Works righteousness.

[Duskey]

Believe and His teaching save. AnHis teaching is to Love God and other not murder

1 John 4:20
“If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?”
So believe Jesus as God but not love Him and other not save

That verse changed my life by encouraging me to look at the good in people and to pray for my enemies. Now, who believes in Jesus but does not love Him?

 

[throughfaith]

The Messiah died for all sin.

His death was once, for all. He doesn't need to die again. It is finished.



...but the work of "mediation" and "cleansing of a guilty conscience" with His blood is a separate work that happens in time, one person at a time. This is why we needed an immortal High Priest. Can't cleanse the guilty consciences of believers not yet born, you know? The believer's conscience doesn't exist to cleanse until the believer exists. And cleansing doesn't begin until the believer confesses. So we needed a pure priest who lives for a LONGGG time.

If all cleansing of all believers (for all time) happened at the moment of His death we wouldn't currently need a High Priest with an indestructible life, but Hebrews specifically points out this unique quality that makes all the difference.

Hebrews 7:16 [brackets mine]
who has been constituted [as priest] not according to a law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an indestructible life.

The power of salvation isn't found in faith in Messiah's death, but in faith in His sinless blood that cleanses. Faith in His life. Our faith is supposed to be in what He's doing for us now in heaven and in our hearts.

Comparatively, works-based salvation would be me believing I can somehow cleanse myself of my sin guilty by doing good works or obeying the law. Again, I need the Messiah for that.



Maybe this example will help:

Let's say you bought a house that hasn't been lived in for years and years. And no one has kept it maintained in all that time so the dirt and filth has mounted room to room.

You buy the house and spend a week cleaning every room...and at the end of the week you look at the house and conclude that "all filth has been cleaned from my new home", which is true, so you furnish the house and move in.

But question: Was this the only time you'll ever clean your new home...or will you work to keep your home maintained, cleaning it weekly, monthly, and/or seasonally? What if a spill occurs or someone makes a mess in a specific room? Will you leave the mess or will you clean it up?

----

It's TRUE that when we were dead in our sins through faith in the Messiah we were forgiven of all of them that we committed...but unless we somehow instantly became perfect we were bound to stumble and sin again in the future, which is why we are told to go boldly to the throne in our time of need and confess the sin to keep ourselves clean. The Messiah does the rest.

Then when we're clean again we do our best not to sin, to obey, and to do good.

What if you forget one sin ? After all one sin was enough to plunge the whole world into the mess we are in now ? And if Jesus died for all sins that were yet future for you which ones did he leave out and why ?

 

[AlmondJoy]

Things religions and cults teach that are necessary for salvation.

Islam .
Your good deeds have to outweigh your bad.
works righteousness.
no assurance.

Mormons :
Good deeds and following all the laws and the teachings of Joseph Smith, plus water baptism with enduring to the end to be saved .
No assurance

Jehovah's Witnesses :
Water baptism
Preaching work , door to door ect .
you have to endure to the end to be saved .No assurance

Catholicism.
Water baptism .
Good deeds .
Literal consumption of the body and blood of Jesus.
confession .
works righteousness .
Dying in a state of grace for final justification.
Enduring to the end to be saved.
No assurance

Sadly . Some Christians also :
Only past sins forgiven by Jesus .
Deeds of faith.
repentence .
Water baptism .
Initial evidence.
Obedience .
Works .
Enduring to the end .
perseverance.
stop sinning.
10 commandments.
Sabbath .
confession .
No assurance.

Thou shalt have no other gods before me--God

You are committing idolatry and don't even realize it

You have created an idol god in your heart that you believe will overlook your willful sin

 

[AlmondJoy]

What if you forget one sin ? After all one sin was enough to plunge the whole world into the mess we are in now ? And if Jesus died for all sins that were yet future for you which ones did he leave out and why ?

When you willfully sin do you not feel guilty and pray to ask God to forgive you?

 

[throughfaith]

The Messiah died for all sin.

His death was once, for all. He doesn't need to die again. It is finished.



...but the work of "mediation" and "cleansing of a guilty conscience" with His blood is a separate work that happens in time, one person at a time. This is why we needed an immortal High Priest. Can't cleanse the guilty consciences of believers not yet born, you know? The believer's conscience doesn't exist to cleanse until the believer exists. And cleansing doesn't begin until the believer confesses. So we needed a pure priest who lives for a LONGGG time.

If all cleansing of all believers (for all time) happened at the moment of His death we wouldn't currently need a High Priest with an indestructible life, but Hebrews specifically points out this unique quality that makes all the difference.

Hebrews 7:16 [brackets mine]
who has been constituted [as priest] not according to a law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an indestructible life.

The power of salvation isn't found in faith in Messiah's death, but in faith in His sinless blood that cleanses. Faith in His life. Our faith is supposed to be in what He's doing for us now in heaven and in our hearts.

Comparatively, works-based salvation would be me believing I can somehow cleanse myself of my sin guilty by doing good works or obeying the law. Again, I need the Messiah for that.



Maybe this example will help:

Let's say you bought a house that hasn't been lived in for years and years. And no one has kept it maintained in all that time so the dirt and filth has mounted room to room.

You buy the house and spend a week cleaning every room...and at the end of the week you look at the house and conclude that "all filth has been cleaned from my new home", which is true, so you furnish the house and move in.

But question: Was this the only time you'll ever clean your new home...or will you work to keep your home maintained, cleaning it weekly, monthly, and/or seasonally? What if a spill occurs or someone makes a mess in a specific room? Will you leave the mess or will you clean it up?

----

It's TRUE that when we were dead in our sins through faith in the Messiah we were forgiven of all of them that we committed...but unless we somehow instantly became perfect we were bound to stumble and sin again in the future, which is why we are told to go boldly to the throne in our time of need and confess the sin to keep ourselves clean. The Messiah does the rest.

Then when we're clean again we do our best not to sin, to obey, and to do good.

Which ' works salvation ' groups believe that they cleanse there own sins by works, out of interest ?

 

[Duskey]

Which ' works salvation ' groups believe that they cleanse there own sins by works, out of interest ?

They seldom admit what they believe.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Here are some things that the Bible says one needs to be saved. What do you think of them?

Matthew 10:22 - saved by enduring
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 16:25 - saved by losing your soul-life (lit. Gk.)
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

Matthew 19:25 - saved by being poor.
25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

Matthew 24:13 - saved by enduring
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Matthew 24:22 - saved by God shortening the Tribulation
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

John 10:9 - saved by entering the right door
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Romans 5:10 - saved by the LIFE of Jesus
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

1st Timothy 2:15 - saved by childbearing. It excludes all men and all barren women
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

1st Peter 3:21 - baptism saves
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Jude 1:23 - saved by another putting fear into you
23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Revelation 21:24 - the NATIONS saved. They are CONTRASTED with the New Jerusalem and never believed
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

I would say
1 Jesus died for nothing
2 no one will be saved
3 he’ll will be full while heaven will be empty

 

[eternally-gratefull]

IF YOU want TO KNOW , STUDY WHAT THE HIGH PRIEST DOES, THEN YOU CAN SEE WHAT YESUAH IS DOING TODAY IN HEAVEN

He continues day by day moment by moment making intercession for us

 

[eternally-gratefull]

They seldom admit what they believe.

They deny it while they do it. I guess maybe they think we can’t see them

 

[Corban]

I would say
1 Jesus died for nothing
2 no one will be saved
3 he’ll will be full while heaven will be empty

And there, all did was quote scripture.

 

[Duskey]

And there, all did was quote scripture.

What are you enduring?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And there, all did was quote scripture.

Yep. But those scriptures do not say what you think they say

If all Those things are required my points stand

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What are you enduring?

And when are they enduring and what are they saved from

 

[Magenta]

Romans 3:20
“Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”

Romans 10:4

 

[Yahshua]

What if you forget one sin ? After all one sin was enough to plunge the whole world into the mess we are in now ? And if Jesus died for all sins that were yet future for you which ones did he leave out and why ?

This question always puzzles me when it's asked because it's doesn't take into account every truth we're taught about the entire process:

1) The sinner is drawn to the Messiah and joins the body through confession (i.e. "I am a sinner..."). All past sins held in forbearance are forgiven. Clean slate. The holy spirit is given. Grace is given. The believer is taught how to walk in The Way.

2) The believer finds themselves in a situation that tempts them to sin, let's say to tempt them to lie...

3) The Holy Spirit speaks to them in their conscience on what they shouldn't do. The choice is now theirs to make...

4) The new believer, not yet exercised or matured, chooses to lie. The situation is over. The sin is committed...

5) The Holy Spirit convicts them with godly sorrow. I.e. they feel bad about it...

6) Feeling a guilty conscience, they immediately find a private place to bend the knee and go before the throne to confess the sin and apologize, receiving their mercy, cleansing, and renewed strength to do better next time.

This is the life of a believer, maturing more and more and sinning less and less.

But if a believer isn't performing step 6, step 5 happens to them less and less until the believer is a follower of the Messiah in name only.

But let's say you can't find a private moment, the day passes, evening comes just before your prayer at night and somehow you forget about your sin. Well there were always offerings for sins of ignorance even in the OT. And so now after the Messiah your daily prayer includes a confession of sins you committed that you don't recall or were ignorant to, which literally can be saying something like "forgive me of my trespasses today", like the Messiah taught us to pray daily.

It wouldn't be in the Messiah's model of daily prayer, nor in John's instruction after the cross, if we weren't meant to confess daily. Following a life of daily prayer as believers are expected to do, there's no possible way to miss confessing a sin.

The only way such is possible is if one isn't praying properly each day.

Which ' works salvation ' groups believe that they cleanse there own sins by works, out of interest ?

I'm not sure. I'm not privy to any specific works-based salvation groups. But this was the issue Paul was addressing to the galatians. They were attempting to continue to rituals of cleansing their sins, found in the law, even after the Messiah, when only faith in His work in heaven was now necessary for cleansing sin, after ascension.

 

[throughfaith]

Thou shalt have no other gods before me--God

You are committing idolatry and don't even realize it

You have created an idol god in your heart that you believe will overlook your willful sin

This question always puzzles me when it's asked because it's doesn't take into account every truth we're taught about the entire process:

1) The sinner is drawn to the Messiah and joins the body through confession (i.e. "I am a sinner..."). All past sins held in forbearance are forgiven. Clean slate. The holy spirit is given. Grace is given. The believer is taught how to walk in The Way.

2) The believer finds themselves in a situation that tempts them to sin, let's say to tempt them to lie...

3) The Holy Spirit speaks to them in their conscience on what they shouldn't do. The choice is now theirs to make...

4) The new believer, not yet exercised or matured, chooses to lie. The situation is over. The sin is committed...

5) The Holy Spirit convicts them with godly sorrow. I.e. they feel bad about it...

6) Feeling a guilty conscience, they immediately find a private place to bend the knee and go before the throne to confess the sin and apologize, receiving their mercy, cleansing, and renewed strength to do better next time.

This is the life of a believer, maturing more and more and sinning less and less.

But if a believer isn't performing step 6, step 5 happens to them less and less until the believer is a follower of the Messiah in name only.

But let's say you can't find a private moment, the day passes, evening comes just before your prayer at night and somehow you forget about your sin. Well there were always offerings for sins of ignorance even in the OT. And so now after the Messiah your daily prayer includes a confession of sins you committed that you don't recall or were ignorant to, which literally can be saying something like "forgive me of my trespasses today", like the Messiah taught us to pray daily.

It wouldn't be in the Messiah's model of daily prayer, nor in John's instruction after the cross, if we weren't meant to confess daily. Following a life of daily prayer as believers are expected to do, there's no possible way to miss confessing a sin.

The only way such is possible is if one isn't praying properly each day.



I'm not sure. I'm not privy to any specific works-based salvation groups. But this was the issue Paul was addressing to the galatians. They were attempting to continue to rituals of cleansing their sins, found in the law, even after the Messiah, when only faith in His work in heaven was now necessary for cleansing sin, after ascension.

ok if your willing can we break down step by step . ok it looks like you only believe that past sins are forgiven . I believe we recieve remission and redemption. The price fully paid . All sins past present and future all paid for at the cross. All sins we committed were still future 2000 years ago when Jesus paid for them in his blood . Sin cannot be the issue anymore for anyone now , only glorification.

 

[throughfaith]

This question always puzzles me when it's asked because it's doesn't take into account every truth we're taught about the entire process:

1) The sinner is drawn to the Messiah and joins the body through confession (i.e. "I am a sinner..."). All past sins held in forbearance are forgiven. Clean slate. The holy spirit is given. Grace is given. The believer is taught how to walk in The Way.

2) The believer finds themselves in a situation that tempts them to sin, let's say to tempt them to lie...

3) The Holy Spirit speaks to them in their conscience on what they shouldn't do. The choice is now theirs to make...

4) The new believer, not yet exercised or matured, chooses to lie. The situation is over. The sin is committed...

5) The Holy Spirit convicts them with godly sorrow. I.e. they feel bad about it...

6) Feeling a guilty conscience, they immediately find a private place to bend the knee and go before the throne to confess the sin and apologize, receiving their mercy, cleansing, and renewed strength to do better next time.

This is the life of a believer, maturing more and more and sinning less and less.

But if a believer isn't performing step 6, step 5 happens to them less and less until the believer is a follower of the Messiah in name only.

But let's say you can't find a private moment, the day passes, evening comes just before your prayer at night and somehow you forget about your sin. Well there were always offerings for sins of ignorance even in the OT. And so now after the Messiah your daily prayer includes a confession of sins you committed that you don't recall or were ignorant to, which literally can be saying something like "forgive me of my trespasses today", like the Messiah taught us to pray daily.

It wouldn't be in the Messiah's model of daily prayer, nor in John's instruction after the cross, if we weren't meant to confess daily. Following a life of daily prayer as believers are expected to do, there's no possible way to miss confessing a sin.

The only way such is possible is if one isn't praying properly each day.



I'm not sure. I'm not privy to any specific works-based salvation groups. But this was the issue Paul was addressing to the galatians. They were attempting to continue to rituals of cleansing their sins, found in the law, even after the Messiah, when only faith in His work in heaven was now necessary for cleansing sin, after ascension.

If sin wasn't fully dealt with at the cross then we have un equal salvation . Think about it . Every old testament Saint who died and was awaiting redemption. Recieved it , So did we all .

 

[throughfaith]

This question always puzzles me when it's asked because it's doesn't take into account every truth we're taught about the entire process:

1) The sinner is drawn to the Messiah and joins the body through confession (i.e. "I am a sinner..."). All past sins held in forbearance are forgiven. Clean slate. The holy spirit is given. Grace is given. The believer is taught how to walk in The Way.

2) The believer finds themselves in a situation that tempts them to sin, let's say to tempt them to lie...

3) The Holy Spirit speaks to them in their conscience on what they shouldn't do. The choice is now theirs to make...

4) The new believer, not yet exercised or matured, chooses to lie. The situation is over. The sin is committed...

5) The Holy Spirit convicts them with godly sorrow. I.e. they feel bad about it...

6) Feeling a guilty conscience, they immediately find a private place to bend the knee and go before the throne to confess the sin and apologize, receiving their mercy, cleansing, and renewed strength to do better next time.

This is the life of a believer, maturing more and more and sinning less and less.

But if a believer isn't performing step 6, step 5 happens to them less and less until the believer is a follower of the Messiah in name only.

But let's say you can't find a private moment, the day passes, evening comes just before your prayer at night and somehow you forget about your sin. Well there were always offerings for sins of ignorance even in the OT. And so now after the Messiah your daily prayer includes a confession of sins you committed that you don't recall or were ignorant to, which literally can be saying something like "forgive me of my trespasses today", like the Messiah taught us to pray daily.

It wouldn't be in the Messiah's model of daily prayer, nor in John's instruction after the cross, if we weren't meant to confess daily. Following a life of daily prayer as believers are expected to do, there's no possible way to miss confessing a sin.

The only way such is possible is if one isn't praying properly each day.



I'm not sure. I'm not privy to any specific works-based salvation groups. But this was the issue Paul was addressing to the galatians. They were attempting to continue to rituals of cleansing their sins, found in the law, even after the Messiah, when only faith in His work in heaven was now necessary for cleansing sin, after ascension.

Do you have a verse which says a ) "The Holy Spirit speaks to them in their conscience on what they shouldn't do. The choice is now theirs to make..."
and b) "The Holy Spirit convicts them with godly sorrow. I.e. they feel bad about it...? Just looking for the verses to be specific?"

 

[throughfaith]

This question always puzzles me when it's asked because it's doesn't take into account every truth we're taught about the entire process:

1) The sinner is drawn to the Messiah and joins the body through confession (i.e. "I am a sinner..."). All past sins held in forbearance are forgiven. Clean slate. The holy spirit is given. Grace is given. The believer is taught how to walk in The Way.

2) The believer finds themselves in a situation that tempts them to sin, let's say to tempt them to lie...

3) The Holy Spirit speaks to them in their conscience on what they shouldn't do. The choice is now theirs to make...

4) The new believer, not yet exercised or matured, chooses to lie. The situation is over. The sin is committed...

5) The Holy Spirit convicts them with godly sorrow. I.e. they feel bad about it...

6) Feeling a guilty conscience, they immediately find a private place to bend the knee and go before the throne to confess the sin and apologize, receiving their mercy, cleansing, and renewed strength to do better next time.

This is the life of a believer, maturing more and more and sinning less and less.

But if a believer isn't performing step 6, step 5 happens to them less and less until the believer is a follower of the Messiah in name only.

But let's say you can't find a private moment, the day passes, evening comes just before your prayer at night and somehow you forget about your sin. Well there were always offerings for sins of ignorance even in the OT. And so now after the Messiah your daily prayer includes a confession of sins you committed that you don't recall or were ignorant to, which literally can be saying something like "forgive me of my trespasses today", like the Messiah taught us to pray daily.

It wouldn't be in the Messiah's model of daily prayer, nor in John's instruction after the cross, if we weren't meant to confess daily. Following a life of daily prayer as believers are expected to do, there's no possible way to miss confessing a sin.

The only way such is possible is if one isn't praying properly each day.



I'm not sure. I'm not privy to any specific works-based salvation groups. But this was the issue Paul was addressing to the galatians. They were attempting to continue to rituals of cleansing their sins, found in the law, even after the Messiah, when only faith in His work in heaven was now necessary for cleansing sin, after ascension.

Jesus taught the 'Lords prayer ' to jews . The Jewish diciples in the old testament , pre crucifixion . ( Mathew 6 ) . After Acts 2 we pray not corporate prayers but direct and personally " abba father " .

 

[throughfaith]

This question always puzzles me when it's asked because it's doesn't take into account every truth we're taught about the entire process:

1) The sinner is drawn to the Messiah and joins the body through confession (i.e. "I am a sinner..."). All past sins held in forbearance are forgiven. Clean slate. The holy spirit is given. Grace is given. The believer is taught how to walk in The Way.

2) The believer finds themselves in a situation that tempts them to sin, let's say to tempt them to lie...

3) The Holy Spirit speaks to them in their conscience on what they shouldn't do. The choice is now theirs to make...

4) The new believer, not yet exercised or matured, chooses to lie. The situation is over. The sin is committed...

5) The Holy Spirit convicts them with godly sorrow. I.e. they feel bad about it...

6) Feeling a guilty conscience, they immediately find a private place to bend the knee and go before the throne to confess the sin and apologize, receiving their mercy, cleansing, and renewed strength to do better next time.

This is the life of a believer, maturing more and more and sinning less and less.

But if a believer isn't performing step 6, step 5 happens to them less and less until the believer is a follower of the Messiah in name only.

But let's say you can't find a private moment, the day passes, evening comes just before your prayer at night and somehow you forget about your sin. Well there were always offerings for sins of ignorance even in the OT. And so now after the Messiah your daily prayer includes a confession of sins you committed that you don't recall or were ignorant to, which literally can be saying something like "forgive me of my trespasses today", like the Messiah taught us to pray daily.

It wouldn't be in the Messiah's model of daily prayer, nor in John's instruction after the cross, if we weren't meant to confess daily. Following a life of daily prayer as believers are expected to do, there's no possible way to miss confessing a sin.

The only way such is possible is if one isn't praying properly each day.



I'm not sure. I'm not privy to any specific works-based salvation groups. But this was the issue Paul was addressing to the galatians. They were attempting to continue to rituals of cleansing their sins, found in the law, even after the Messiah, when only faith in His work in heaven was now necessary for cleansing sin, after ascension.

It sounds like you have replaced the old testament sacrifice system with ' confessing sins ' . If you read the epistles you will see that sin has been dealt with before we believed . Israel sins ( The Nation ) are yet future to be blotted out . Acts 3 however .