The Pre-Tribulation Rapture: The Blessed Hope of the Saints

[luigi]

As I've said in past posts, Paul acknowledged that even the Thessalonians (in the first century) were EXPERIENCING "persecutions and tribulations ye are ENDURING" 2Th1:4!... Additionally, "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" has been experiencing SAME (and "trouble," and even "martyrdom," at times) throughout its ENTIRE EXISTENCE ON THE EARTH, ever since then!

We are NOT awaiting the "future, specific, limited [7-year-] tribulation period [/70th-Week] IN ORDER TO EXPERIENCE IT! See again, "yea, ALL that shall live godly IN Christ Jesus SHALL SUFFER PERSECUTION" !!! Meaning, THROUGHOUT our existence on this earth... ever since the first century!! Throughout its ENTIRETY! Anyone who is being taught that this is what the Rapture pertains to, is being MIS-TAUGHT! That is not its purpose!

When the faithful in Christ suffered persecutions and were martyred they experienced tribulation. Likewise, many Christians today throughout the world are experiencing tribulation.
Some of us may very well not be waiting for the 7 year covenant with many to commence in which great tribulation shall be throughout the world, but if you find yourself in it, don't be too surprised, as it does appear many of the descriptions on the day of the Lord in which people today are running from one area to another to find relief, are only finding a worse situation.

Amos 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the Lord! to what end is it for you? the day of the Lord is darkness, and not light. 19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him. 20 Shall not the day of the Lord be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

 

[KJV1611]

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.


Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Why is verse 39 an it that gets raised up and why is IT raised up again?

Why is verse 40 a him that gets raised up?
An awesome secret is hidden there.

 

[luigi]

The TEXT ITSELF says, "And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then [G1899 - epeita - 'properly, only then (emphasizing what precedes is a necessary precursor)'] we, the living remaining, will be
caught away together[/AT THE SAME TIME] WITH [G4862 - IN UNION WITH] them in the clouds for [...]"


This is NOT saying that WE (who are still ALIVE) will GO TO MEET THEM (the Dead is Christ) IN THE AIR where THEY ALREADY went to be FIRST, NO!!!

"caught up/away TOGETHER" *means* "caught up/away AT THE SAME TIME [IN UNION-WITH them, WHEN THEY are ALSO 'CAUGHT UP'!!]"

It seems to me that you are claiming both a simultaneous ascension with the saints who have been killed, along with the saints who remain when the Lord returns, as well as stating that the dead in Christ are already ascended. If what you are saying is that there is a time difference between the dead in Christ first rising to meet the Lord in the air, that is then followed some time later by the living remnant saints, then I agree. But if you are saying that the dead saints are somehow resurrected and rise into the clouds who are then within seconds or minutes later followed by the living remaining saints, I will then only repeat what I posted earlier, that there is no reason to distinguish between the dead in Christ rising first, if we the living follow immediately after. This is basic common sense reasoning.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

When the faithful in Christ suffered persecutions and were martyred they experienced tribulation. Likewise, many Christians today throughout the world are experiencing tribulation.
Some of us may very well not be waiting for the 7 year covenant with many to commence in which great tribulation shall be throughout the world, but if you find yourself in it, don't be too surprised, as it does appear many of the descriptions on the day of the Lord in which people today are running from one area to another to find relief, are only finding a worse situation.

Amos 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the Lord! to what end is it for you? the day of the Lord is darkness, and not light. 19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him. 20 Shall not the day of the Lord be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

That is the exact "time-period" that the Holy Spirit through Paul's pen informs us that "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" will have NO PART IN.



[I've pointed this out in a great many posts , so I won't elaborate again here]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

It seems to me that you are claiming both a simultaneous ascension with the saints who have been killed, along with the saints who remain when the Lord returns, as well as stating that the dead in Christ are already ascended. If what you are saying is that there is a time difference between the dead in Christ first rising to meet the Lord in the air, that is then followed some time later by the living remnant saints, then I agree. But if you are saying that the dead saints are somehow resurrected and rise into the clouds who are then within seconds or minutes later followed by the living remaining saints, I will then only repeat what I posted earlier, that there is no reason to distinguish between the dead in Christ rising first, if we the living follow immediately after. This is basic common sense reasoning.

It sounds as though you are using only so much human reasoning (rather than acknowledging the text, which STATES, "CAUGHT-UP TOGETHER / CAUGHT-UP AT THE SAME TIME").


[quoting from BibleHub]
"In 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and 1 Thessalonians 5:10, where ἅμα is followed by σύν, ἅμα is an adverb ([defined as-->] at the same time) and must be joined to the verb [-harpazo/caught-up]."

[end quote; bold, color, and underline mine; brackets mine; parenthesis original]



Thus, it says, "caught-up AT THE SAME TIME" (i.e. caught up "AS ONE"... the "ONE BODY" [at ONE SINGULAR point-in-time!])

 

[luigi]

That is the exact "time-period" that the Holy Spirit through Paul's pen informs us that "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" will have NO PART IN.



[I've pointed this out in a great many posts , so I won't elaborate again here]

What the Lord's people will not suffer is the Lord's wrath on the beast's worshippers (Revelation 11:18). The Lord's wrath upon the beast's followers commences following the 42 months allotted the dragon, the beast, and the beast's mouth (aka the Antichrist), at which time the Lord returns (Revelation 11:15 & Daniel 7:27), with ten thousands of His saints to execute judgment on the ungodly (Enoch, and Jude 1:14-15). There are still saints alive on the earth at the end of the beast's reign who will then be caught up with the earlier caught up saints. Prior to the Lord's wrath on the beast's worshipers, there is tribulation on the earth for the saints who are not on board with the beast's system (Daniel 7:25 & Revelation 13:7).

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

 

[luigi]

It sounds as though you are using only so much human reasoning (rather than acknowledging the text, which STATES, "CAUGHT-UP TOGETHER / CAUGHT-UP AT THE SAME TIME").


[quoting from BibleHub]
"In 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and 1 Thessalonians 5:10, where ἅμα is followed by σύν, ἅμα is an adverb ([defined as-->] at the same time) and must be joined to the verb [-harpazo/caught-up]."

[end quote; bold, color, and underline mine; brackets mine; parenthesis original]



Thus, it says, "caught-up AT THE SAME TIME" (i.e. caught up "AS ONE"... the "ONE BODY" [at ONE SINGULAR point-in-time!])

A difference in time is clearly specified between the dead in Christ rising first prior to the living in Christ on the earth rising afterward. If you wish to believe this is immediately together, that's up to you. But as I see numerous other scriptures (some of which I have posted in response to you) that the dead in Christ come with Christ at the conclusion of the beast's system, at which time there are a living remnant of saints on the earth; ---I then recognize a variable sizable difference in time between the martyrs and the living in their skins on the earth saints when the Lord returns.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Wouldn't it be easier to just say you are a "Premillennial Post-Tribulationist". Your interpretation of the Scriptures, is what a "Premillennial Pre Tribulationist", call the "Yo-yo theorist". That is: We are caught up in the air with the Lord at the end of the Tribulation, just so we can all come right back down to the earth again. Doesn't really make since.

Additionally, I continue to point back to the Old Testament shadow. Enoch - a type of believer in the assembly Christ is building - is taken up alive and this just before the flood - a type of the Great Tribulation. While not all agree with this view, we know the Old Testament is full of "types and shadows" of the New.

no i do t see any reason for me to label myself after some term people made up to label each other I’m looking for biblical things to discuss .

I think it’s best to say I believe the things Jesus taught in the gospel concerning his second coming and the end of the world and the gathering of his church to himself

it’s not about “
My interpretation “ it’s about when Jesus was asked he told them plainly About these things and we’re believers.

I don’t even know that that term your using means or where it would come from it’s definitely not something from scripture so I’m really not really interested.

I’m looking for scripture not someone’s interpretation of a scripture here and there but answers I don’t care if someone else tells me or I find it myself I’m looking for something like this to believe and I don’t think any of the “ pre trib” rapture folks have ever even addressed this instead I see a lot of arguments why it’s not right but no ones offering any scripture even close to as clear about the matters were discussing



“And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:5-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14, 24-27, 29-31‬ ‭

Jesus is only going to return once , it’s what the church has been waiting for all along

“For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭16:27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:40-43‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

These are all speaking of the same return telling us how things are going to be when Jesus returns . It’s just one appointed day just like when he came the first time it was foretold for ages and then one day he showed up and most didn’t even recognize him

one day Jesus is going to return from heaven that day is at the end of the world. I believe this not because I’m interpreting it but because I’m not interpreting anything I’m believing things will go as the lord has said it will go

I realize it will differ from someone say who believes in a different idea , and that’s ok with me . But it seems sort of straight forward is my position we should learn to believe the gospel and forget about our own wisdom and learnin’ because that’s what he said to do

 

[Ahwatukee]

God's wrath commences upon the faithless worshipers of the beast at the conclusion of the beasts system (Revelation 11:18). One should then not confuse the Lord's wrath upon the faithless beast's worshippers with the tribulation that will be taking place on the saints prior to the Lord's wrath.

God's wrath will come upon everyone who is on the earth during that time. It will come upon all who have rejected His Son, the arrogant, the proud and all who willfully live according to the sinful nature.

The church however will not be here, because the believer has already received Christ and have been credited with His Righteousness and have been reconciled to God. In addition, Christ has already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely. Therefore, the wrath of God no longer rests upon those who believe in His Son and will not enter into that time of wrath.

One should then not confuse the Lord's wrath upon the faithless beast's worshippers with the tribulation

On the contrary, one should not separate the tribulation from God's wrath, because they are the same thing.

 

[luigi]

God's wrath will come upon everyone who is on the earth during that time. It will come upon all who have rejected His Son, the arrogant, the proud and all who willfully live according to the sinful nature.

The church however will not be here, because the believer has already received Christ and have been credited with His Righteousness and have been reconciled to God. In addition, Christ has already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely. Therefore, the wrath of God no longer rests upon those who believe in His Son and will not enter into that time of wrath.



On the contrary, one should not separate the tribulation from God's wrath, because they are the same thing.

Gods wrath will only come upon the worshippers of the beast at that time, while those who have not worshiped the beast are rewarded (Revelation 11:18).

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[re: Post #168]

“As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

... the text literally reads: "so shall it be in THE END [SINGULAR] OF THE AGE [SINGULAR]"

And Jesus had JUST talked with them about "the age [SINGULAR] to come" (Matt12:32; the previous chpt), which they RIGHTHLY UNDERSTOOD to be speaking of "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom [-age]"



[the one follows immediately after the other, all "earthly-located"... They just did not understand that AN INTERVENING time-period (what we now know as "this present age [singular]") would come first, before "the END [SINGULAR] of the AGE [SINGULAR]" (the one THEY were STANDING IN and SPEAKING OUT FROM) would play out... ]


See again their Q of Him in Acts 1:6... which has to do with "TIME [/TIMING]"... and this is AFTER they've spent some "40 days [POST-RESURRECTION, with Him TEACHING THEM of THIS VERY SUBJECT!!!]" with Him And note: His ANSWER also has to do with its TIMING (not its NATURE, which they HAD CORRECTLY UNDERSTOOD!)

 

[Ahwatukee]

Gods wrath will only come upon the worshippers of the beast at that time, while those who have not worshiped the beast are rewarded (Revelation 11:18).

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

No, God's wrath is not only upon the beast worshipers. For example, only the those who have the seal of God in their foreheads, which is the 144,000 are exempt from the torment of the 5th trumpet.

When that angel pours out his bowl on the sun, it will scorch people with fire and intense heat world-wide.

At the 1st trumpet a third of the earth and trees are burned up. Many will be exposed to that.

If you will do a study on "the Day of the Lord" which the tribulation period, the time of God's wrath, you will see the reasons for said wrath. Yes, those who worship the beast will suffer these plagues of wrath, but it was first because of their sins and rejection of Christ that God's wrath is coming.

 

[luigi]

No, God's wrath is not only upon the beast worshipers. For example, only the those who have the seal of God in their foreheads, which is the 144,000 are exempt from the torment of the 5th trumpet.

When that angel pours out his bowl on the sun, it will scorch people with fire and intense heat world-wide.

At the 1st trumpet a third of the earth and trees are burned up. Many will be exposed to that.

If you will do a study on "the Day of the Lord" which the tribulation period, the time of God's wrath, you will see the reasons for said wrath. Yes, those who worship the beast will suffer these plagues of wrath, but it was first because of their sins and rejection of Christ that God's wrath is coming.

Rather than going into bowls and trumpets, the 144,000, and other things, the important thing is that when the 42 months of the beast is up, the Lord's wrath then comes upon the worshippers of the beast, while the Lords servants on the earth at that time are then to be rewarded. This rewarding also appears in Daniel 12:12 as a blessing upon those who have endured until day 1335.

Daniel 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[...] while the Lords servants on the earth at that time are then to be rewarded. This rewarding also appears in Daniel 12:12 as a blessing upon those who have endured until day 1335.

Daniel 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Yes, I often am pointing out the 8-10 "BLESSED" passages that speak of "still-living SAINTS" at that point in time (His Second Coming to the earth Rev19); yet, these "saints [/believers/the righteous]" are not "the Church which is His body"... but those "saints" (having come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture") who will ENTER the earthly MK age in their mortal bodies capable of reproducing/bearing children...

 

[luigi]

Yes, I often am pointing out the 8-10 "BLESSED" passages that speak of "still-living SAINTS" at that point in time (His Second Coming to the earth Rev19); yet, these "saints [/believers/the righteous]" are not "the Church which is His body"... but those "saints" (having come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture") who will ENTER the earthly MK age in their mortal bodies capable of reproducing/bearing children...

There are no scriptures supporting a dual coming to faith in Christ, where the Lord comes and picks up a first crew, departs, and then returns later for a second crew.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

There are no scriptures supporting a dual coming to faith in Christ, where the Lord comes and picks up a first crew, departs, and then returns later for a second crew.

amen I fully agree

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Rather than going into bowls and trumpets, the 144,000, and other things, the important thing is that when the 42 months of the beast is up, the Lord's wrath then comes upon the worshippers of the beast, while the Lords servants on the earth at that time are then to be rewarded. This rewarding also appears in Daniel 12:12 as a blessing upon those who have endured until day 1335.

Daniel 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Do you consider it a literal 42 months ?

is that enough time for five Kings to have ruled and fallen one to finish his reign and still twelve more left to
Come ? Which make up the beast ?

Or do you think 42 months or (three and a half years ) represents half of the allotted total time , the first half being the time of the two witnesses on earth ?

“And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭11:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

remembering that it’s the beast who comes up and kills them and begins his reign of equal time ? Which make up the total of seven . The number of completion.

Of course the beast is the eigtj king in this reference but still he comes afterwards and the reign of the seven headed beast can’t be only 42 months can it if it involves 18 different Kings only 11 of whom rule simultaneously being the final rule of the king who comes twice and his ten servants.

it aeems Like it can’t possibly be literal 42 months to Me but I was just curious about your thoughts On whether you take seven years literal and the dividing of that three and a half years literal ?

it doesn’t matter if we don’t agree it just seems you have some good thoughts and I was wondering

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

There are no scriptures supporting a dual coming to faith in Christ, where the Lord comes and picks up a first crew, departs, and then returns later for a second crew.

If you're saying "coming" (as in, TO THE EARTH), then NO, He DOES NOT come "to the earth" TWICE. I've not suggested He does.


But be aware that when He comes for "the meeting [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR," that this is NOT "TO THE EARTH".

When He comes "TO THE EARTH" (which is NOT "the meeting [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR" point in time), this is called (in places) His "RETURN" [that is, to the earth]... so we can look at those passages and see:


--"when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" [i.e. as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom]... THEN the meal [G347]!! Those "saints" (at His "RETURN" to the earth, in this Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 passage AND ITS PARALLELS) have NOT EVER LIFTED OFF THE EARTH

--and Lk19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN"... when He will deal out responsibilities having to do with "have thou authority over 10 cities" and "be thou likewise over 5 cities" ("cities" are "on the earth," where these "saints" are STILL LOCATED, at that point in time, having NEVER LIFTED OFF THE EARTH

--much more I could say... but ppl don't usually like to read long, involved posts...

 

[Pilgrimshope]

If you're saying "coming" (as in, TO THE EARTH), then NO, He DOES NOT come "to the earth" TWICE. I've not suggested He does.


But be aware that when He comes for "the meeting [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR," that this is NOT "TO THE EARTH".

When He comes "TO THE EARTH" (which is NOT "the meeting [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR" point in time), this is called (in places) His "RETURN" [that is, to the earth]... so we can look at those passages and see:


--"when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" [i.e. as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom]... THEN the meal [G347]!! Those "saints" (at His "RETURN" to the earth, in this Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 passage AND ITS PARALLELS) have NOT EVER LIFTED OFF THE EARTH

--and Lk19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN"... when He will deal out responsibilities having to do with "have thou authority over 10 cities" and "be thou likewise over 5 cities" ("cities" are "on the earth," where these "saints" are STILL LOCATED, at that point in time, having NEVER LIFTED OFF THE EARTH

--much more I could say... but ppl don't usually like to read long, involved posts...

I don’t mind length actually enjoy an involved thorough post , but none of what you are saying changes what scripture actually says about these matters all I can find in your posts is you trying to argue against what is plainly written and the scripture references your using don’t make any sense as to what your saying there’s absolutely no scripture taken on context that says what your position is claiming is the point

it’s like if I said the sky is yellow and then quoted a person saying July is hot as proof

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ One has to "READ-[back]-INTO" Jesus' words, the idea of "RAPTURE," which He was NOT covering the Subject regarding (up to and INCLUDING His Olivet Discourse)... but instead, He spoke all about the Subject of His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, which will commence upon His "RETURN" there (that is, TO THE EARTH). There IS a "Rapture," to be sure, but Jesus was not covering THAT Subject, there (or even, up to that point and including His Olivet Discourse). Re-read it with this in mind... and it will begin to become clearer to you (that this is indeed the case, esp when you compare Scripture to Scripture)



[Matt24:29-31 corresponds with Isaiah 27:12-13... note WHO and HOW [/in what MANNER] and at WHICH TRUMPET and TO WHERE they are gathered, and TO WHAT PURPOSE... everything COMPLETELY *DISTINCT* from that of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" event ]