. Since the Beast comes out of the Abyss, his REVEALING is one of two possible occasions. (i) When he appears out of the Abyss, or (ii) when he is presented by the ten kings who give their power to him. Thus, the REVEALING of the Beast is sometime BEFORE he makes the pact with Israel in Daniel 9:27. This EVENT will therefore be MORE THAN SEVEN YEARS before Armageddon, and MORE THAN three and one half years before the Abomination of Desolation.

The Withholder.
There is much dispute among Bible scholars as to who this might be. By Paul's words in verse 5 and 6, he had obviously told the Thessalonian saints who this was. But to us, the "WITHHOLDER" is not named. Can we discover who he/it is? We have some evidence. The grammar must first be examined. It poses no problems. Something WITHHOLDS (i) lawlessness overtaking the whole world, (ii) the Beast being manifested. Options are few. Could it be Christ? No. He was removed 2,000 years ago. Could it be the Holy Spirit? No. The Holy Spirit is evidently present throughout the Great Tribulation as is shown by the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11. Could it be the Church? No. Because (a) it is apostate, (b) it is not removed and passes through the Great Tribulation (Rev.7), (c) it is not removed and is Overcome by the Beast (Rev.13:7). But there is One ENTITY that has all the qualifications. The OVERCOMERS OF THE CHURCH!

Our Lord Jesus said that we are salt, and if we keep our flavor, we prevent corruption. An apostate Church has no flavor left, but there are "THEM" (plural) who have the power "to cast down the Accuser" and "THEY (plural) OVERCAME HIM" so that the Accuser is forced out of heaven (Revelation 12:10-11). The Man-Child (plural) is defined by the fact that he will rule the nations with a rod of iron, and besides our Lord Jesus Christ, the only people who will rule the nations with a rod of iron IS OVERCOMERS OF THE APOSTATE CHURCH. Revelation 2:26-27 says;

26 "And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father."


To the Church is given, NOT to fight against flesh and blood, but against Principalities in high places (Eph.6:12). And the weapons are spiritual, not carnal. The Man-Child does not overcome the Beast. He overcomes HIM who gives the Beast his power - the Adversary - the Devil (Rev.13:2-4). And he OVERCOMES, "... by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death" (Rev.12:11). Not only do the Overcomers overcome the apostasy in the Churches, not only do the Overcomers retain their flavor as salt to prevent corruption, not only do the Overcomers Overcome the Accuser - the Devil, but their presence in heaven after Rapture means that the Devil is DISPLACED from heaven.

Who is more qualified, other than our Lord Jesus Christ, to be the WITHHOLDER than the OVERCOMERS of the apostate Church?
 

luigi

Junior Member
Dec 6, 2015
1,222
216
63
#29
Faith in the "Lamb of God, i.e., the Cross, i.e., the Blood of Jesus" is the only narrow way. Matthew 7:14
If few enter the narrow way, this just means everyone else has been eating the "bread of deceit!" Proverbs 20:17
Yes, faith in what Christ believes in and taught, to love your neighbor, and to love truth, justice, equity, and all spiritual virtues, the apostate will abandon in exchange for a utopia of carnal pleasures. So what is the lie that brings this about when the beast ascends from the bottomless pit (aka the sea)? Interpret the metaphors meaning in Revelation 8 causing destruction, and you will be able to figure out what the bottomless pit, aka the sea is, which is the lie people will choose so that they may indulge in carnal pleasures.
 

luigi

Junior Member
Dec 6, 2015
1,222
216
63
#30
We are seeing two things happening in the world currently: (1) within Christendom Gospel truth and Bible truth are being systematically rejected for Satanic lies, and (2) within the unbelieving world, lies have become the currency of governments, courts, and the media. As we know from Scripture, Satan is a liar and THE FATHER OF LIES. And he has spawned a multitude of liars.

In other words there is massive DECEPTION happening both within and outside the churches today. You just have to take careful note of the nonsense being spouted by Pope Francis -- the supposed spiritual leader of about 1.5 BILLION Catholics -- to see what I am talking about.

And you simply have to take note of the daily barrage of lies being put out by the TV networks, the newspapers, and the Internet liberal media to con people into thinking falsely about what is happening. If people loved the truth they would reject all the lies, but in reality only a small minority is standing against the lies.

Take the example of this bogus COVID vaccine from Pfizer. Has the medical profession come out strongly against this vaccine and informed the public about its dangers? No. But that was their moral, ethical, and legal responsibility. On the contrary, they are encouraging people to endanger themselves. No one knows anything about the short-term or long-term harm which mRNA vaccines may cause to human beings, or to their infants, or to their children.

When you add all this up, the current situation is ripe for the advent of the Antichrist. And that is what 2 Thessalonians 2 is all about.
Many here come up with numerous contradicting theories as to what nearly everything in scriptures represent. This is why the Lord provides us with numerous cross referencing related data, so that we may more accurately assess what something truly represents.
We know the man of sin is represented by numerous aliases, and that he is in allegiance with the beast. As such, we can then find correlating data in scriptures to get a better picture on what the lie is that people will choose. It's like no one here wants to follow the correlating data.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,923
2,118
113
#31
In verse 2 we have a special term. All through the Old and New Testament, the "DAY of the LORD" is taught to be a day of vengeance and wrath upon the earth. But here we have the "DAY of Christ". If we study the way the Holy Spirit uses this term in other scriptures, we learn that it means the "day that we, the Church, are caught away to meet the Lord and be judged by Him" (see 1st Cor.1:8, 5:5, 2nd Cor.1:14, Phil.1:6). This confirms verse 1 and our gathering to Him for the Bema (Rom.14:10, 2nd Cor.5:10).
Depends on which manuscript, it either says, "the day of CHRIST" or "the day of the LORD":

--v.2 "the day of Christ" - 2 Thessalonians 2 (KJV) - That ye be not soon (blueletterbible.org)

--v.2 "the day of the Lord" - 2 Thessalonians 2:2 Greek Text Analysis (biblehub.com)


whichever one (of those ^ ) is correct, the verse goes on to say "[purporting that it] IS PRESENT [G1764 - enestēken / enistémi" - PERFECT indicative]"


This means that, whoever he is cautioning them NOT to believe/be misled by (about this), is SAYING THIS (that that *thing* [whatever it is] "IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]")... and when we consider this, I tend to believe one is more likely than the other (DOTL or DoChr) to be the case, as to which one is meant.



[so the false-conveyors are saying "______ IS PRESENT" (what is it that would make the Thessalonians "fall for this"??)]
 

luigi

Junior Member
Dec 6, 2015
1,222
216
63
#32
The first thing in expounding a scripture is to establish the reason for the book it is in. 1st Thessalonians was written because Paul had taught the Rapture in Thessaloniki, but because he was forced to flee after only three weeks, he did not teach it comprehensively. Because Paul taught that every saint must expect the Second Coming of the Lord at any time, the saints were dismayed when some of the saints died and no Rapture had occurred. Paul writes to correct this and show that the dead saints will suffer no disadvantage to the living saints at the moment of rapture.

2nd Thessalonians is written because the hefty persecution (1:4-5) caused some to teach that the Great Tribulation was upon them and they had missed the Rapture. Paul writes to correct this. Chapter 2 starts with the subject of rapture - (i) "the coming of the Lord" and "our being gathered to Him".

Note that the word for "coming" in verse 1 is "parousia" in the Greek, which strictly means "(His) PRESENCE". It is not His "arrival" on Mount of Olives, but His PRESENCE in the clouds.

In verse 2 we have a special term. All through the Old and New Testament, the "DAY of the LORD" is taught to be a day of vengeance and wrath upon the earth. But here we have the "DAY of Christ". If we study the way the Holy Spirit uses this term in other scriptures, we learn that it means the "day that we, the Church, are caught away to meet the Lord and be judged by Him" (see 1st Cor.1:8, 5:5, 2nd Cor.1:14, Phil.1:6). This confirms verse 1 and our gathering to Him for the Bema (Rom.14:10, 2nd Cor.5:10).

In verse 3 Paul says that this "day" of being Raptured to face judgment as the Church cannot come until some events have occurred. They are (i) an apostasy, (ii) the Beast must be revealed, and, and (iii) a "Withholder" must be removed.

Apostasy.
The word "apostasy" means to fall from an elevated position to a low position, or to fall away from a position of truth to a lie. Implied is that that which becomes apostate once held a high position and will, in future, tumble to a low position. On examining the population of the earth, we find three distinct Peoples. (i) The Nations, or the Gentiles, (ii) The Nation of Israel, and (iii) The New Man or the Church. The Nations are the enemies of God and at best, are totally fallen, depraved and sinful. There is no high position to loose. The Nation of Israel is largely dispersed throughout the Nations as Chastisement for breaking the Law, and those who retur to the Land after it was declared a Nation again in 1948, are indifferent to the Law and hate and reject Jesus Christ. They are about to embrace the Beast, and are thus at an all-time low place in God's estimation. The Church is is the only entity that can fall away. And scripture agrees. Already in Acts there was trouble in the Church, the letters are written because of problems, and the last communication regarding the Churches in Revelation 2 and 3 show five apostate Churches of seven, with our Lord no longer calling the Church but only individual OVERCOMERS. The APOSTASY is in the Church.

The Revealing of the man of sin.
By studying Daniel Chapter 9, we can see two distinct points in the career of the Beast. He (i) obtains a stature and position to enable him to negotiate what no other man has been able to do up to now - to enable Israel to have the daily oblation. This, by default, means that a Temple must be standing, for it is there that Moses commands the oblation, and (ii) three and one half years later he will break this pact, stop the oblation, and command universal worship towards himself. But these two decisive points in his career are only dome when he is in power. His REVEALING is another thing altogether. Revealing somebody means that they were hidden, and are now made manifest. Since the Beast comes out of the Abyss, his REVEALING is one of two possible occasions. (i) When he appears out of the Abyss, or (ii) when he is presented by the ten kings who give their power to him. Thus, the REVEALING of the Beast is sometime BEFORE he makes the pact with Israel in Daniel 9:27. This EVENT will therefore be MORE THAN SEVEN YEARS before Armageddon, and MORE THAN three and one half years before the Abomination of Desolation.

The Withholder.
There is much dispute among Bible scholars as to who this might be. By Paul's words in verse 5 and 6, he had obviously told the Thessalonian saints who this was. But to us, the "WITHHOLDER" is not named. Can we discover who he/it is? We have some evidence. The grammar must first be examined. It poses no problems. Something WITHHOLDS (i) lawlessness overtaking the whole world, (ii) the Beast being manifested. Options are few. Could it be Christ? No. He was removed 2,000 years ago. Could it be the Holy Spirit? No. The Holy Spirit is evidently present throughout the Great Tribulation as is shown by the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11. Could it be the Church? No. Because (a) it is apostate, (b) it is not removed and passes through the Great Tribulation (Rev.7), (c) it is not removed and is Overcome by the Beast (Rev.13:7). But there is One ENTITY that has all the qualifications. The OVERCOMERS OF THE CHURCH!

Our Lord Jesus said that we are salt, and if we keep our flavor, we prevent corruption. An apostate Church has no flavor left, but there are "THEM" (plural) who have the power "to cast down the Accuser" and "THEY (plural) OVERCAME HIM" so that the Accuser is forced out of heaven (Revelation 12:10-11). The Man-Child (plural) is defined by the fact that he will rule the nations with a rod of iron, and besides our Lord Jesus Christ, the only people who will rule the nations with a rod of iron IS OVERCOMERS OF THE APOSTATE CHURCH. Revelation 2:26-27 says;

26 "And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father."


To the Church is given, NOT to fight against flesh and blood, but against Principalities in high places (Eph.6:12). And the weapons are spiritual, not carnal. The Man-Child does not overcome the Beast. He overcomes HIM who gives the Beast his power - the Adversary - the Devil (Rev.13:2-4). And he OVERCOMES, "... by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death" (Rev.12:11). Not only do the Overcomers overcome the apostasy in the Churches, not only do the Overcomers retain their flavor as salt to prevent corruption, not only do the Overcomers Overcome the Accuser - the Devil, but their presence in heaven after Rapture means that the Devil is DISPLACED from heaven.

Who is more qualified, other than our Lord Jesus Christ, to be the WITHHOLDER than the OVERCOMERS of the apostate Church?
Oxford dictionary Apostasy definition: the abandonment or renunciation of a religious or political belief:
The lie one billion plus apostates will choose along with the rest of the world over the truth is the topic.
 

luigi

Junior Member
Dec 6, 2015
1,222
216
63
#33
I will wait until tomorrow to see if anyone can interpret the metaphors in Revelation 8, which provides the reason for what the lie is, and which is also the bottomless pit and the sea from which the beast shall ascend, and have all the world who are not written in the lambs book of life in adoration of. If no answers by then I will explain.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,923
2,118
113
#34
Yes they will be workers of iniquity, meaning they did not believe in Christ's faith, but that still does not represent the lie so many will choose over the truth. The lie has to do with the beast's ascension that the whole world who are not written in the lambs book of life will be googoo gaga over.
sry, just now seeing this post...

... so, even though I did not go into what I believe it entails, by my pointing out [PAUL'S POINT (2Th1&2) re: ] the TWO OPPOSITE "beliefs" ppl WILL COME TO EMBRACE (in that "future" time period), one can begin to see what it entails... (as I see it, anyway)...

...and when I pointed out the Matt7 thing (which RELATES [being the same time-frame, as it]), then we can see this pertains to "those who come in His name, but who are not truly connected with Christ" (one could say, they are RELIGIOUS PEOPLE but who are NOT SAVED [by grace through faith in Christ's finished work alone, for salvation]--who will find themselves IN the trib years, but note, who [being "self-righteous," as they are] will not acknowledge this to be the case, but that surely "what just happened" [the EXIT of "the Church which is His body" in the rapture-event] COULD NOT HAVE BEEN such a thing, because, after all THEY ARE STILL HERE ;) ... it surely must have been the "gather ye *FIRST* the TARES" event, instead! (according to their belief [their deluded belief]... which is of course a "LIE / [the] FALSE / [the] PSEUDEI" or at least is a significant PART OF IT! ;) )
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,923
2,118
113
#35
I will wait until tomorrow to see if anyone can interpret the metaphors in Revelation 8, which provides the reason for what the lie is, and which is also the bottomless pit and the sea from which the beast shall ascend, and have all the world who are not written in the lambs book of life in adoration of. If no answers by then I will explain.
As I understand it,

--"the beast [rise up out-of/] from the SEA" (Rev13:1,5-7 and Dan7:20-25 [the part esp where the "A MOUTH" is mentioned]) means from the Gentiles/nations

--"the beast coming up out-from the EARTH" (Rev13:11-18; who I believe is the FP) means from Israel


... so if this is the case, the former of the two ^ speaks of that which is related to "the TIMES of the Gentiles" (Neb's "dream/statue/image" with Neb as "head of gold"... Note: this does NOT refer to "the Church age")




In view of this ^ , when we see the phrase "THAT WICKED [G459]" (in 2Th2:8, speaking of the ARRIVAL of "the man of sin" [IN HIS TIME]), we can view its usage elsewhere (G459) in 1Cor9:21 [4x], where Paul is referring to "those without law [i.e. the Gentiles]"


[G459 - anomos - "From a (as a negative particle) and nomos; lawless, i.e. (negatively) not subject to (the Jewish) law; (by implication, a Gentile), or [...]" ]



[to be clear, I am not suggesting this means "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" ;) ]
 
Last edited:

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,923
2,118
113
#36
^ p.s. I think the "bottomless pit" is (will be) the spirit behind it, empowering it (so to speak--i.e. not visible to the naked eye ;) ), whereas "out from the sea" is the physical manifestation on the earth-realm (the realm of its operation), of same... if that makes sense [versus "out of the earth," which is the other "beast" (FP); each speaking of its own distinct origination (-location)]
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
1,504
307
83
#37
You are correct that the apostasy are those who will renounce their faith in Christ. They will lose their faith in what Christ taught, to love your neighbor, to love truth, justice, equity, and all spiritual virtues, in exchange for carnal pleasures. These one billion plus apostates will join the rest of the faithless world who are not written in the lambs book of life, in adoration for the dragon, the beast and the beasts mouth (aka the man of sin).
This brings us back to the original question: What is the lie that one billion plus former believers in all that Christ represents, will choose over the truth, so that they may continue to take pleasure in unrighteousness? I gave a hint previously in that there is data pertaining to it in scriptures about the beast.

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Satan's lie of Christian Zionism, a contradiction in terms, and all that it spawns (protocols of Zion, communist revolutions, world wars, etc), the lie deceiving the church and all, to abandon their former faith in the cross as salvation alone. "There is peace and security." Not from God, false "World peace", in the uniting of all religions.

https://www.equip.org/article/a-biblical-response-to-christian-zionism/
Christian Zionism is the dispensational notion that God has two distinct people, one of whom must be raptured before He can continue His plan with the other. Scripture, however, reveals one chosen people who form one covenant community, beautifully symbolized as one cultivated olive tree.

Just like Sara offering her slave Hagar to Abraham to effect themselves God's promises of a multitude of descendants, bringing forth Ishmael and not God's covenant child Isaac, we humanist humans think we can accomplish God's promises of the Jesus Christ the Messiah's millennial reign on earth (as prophesied in Ezekiel 37 - 48 and Revelation 20) ourselves, they say... without waiting patiently for God's Messiah to come in the clouds...

1 Thessalonians 5 (English Standard Version)
The Day of the Lord
1Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers,a you have no need to have anything written to you. 2For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. 5For you are all childrenb of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness. 6So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night. 8But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation. 9For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him. 11Therefore encourage one another and build one another up, just as you are doing.

There is "Peace and Security" as promised by President Trump's Jewish son, Jared Kushner head quartered at 666th on 5th Avenue, New York, New York. It is the drafted agreement of a Christian country's Abrahamic Accord/Covenant of "Peace and Security" for Jews in Israel and Islam in the surrounding Muslim countries, see the "Peace and Security" as promised below at 3m50s (not at three and a half years...):


 
Jun 11, 2020
1,370
424
83
73
#38
Depends on which manuscript, it either says, "the day of CHRIST" or "the day of the LORD":

--v.2 "the day of Christ" - 2 Thessalonians 2 (KJV) - That ye be not soon (blueletterbible.org)

--v.2 "the day of the Lord" - 2 Thessalonians 2:2 Greek Text Analysis (biblehub.com)


whichever one (of those ^ ) is correct, the verse goes on to say "[purporting that it] IS PRESENT [G1764 - enestēken / enistémi" - PERFECT indicative]"


This means that, whoever he is cautioning them NOT to believe/be misled by (about this), is SAYING THIS (that that *thing* [whatever it is] "IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]")... and when we consider this, I tend to believe one is more likely than the other (DOTL or DoChr) to be the case, as to which one is meant.



[so the false-conveyors are saying "______ IS PRESENT" (what is it that would make the Thessalonians "fall for this"??)]
Your format, as I've said before, is difficult. So apart from the differing texts, I cannot pinpoint your obejction. The internal evidence decides which "day" it is. It is a day (i) of our gathering to Him, and (ii) that the "revealing" of the Beast must precede. It is not the "day" of the destruction of the Beast, which would be the "day of the Lord". Most manuscript disputes are settled this way.
 
Jun 11, 2020
1,370
424
83
73
#39
Oxford dictionary Apostasy definition: the abandonment or renunciation of a religious or political belief:
The lie one billion plus apostates will choose along with the rest of the world over the truth is the topic.
I'll accept your definition over mine. Does it change the meaning though? Who, of the three parties of men on earth, the Nations, the Nation of Israel, and/or the New Man can abandon their religious belief? I judge only the New Man. The world has none to abandon, and Israel abandoned theirs along time ago.

"One billion apostates"? I cannot follow your arithmetic. That makes one in eight people apostate. Do you think that there are that many Christians? That assumes that 13% of the world's population is Christian. The Lord called it "the LITTLE flock".
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,923
2,118
113
#40
Your format, as I've said before, is difficult. So apart from the differing texts, I cannot pinpoint your obejction. The internal evidence decides which "day" it is. It is a day (i) of our gathering to Him, and (ii) that the "revealing" of the Beast must precede. It is not the "day" of the destruction of the Beast, which would be the "day of the Lord". Most manuscript disputes are settled this way.
I don't believe either phrase refers to "a singular 24-hr day," thus...

"the Day of the Lord" (a period-of-time-[not merely 24-hrs]-of-JUDGMENTs followed by a period-of-time-[also not merely 24-hrs]-of-BLESSINGs [ALL earthly-located]--all of that together makes up "the Day of the Lord") is:

--[DOTL] something distinct from the Subject of v.1 (which v.1 speaks solely of the Subject of our Rapture)

--[DOTL] something Paul was cautioning them not to be persuaded by false-conveyors "IS PRESENT" (and would indeed be "troubling" to them, because it starts out with the "JUDGMENTs" time-period aspect), v.2 so "don't believe THEM"... and saying also, "believe what WE taught you INSTEAD" (v.15)

--[DOTL] something that would be REASONABLE for them to have been persuaded "IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]," based on their PRESENT and ONGOING, VERY NEGATIVE experiences they were ENDURing (2Th1:4)

--[DOTL] something that Paul was telling how would "FIT" [time-wise] IN RELATION TO the other thing (or, the SEQUENCE between the one and the other--this is why v.1's Subject is distinct from v.2's Subject--how they "fit" together TIME-WISE/SEQUENCE-WISE)

--[DOTL] something they already "KNOW PERFECTLY" would ARRIVE like "a thief IN THE NIGHT" and like the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" (matching what Jesus spoke of in the Olivet Discourse, Matt25/Mk13... THAT would indeed FREAK THEM OUT to think had ARRIVED and "IS PRESENT")...

... so they understood "WHAT" that is [involving an earthly time-period OF JUDGMENTs]...

... what they needed was a letter (which would have taken SOME TIME to reach them) telling them not to be convinced by anyone persuading them it "IS PRESENT" (again, their PRESENT and ONGOING "tribulations and persecutions would have made this PERFECTLY REASONABLE for them to believe [the DOTL] "IS PRESENT" [tho it wasn't])... It makes NO SENSE that they would have been convinced by someone telling them "[they] MISSED THE RAPTURE"... No! (this is NOT indicated by the text). They were under no such delusion, nor were they at risk of being under any such delusion (all one has to do is "look around" to see with one's eyes that this is not so... and these were not dense people ;) ... and what kind of LIAR would think such a thing would be to any degree persuasive to them, considering such tangible evidence abounding?? :oops: )