The Pre-Tribulation Rapture: The Blessed Hope of the Saints

[Pilgrimshope]

^ One has to "READ-[back]-INTO" Jesus' words, the idea of "RAPTURE," which He was NOT covering the Subject regarding (up to and INCLUDING His Olivet Discourse)... but instead, He spoke all about the Subject of His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, which will commence upon His "RETURN" there (that is, TO THE EARTH). There IS a "Rapture," to be sure, but Jesus was not covering THAT Subject, there (or even, up to that point and including His Olivet Discourse). Re-read it with this in mind... and it will begin to become clearer to you (that this is indeed the case, esp when you compare Scripture to Scripture)



[Matt24:29-31 corresponds with Isaiah 27:12-13... note WHO and HOW [/in what MANNER] and at WHICH TRUMPET and TO WHERE they are gathered, and TO WHAT PURPOSE... everything COMPLETELY *DISTINCT* from that of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" event ]

again I can’t follow anything your getting at I think you are seeing things that aren’t there and trying to make several different things out of one

but I don’t think we’re going to come together on this so it seems like it’s a waste of time maybe a different subject sometime I simply don’t believe in a ore tribulation rapture the scriptures aren’t there to create that doctrine unless it’s 97 percent the persons independent explanations and a reference to an obscure scripture I don’t follow things that aren’t there without needing to depend on someone’s interpretations

 

[Absolutely]

yes but do you have any biblical information to discuss and can you address what Jesus Christ said or are we just gonna pretend that he didn’t explain all that to his disciples ?

Lol
Re read my post please.
And DO SEE THE QUOTES I listed BY JESUS.
(the ones you seem to leave out/skip)
Unbelievable

 

[Absolutely]

I wonder what the patience of the saints is when the system of the beast is killing everyone who does not take its mark? Where's the great flyaway prior to Satan, the Beast, and Antichrist's system here?

Revelation 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

It means to not take up arms against the AC.
His job is to mark and controll earths population and martyr Christians.

 

[Absolutely]

There are no scriptures supporting a dual coming to faith in Christ, where the Lord comes and picks up a first crew, departs, and then returns later for a second crew.

Read rev 14 which is not the rapture of the church but a second gathering of remnant jews following firstfruit jews (the 144k firstfruit jews)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

again I can’t follow anything your getting at

I get it, believe me.

I think you are seeing things that aren’t there and trying to make several different things out of one

Actually, this is what I see *you* doing, just like many people do... but allow me to explain what I mean (don't feel bad, you're not alone! ). I'm going to use an old post of mine... to save me much typing tonight... the old fingers are getting tired right about now... lol...

... this post is about the 12 MOST-COMMON [types-of] PASSAGES that people often MIS-CONSTRUE to be referring to "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" event/time-slot, but which ARE NOT... and INSTEAD actually speak of "His Second Coming TO THE EARTH " FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom [-age] (though there IS a Rapture, THESE passages are NOT covering THAT Subject):

[quoting old post]

--ALL "Son of man cometh/coming/shall come/etc" passages

--"the kingdom OF THE heavenS" (the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom)

--"the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" passages (ditto the above; referred to in a few different passages)

--the "G347 - shall sit down [around a table / at a meal]" of Matt8:11 and its parallel (also Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44, etc)

--the entire Olivet Discourse (except for the section of Lk21:12-24a about the events of 70ad), so Matt24-25/Mk13/Lk21

--the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" references of Lk18:8[chpt-17-end] "avenge IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]," [that underlined phrase [/time-period] also used in Romans 16:20 to/for/about "the Church which is His body" (distinct LOCATION, same time-frame) and Rev1:1/22:6] (specific, limited, future time-period leading UP TO the earthly MK, which will commence at His Second Coming to the earth)

--"the end [singular] of the age [singular]" in Matthew 13:24,30,39,40,49-50 (also Matt24:3 and His response which follows); as well as "the age [singular] to come" which follows the other, sequentially, but is found in Matt12:32 (the MK) located in the text before the Matt13 passage

--the two "RETURN" passages of Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal [G347 - see this also in Matt8:11 and parallel!]; and Luke 19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN," when He will deal out responsibilities regarding "have thou authority over 10 cities" and "likewise... be thou over 5" (and the parallels to these; see also Rev2:26-27, Rev19:15b ["SHALL [future] shepherd them [the nations]..." ("FUTURE" from even THAT point in time)], Rev20:4, etc)


--ALL "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" passages (for those NOT entering the earthly MK time period [at the time of His Second Coming to the earth], as ALL "saints/the righteous" WILL be present and accounted FOR, to enjoy)

--the "ye [the 12] shall sit on 12 thrones, judgING the 12 tribes of Israel" (Lk22:30,16,18 and Matt19:28 [compare with Matt25:31-34 for TIMING: His 2nd Coming to the earth], and comp. Matt26:29 "until THAT DAY when I drink it NEW *with [/accompanying - G3326] you in My Father's kingdom"])

--about EIGHT to TEN "BLESSED" passages in the gospels [correlating with Dan12:12's "BLESSED" (specific time-slot ["BLESSED is he that waiteth and cometh to the 1335 days"]--referring to "still-living" persons ['saints'], at the time of His Second Coming to the earth) and Rev19:9's "BLESSED" both/all pertaining to their entrance into the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His RETURN to the earth at the time of His Second Coming to the earth Rev19]

--the Transfiguration (a picture of His Second Coming glory)

[end quoting old post]

but I don’t think we’re going to come together on this so it seems like it’s a waste of time maybe a different subject sometime I simply don’t believe in a ore tribulation rapture the scriptures aren’t there to create that doctrine unless it’s 97 percent the persons independent explanations and a reference to an obscure scripture I don’t follow things that aren’t there without needing to depend on someone’s interpretations

Well... tell me where you see the "Rapture [IN THE AIR]" in any of those passages I just pointed out (which are about "His Second Coming TO THE EARTH, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom [and NOT about "our Rapture," PER CONTEXTS]).





[p.s. remember that God gave Paul to say/write: "know ye not that WE SHALL JUDGE ANGELS" - 1Cor6:3[14]... How do you explain such a thing, in view of the perspective you hold?]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

note: keep in mind that that "LIST of 12 REFERENCES" ^ was a re-post, and was originally part of the context of a DIFFERENT CONVO (I might have tweaked it somewhat, had I had more energy tonight... alas, I'm off to dreamland even as we speak..........zzzzz)

 

[BenjaminN]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

note: keep in mind that that "LIST of 12 REFERENCES" ^ was a re-post, and was originally part of the context of a DIFFERENT CONVO (I might have tweaked it somewhat, had I had more energy tonight... alas, I'm off to dreamland even as we speak..........zzzzz)

Oops... I had forgotten I wanted to add ONE MORE to that LIST (been meaning to, for a long time, to add this):

--Matthew 24:14 / Matthew 26:13 ("14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." and "13 Truly I tell you, wherever this gospel is preached in all the world, what she has done will also be told in memory of her. ")... the RESULTS/OUTCOME of this, is shown in Rev7:9,14 (set specifically in context of "THE GREAT tribulation" [i.e. the last HALF, that is, the remaining 1260 days leading UP TO His "RETURN" to the earth), and Matthew 25:31-48 ("Sheep and goat" judgment/separation of the nations [/Gentiles], at His Second Coming to the earth), and Matt22:9-14 (wedding FEAST/SUPPER = earthly MK age)... I'd made a post about the "oil" (regarding this second reference/example: Matt26:13)

 

[BenjaminN]

2 Peter 3 (New King James Version)

The Day of the Lord
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be [d]burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ the "IN WHICH" (of that passage) is speaking of a very lengthy duration of time (IN WHICH a GREAT MANY things will transpire!!), and we can see this by: 1) examining both CHPTS of Isa34-35 and not merely ONE VERSE extracted out-from its CONTEXT (34:4); 2) realizing this "IN WHICH" is the same time-period that Acts 17:31 is also referring to (not merely "a singular 24-hr day"); 3) studying just how the word "dissolved" is used elsewhere (and not just in Isa34:4 alone); 4) studying out how the word "elements" is used elsewhere; 5) doing as Peter said... to "BE NOT IGNORANT of THIS ONE THING"; 6) studying the biblical definition and usage of the phrase "the Day of the Lord," which INCLUDES *all THREE* of the following:

--"the 7-yr trib/70th-Wk" upon the earth (the "DARK/DARKNESS/IN THE NIGHT" aspect), and
--"His Second Coming to the earth" (the "SUN of righteousness ARISE" aspect), and
--"His 1000-yr reign on/over the earth" (the "reign... GLORIOUSLY" aspect)

... ALL THREE of these together make up what is known as "THE DAY OF THE LORD" (it is NOT merely "a singular 24-hr day"... and it does not "ARRIVE" to unfold upon the earth ONLY at the time of His Second Coming to the earth Rev19... but PRIOR TO THAT point! [when He will "STAND to JUDGE" Isa3:13 / Rev5:6 / etc... way back at the START of the trib yrs (when He will OPEN SEAL #1)])

 

[luigi]

Do you consider it a literal 42 months ?

Good morning Pilgrimshope, Yes I do consider it to be a literal 42 months, because this time frame also appears in Revelation 11:2 & 3 when the gentiles tread Jerusalem underfoot, while the two witnesses are testifying there for 1,260 days. This is when the beast who rises from the bottomless pit (same as the beast in Revelation 13 who rises from the sea) makes war with the two witnesses, at the end of who's reign, the Lord will then commence to reign (Revelation 11:15). This 42 month period which are 1,260 days in Revelation 11:2-3 also appears in Revelation 12:6 & 14, by another description as a time (1), times (2), and half a time (1/2), totaling 3.5 times. When you then divide 1260 days by 3.5 times, we see that each time equals 360 days,---probably representing the shortened years the Lord will shorten.

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

is that enough time for five Kings to have ruled and fallen one to finish his reign and still twelve more left to
Come ? Which make up the beast ?

If the first five kings were to come and go within the 42 month there would certainly be a problem. It is a matter of context in understanding what the five members of the beast having had their day means. Assume for example the G-7 represent the seven members of the beast; five of them having ruled and fallen would not mean that they are out of the picture; it just means they are no longer the predominant member of the group. As such, I then understand Italy/Rome having had its day of predominance, of these seven nations somewhere in the first to maybe fifth centuries. Japan would have had its day of predominance circa the 15th century; France circa the 16th, England circa the 18th century; the U.S. in the 20th century. I am, however, not sure about when Germany or Canada would have had their days of predominance.

Of course the beast is the eigtj king in this reference but still he comes afterwards and the reign of the seven headed beast can’t be only 42 months can it if it involves 18 different Kings only 11 of whom rule simultaneously being the final rule of the king who comes twice and his ten servants.

This eighth king gets a little more complicated and difficult to understand. What is the criteria motivating the fourth beast in Daniel 7, who is the same beast with 10 horns in Revelation 13? Answer: The fourth beast devours the whole earth (Daniel 7:23). The seven member nations of the 10 horned beast are therefore the world's leading consumer nations. As such, the eighth king would be the nation that mostly supplies the seven member nations with the finished products its members worship. In my opinion, the eighth king represents China.

Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

it aeems Like it can’t possibly be literal 42 months to Me but I was just curious about your thoughts On whether you take seven years literal and the dividing of that three and a half years literal ?

it doesn’t matter if we don’t agree it just seems you have some good thoughts and I was wondering

The seven year covenant with many throughout Middle Eastern nations (Daniel 9:27), in which the Gentiles destroy the city (Daniel 9:26), and in the latter half of the week tread Jerusalem underfoot (Revelation 11), is likewise to secure and attain a very much needed commodity (oil) in order for the beast's system to manufacture and consume all the material goods it worships.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

 

[luigi]

If you're saying "coming" (as in, TO THE EARTH), then NO, He DOES NOT come "to the earth" TWICE. I've not suggested He does.


But be aware that when He comes for "the meeting [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR," that this is NOT "TO THE EARTH".

When He comes "TO THE EARTH" (which is NOT "the meeting [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR" point in time), this is called (in places) His "RETURN" [that is, to the earth]... so we can look at those passages and see:


--"when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" [i.e. as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom]... THEN the meal [G347]!! Those "saints" (at His "RETURN" to the earth, in this Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 passage AND ITS PARALLELS) have NOT EVER LIFTED OFF THE EARTH

--and Lk19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN"... when He will deal out responsibilities having to do with "have thou authority over 10 cities" and "be thou likewise over 5 cities" ("cities" are "on the earth," where these "saints" are STILL LOCATED, at that point in time, having NEVER LIFTED OFF THE EARTH

--much more I could say... but ppl don't usually like to read long, involved posts...

WOW! So let me see if I have your picture right. The Lord will come and just hover in the clouds while He meets with group 1? The Lord then takes off again, and comes back later to meet with group 2 on the ground? Like I posted previously, there are no scriptures supporting this two round episode. And as I also posted previously there are additional scriptures supporting the Lords return as a single one time event.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Good morning Pilgrimshope, Yes I do consider it to be a literal 42 months, because this time frame also appears in Revelation 11:2 & 3 when the gentiles tread Jerusalem underfoot, while the two witnesses are testifying there for 1,260 days. This is when the beast who rises from the bottomless pit (same as the beast in Revelation 13 who rises from the sea) makes war with the two witnesses, at the end of who's reign, the Lord will then commence to reign (Revelation 11:15). This 42 month period which are 1,260 days in Revelation 11:2-3 also appears in Revelation 12:6 & 14, by another description as a time (1), times (2), and half a time (1/2), totaling 3.5 times. When you then divide 1260 days by 3.5 times, we see that each time equals 360 days,---[...]

"

I'm glad to find we have some agreement. = )

I too see the "42 mos" as literal.



The only place I differ (as far as I can tell from what you've written ^ ), is that I see the "2W's 1260 days" to STRADDLE the two halves, rather than to fit into either half. This is because I see the END of their "1260 days" at the "6th Trumpet/2nd Woe" time-slot, whereas the "5th Trumpet/1st Woe [unto the earth]" is the MID-trib point (Rev8:13, etc...[too tired to search my memory for the passages to support this, which aren't readily coming to mind, this late at night. LOL... maybe Rev9?? i think... lol]). The SEVEN SEALS and the first FOUR Trumpets, in the FIRST HALF (1260 days); the last THREE Trumpets and the SEVEN VIALS in the LAST HALF (1260 days). The "2W's 1260 days" STRADDLES these two halves.

 

[luigi]

It means to not take up arms against the AC.
His job is to mark and controll earths population and martyr Christians.

If we believe in the spiritual qualities and teachings of Christ, we will then certainly not take up arms against the AC. The context of the scripture, however, is that during the ordeal that Christians will be under extreme duress and are dying, that we are then not to join in with the hedonistic euphoria that will be under the beast's reign, which will produce days like those of Noah, and days like those of Lot.
And yes you are also correct that the AC will be given control over all of earth.

 

[luigi]

Read rev 14 which is not the rapture of the church but a second gathering of remnant jews following firstfruit jews (the 144k firstfruit jews)

The Lord is impartial on those who believe in/on Him, and does not favor one group over another. There is only one body in Christ.
If the Lord were to come and pick up a first group, and depart, then why would the whole world mourn when they see the Lord coming in the clouds, if there is still time to repent for a supposed second chance, upon a second return?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

WOW! So let me see if I have your picture right. The Lord will come and just hover in the clouds while He meets with group 1?

Are you asking if that's ALL THAT HAPPENS??

No.

The Lord then takes off again, and comes back later to meet with group 2 on the ground?

No.

The BEMA of Christ takes place (pertaining SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"... there is about 5-7 differing judgments, all told.

THEN the "24 elders" say, "hast redeemed US to God by thy blood, out of EVERY..." (you know the rest of the words... I'm tired, lol).

THEN, Jesus OPENS SEAL #1 [EQUIVALENT to the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 / Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE']!!]" of the MANY MORE "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that will unfold from there... as I said]

etc...

... and ALL OF THIS (on thru Rev19 [totaling 2520 days]) occurs within the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period that 1:1/1:19c/4:1 spoke of [not to mention Lk18:8 and Rom16:20 mention this 'time-period' ALSO!], at the start... so, IOW, the START of the "70th Week" (so LOTS HAPPENS between those two points in time. No one is "just hovering in the clouds, twiddling their thumbs!!" )

Like I posted previously, there are no scriptures supporting this two round episode. And as I also posted previously there are additional scriptures supporting the Lords return as a single one time event.

I already pointed out that biblically-speaking, the term "RETURN" speaks ONLY of "His Second Coming TO THE EARTH" [THAT IS "ONCE" ONLY!!] and Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 says (of this), "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal [G347]!! WE will be RETURNING "WITH [G4862] HIM" !! [whereas, those who will have come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture" will STILL BE ON THE EARTH, having NEVER LIFTED OFF OF IT! ("RAPTURE" does NOT pertain to those "saints" )] )

 

[luigi]

"

I'm glad to find we have some agreement. = )

I too see the "42 mos" as literal.



The only place I differ (as far as I can tell from what you've written ^ ), is that I see the "2W's 1260 days" to STRADDLE the two halves, rather than to fit into either half. This is because I see the END of their "1260 days" at the "6th Trumpet/2nd Woe" time-slot, whereas the "5th Trumpet/1st Woe [unto the earth]" is the MID-trib point (Rev8:13, etc...[too tired to search my memory for the passages to support this, which aren't readily coming to mind, this late at night. LOL... maybe Rev9?? i think... lol]). The SEVEN SEALS and the first FOUR Trumpets, in the FIRST HALF (1260 days); the last THREE Trumpets and the SEVEN VIALS in the LAST HALF (1260 days). The "2W's 1260 days" STRADDLES these two halves.

The problem with straddling the first and second halves of the week is that at the end of the two witnesses testimony, when they are killed by the beast, and 3.5 days later they are resurrected, the Lord will then commence to reign (Revelation 11:15), at which time the beasts reign comes to a close. The two witnesses 42 months therefore have in the most part to represent the latter half of the week.

 

[luigi]

The BEMA of Christ takes place (pertaining SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"... there is about 5-7 differing judgments, all told.

There is only one body of Christ. The church, which is His Body includes all races who believe in the spiritual virtues of love, truth, and justice, that Christ believes in. The Lord does not come back a second time for a group of Jews who repent after seeing Him up in the clouds earlier. When the whole world see the Lord coming on the clouds of heaven and realize they messed up and now have no further hope, this includes any and all Jews who have participated in the beasts system.
What do you think, will there be some Jews who just sit on the sidelines for 3.5 years, not accepting the beasts mark, while at the same time not believing in the spiritual virtues of love, truth, and justice, which to believe in is to be a member of Christ's body?
All on earth, including the Jews, will either believe in the spiritual virtues of Christ, or they will not believe in these virtues, and will believe instead in the delusion of the carnal indulgences that will be the beast's system.
The only ones who will sit on the sidelines during the beast's hedonistic world order will be those who believe in the spiritual virtues of Christ, while all who do not believe in the spiritual virtues of Christ, will participate and worship the beast. No reprieve for any of the latter, including Jews.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The problem with straddling the first and second halves of the week is that at the end of the two witnesses testimony, when they are killed by the beast, and 3.5 days later they are resurrected, the Lord will then commence to reign (Revelation 11:15), at which time the beasts reign comes to a close. The two witnesses 42 months therefore have in the most part to represent the latter half of the week.

"And the seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were great voices in heaven, saying: "The kingdom of the world has become that of our Lord and of His Christ, and He will reign [future tense] to the ages of the ages." "

I have no trouble viewing this as...

that this "announcement/pronouncement" actually precedes the carrying out of it, in time...

Hope that makes sense. It does to me.

As I see it, there still remains "7 Vials" (which themselves unfold over SOME length of "time") before the 2520-days-total are completed in their entirety, and His "RETURN" to the earth takes place Rev19/Matt24:29-31/Isa27:12-13 etc...

 

[luigi]

"And the seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were great voices in heaven, saying: "The kingdom of the world has become that of our Lord and of His Christ, and He will reign [future tense] to the ages of the ages." "

I have no trouble viewing this as...

that this "announcement/pronouncement" actually precedes the carrying out of it, in time...

Hope that makes sense. It does to me.

As I see it, there still remains "7 Vials" (which themselves unfold over SOME length of "time") before the 2520-days-total are completed in their entirety, and His "RETURN" to the earth takes place Rev19/Matt24:29-31/Isa27:12-13 etc...

He will reign means commencing from that point onward. Are become in Revelation 11:15 is present tense. What also commences at this point is the rewarding of the lords servants, while at the same time the Lord's wrath commences to fall on the beast's worshippers (Revelation 11:18).

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.