The Pre-Tribulation Rapture: The Blessed Hope of the Saints

[luigi]

Who do you think the two witnesses represent ? Just sort of picking your thoughts

Well, I'm not entirely sure, but just before we start getting information on the two witnesses in Revelation 11, the angel does inform John of Patmos that he does need to testify again (Revelation 10:11), and so I do think he will probably be one of the two witnesses. As for the other witness, I don't know of any other scriptures that talk of another who must prophesy again.

Revelation 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

 

[Child0fYAHUAH]

Jesus spoke to the multitudes in Parables, & even his Apostles did not understand. So, He had to teach them the meanings.
He told them, not one word do I speak to them with understanding. Then he proceeded to teach them that they all had spiritual meaning & none were to be taken literal. If you study his explanation to his Apostles of his parables then & only then can we understand them all! The most misunderstood is the Parable of Lazarus & the rich man. I see that you have used the parable of the Virgins as your foundation. Try to understand the Spiritual meaning & not take it literally.

 

[Child0fYAHUAH]

Well, I'm not entirely sure, but just before we start getting information on the two witnesses in Revelation 11, the angel does inform John of Patmos that he does need to testify again (Revelation 10:11), and so I do think he will probably be one of the two witnesses. As for the other witness, I don't know of any other scriptures that talk of another who must prophesy again.

Revelation 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

John was considered to be Elijah reborn. Elijah & Moses were with Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration. It is appointed to all men to die once, so who has not died? Enoch, Elijah, Moses ???

 

[Child0fYAHUAH]

So when is the LAST trumpet to be blown? Its a MYSTERY!

1COR.15 [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] Behold, I SHEW YOU A MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

MYSTERY—last trumpet {it shall sound} – The LAST one! – No more trumpets to be blown – Its the LAST trumpet!

REVELATION 8 [1] And when he had opened THE SEVENTH SEAL, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. [2] And I saw the SEVEN ANGELS which stood before God; and to them were given SEVEN TRUMPETS.

Seventh angel has a trumpet. It shall sound. Its also the LAST one to be heard. Its also AFTER the trib period

REVELATION 10 [6] And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: [7] But in the days of the voice of THE SEVENTH ANGEL, when he shall begin to sound, THE MYSTERY OF GOD SHOULD BE FINISHED, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

MYSTERY SOLVED! The seventh angel begins to sound. This is the LAST trumpet you find being blown in the bible

REVELATION 16 [17] And the SEVENTH ANGEL poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, IT IS DONE.

REVELATION 11 [14] The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. [15]And THE SEVENTH ANGEL SOUNDED; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, THE KINGDOMS OF THIS WORLD ARE BECOME THE KINGDOMS OF OUR LORD, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

As i said before, we do not flit off to heaven at the 1Cor.15 event. As the seventh angel sounds the trumpet the kingdoms of this world are to become the kingdoms of the Lord and thats where the Lord will bring us after meeting Him in the air. His kingdom, right here on Gods green earth

Amen. God/YAHUAH's throne comes down, we don't go up. He will reign forever on The New Heaven & Earth

 

[Child0fYAHUAH]

The fact that Jesus is firstfruits resurrection AUTOMATICALLY makes first resurrection 3 or 4 sections.

You have no case at all.

Pretrib rapture fits like a glove,postrib rapture has not one verse...not one lone verse to its credit.
Zero

How about Matthew 24 where Christ says we will go thru tribulation, be brought before Magistrates, & even be beheaded

 

[Absolutely]

Hi, I like your new avatar image.

But you've sort of side stepped the point there. Which was that the pre-trib model has the church fragmented & broken up into multiple gatherings. (Or at least 2) The Church is the whole body of Christ. It can't be one group partying in heaven while the rest suffer for 7 years. He gathers us all to him at his return when we are revealed in him.

Me either.
Those left behind are martyred right away.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Me either.
Those left behind are martyred right away.

Nobody is left behind. The sons of God are revealed in him at his return when death is placed under his feet. The resurrection.
Pre trib rapture doctrine is a house of cards that falls apart when compared with scripture.

 

[Child0fYAHUAH]

The love of doctrine over the love of truth.

Jesus clearly stated that in the last days, men would follow their own doctrines & traditions more than his words

 

[Kolistus]

In heaven?

REVELATION 19 [13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. [14] And the armies which were in HEAVEN followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

The greek word for heaven that is found in Rev.19 is found below

Greek Word: οὐρανός
Transliteration: ouranos
Phonetic Pronunciationo-ran-os'
Root: perhaps from the same as <G3735> (through the idea of elevation), the sky
Cross Reference: TDNT - 5:497,736
Part of Speech: n m
Vine's Words: Air, Heaven, HeavenlyStrong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

ACTS 10 [12] Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the AIR.

LUKE 9 [57] And it came to pass, that, as they went in the way, a certain man said unto him, Lord, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest. [58] And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the AIR have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

MATTHEW 6 [26] Behold the fowls of the AIR: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?

It is also the same greek word used to describe the air {where the birds fly} in the 3 scriptures above

1 THESSALONIANS 4 [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the AIR: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We do meet the Lord in the air. Do we then become the armys of God {rev.19}.

One thing to remember is that while the word "air" "sky" and "heaven" can mean the same thing. We have reasons to believe when it comes to the catching away of the Church (often called 'Rapture') we are not talking about the "sky" but rather where the Lord is.

I offer this verse as proof:

John 14:2-3
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Jesus is coming back, He is preparing a place for us in His FATHER'S house. The house of the Father is not just the "sky" as you put it. We are talking third heaven.

 

[Kolistus]

Next "smoking gun" pease.

All you previous one have zero merit.

I am a pre-tribber, but the post-trib "proof text" that has me puzzled is Revelation 16:15, where in the midst of the vials Jesus still says I am coming, indicating He has not come yet?
How would we tackle that?

 

[Absolutely]

Why would the scripture advise a Church that will be partying in heaven to have patience on the earth?
Daniel received the same warning.
There will be military resistance and defiance of the Antichrist during the tribulation.

The apostles.
No resistsnce.
Also heb 11
"You gladly watched the spoiling of your goods knowing you had a better inheritance in heaven"

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I am a pre-tribber, but the post-trib "proof text" that has me puzzled is Revelation 16:15, where in the midst of the vials Jesus still says I am coming, indicating He has not come yet?
How would we tackle that?

If I may...

"Behold, *I* come AS A THIEF. [period]" ... Jesus says OF HIMSELF regarding the time of His Second Coming to the earth [NOT "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"], at the Armageddon time-slot (Rev19:19,21/16:14-16/20:5 and the FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words in Isa24:21-22a[23]);

... whereas the TIME-PERIOD is [what is] to ARRIVE as "a thief IN THE NIGHT" ("the DOTL" earthly time-period of judgments-followed-by-blessings... ITS *ARRIVAL* being at a DISTINCT TIME-SLOT from the above-mentioned [and involves the man of sin IN HIS TIME, also!]);


... where it speaks of JESUS HIMSELF, the phrase DOES NOT use the additional words "IN THE NIGHT"




Also, the word in Rev16:15 for "COME" is "erchomai [G2064]," which word is used in BOTH contexts of our Rapture (IN THE AIR) AND of His Second Coming to the earth (same for the word "parousia [come / presence]"... but depends on "IN WHOSE PRESENCE" He will be, in any given CONTEXT, see. )



None of this poses ANY PROBLEM WHATSOEVER to the "pre-trib" viewpoint.

 

[BenjaminN]

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, let no one deceive you, that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 2 (New King James Version)

The Great Apostasy
2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of [a]Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of [b]sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [c]as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, let no one deceive you, that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed. 2 Thessalonians 2 (New King James Version) The Great Apostasy 2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of [a]Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of [b]sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [c]as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

I addressed that very passage yesterday (Post #142 [page 8] of a different thread... will post the link in this post, for the readers' convenience)... but FIRST NOTICE what you've done in the ABOVE QUOTE...

You have COMPLETELY BYPASSED the Subject OF VERSE 2 (in the manner of your highlighting of TWO DISTINCT ITEMS), which [v.2] is WHAT VERSE 3a is setting out to cover "FIRST" before v.3b goes on to then cover the Subject of WHAT WILL BE IN PLAY once the OTHER ONE THING takes place *FIRST* (the v.1 noun-event Subject!) IOW, you are CONFLATING two ITEMS, here, by skipping BACK OVER AND PAST v.2 (which is what Subject v.3a is starting out with!)


Here's that link to the Post I made yesterday (one of several I've made on this passage)... Please read CAREFULLY:

https://christianchat.com/threads/t...lessed-hope-of-the-saints.195611/post-4438835



____________

"apostasia" = "apostasis" -

"apostasia - LATER FORM FOR apostasis" - "apo stasis - a STANDING away from [away from a previous STANDING]"

[see again "stasis" in Heb9:8-9a]

 

[Absolutely]

yes the whites your rioting don’t support your theory is my point , I did read the scriptural references you used and , I don’t see anything your saying supported there.

but again it’s not necessary for you to convert to My view and I can’t tomyours because those scriptures your shoring for support don’t support the things your saying . Sometimes the best move is to just move on to a different subject , you and I have completely different views regarding what we’re talking about

that doesn’t make you my enemy , it just means we have some different views on scriptures . It’s ok to end a conversation peacefully even if it doesn’t come to a united conclusion .

so maybe one day you’ll be raptured before Christ returns , in sort of set on waiting for him to return in the end of this world , and if I die before that day I’m set in going to be with him where he is .

so yes I realize you used some scriptural numerical references but when I took the time to look them all up , it doesn’t support what you are saying I would have to just throw out scriptures that you have never even acknowledged and just trust in you and your thinking that doesn’t appear in scripture I’m not willing to do that

and I’m sure you probably feel the opposite that all the scriptures referenc numbers you used infallibly support the rapture

it’s ok to end there I feel like anyways I’m not here to force you or anyone to thjnk Like I do Seems we’re at an impasse regarding this matter , o hope to find agreement in another matter at some point thanks for the time you have given to the discussion

""so yes I realize you used some scriptural numerical references but when I took the time to look them all up , it doesn’t support what you are saying I would have to just throw out scriptures that you have never even acknowledged and just trust in you and your thinking that doesn’t appear in scripture I’m not willing to do that ""

That was easy for you.
You never referenced one dynamic I supplied.
So first you say you only go by what Jesus said while leaving out what Jesus said.(as I vividly portrayed)
Then you generalized my entire post into a reframe job.

Take one issue and show me where the words of Jesus I quoted are actually not the words and really mean something else.

You will find it is not so easy to sweep Jesus words under the carpet

 

[Absolutely]

How about Matthew 24 where Christ says we will go thru tribulation, be brought before Magistrates, & even be beheaded

Mat 24 starts with 3 questions.....not one dynamic but 3.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I addressed that very passage yesterday (Post #142 [page 8] of a different thread... will post the link in this post, for the readers' convenience)... but FIRST NOTICE what you've done in the ABOVE QUOTE...
You have COMPLETELY BYPASSED the Subject OF VERSE 2 (in the manner of your highlighting of TWO DISTINCT ITEMS), which [v.2] is WHAT VERSE 3a is setting out to cover "FIRST" before v.3b goes on to then cover the Subject of WHAT WILL BE IN PLAY once the OTHER ONE THING takes place *FIRST* (the v.1 noun-event Subject!) IOW, you are CONFLATING two ITEMS, here, by skipping BACK OVER AND PAST v.2 (which is what Subject v.3a is starting out with!)


Here's that link to the Post I made yesterday (one of several I've made on this passage)... Please read CAREFULLY:

https://christianchat.com/threads/t...lessed-hope-of-the-saints.195611/post-4438835



____________

"apostasia" = "apostasis" -

"apostasia - LATER FORM FOR apostasis" - "apo stasis - a STANDING away from [away from a previous STANDING]"

[see again "stasis" in Heb9:8-9a]

And to go along with THIS ^ post (on the Subject of what Paul is conveying in 2Th2), here are two other posts made in the past (on Same Subject):


[2Th2 explanation POST--page 15 - Post #289 (different thread)]

https://christianchat.com/threads/what-is-your-best-proof-for-a-pre-trib-rapture.188798/post-4095956



[color-coded chart POST--page 15--Post #290 (different thread)]

https://christianchat.com/threads/what-is-your-best-proof-for-a-pre-trib-rapture.188798/post-4095977

 

[Absolutely]

I am a pre-tribber, but the post-trib "proof text" that has me puzzled is Revelation 16:15, where in the midst of the vials Jesus still says I am coming, indicating He has not come yet?
How would we tackle that?

It is a reminder.
He is stopping and reiterating for them to walk (and referring to a pretrib setting) in a worthy manner.
He is not saying he is coming as in the rapture after the sixth seal.

 

[BenjaminN]

As to the coming of our Master יהושע Messiah and our gathering together to Him, let no one deceive you, the falling away is to come first, and the man of lawlessness is to be revealed.

2 Thessalonians 2 (ISR 1998)

​

1As to the coming of our Master יהושע Messiah and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to become easily unsettled in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as if the day of יהוה has come. 3Let no one deceive you in any way, because the falling away is to come first, and the man of lawlessnessa is to be revealed, the son of destruction, 4who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called Elohim or that is worshipped, so that he sits as Elohim in the Dwelling Place of Elohim, showing himself that he is Elohim.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[...] yesterday (Post #142 [page 8] of a different thread... [...]

Correction: it was in THIS SAME THREAD, lol