John 15 What is it about ?

[throughfaith]

Well since you are over here now, asking the same questions, I will answer over here:

Your proof texts do not argue against Regeneration throughout the ages:

1 Peter 1:3, is not talking about "Regeneration".
Titus 3:5, proves it is an "Active" work of God upon the "PASSIVE" sinner.

“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit;” This verse clearly teaches, 1) It is not of us. 2) It is His mercy being demonstrated. 3) The means is by Regeneration. 4) through the renewing of ones mind.

John 7:39 “(But this spoke he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given ; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)” The Lord here, is again making reference to the Spirit coming in the role of the Comforter to empower the assembly members. In the KJ version, the word "given" is a supplied word and not in the text. The meaning is, that the Holy Spirit was "not yet" doing this particular office because the Saviour was still with them. You can't have both performing the same role.

This has nothing to do with the "New Birth". Certainly John 3:1-10, is not being discussed as a future event. It is being discussed as a present event.

John 3:8 The Spirit (πνευμα, spirit, wind, breath), is moving where He wills, and you are hearing (φωνην, present active indictive- voice, sound, noise), the sound thereof, but cannot not tell from where He comes (present passive indicative) , and where He is going: so is every one that has been born of the Spirit.

Here is the irrefutable clincher and where the Greek helps so much: The Greek word translated "BORN", is γεγεννημενος, it is a PERFECT Active Indicative verb. The "Perfect" tense is only found in the Greek, the English has no such tense. Being a "perfect", it means that this action - "born", began in the past, with continuing results, right on out to eternity. The perfect is often used in Scripture for things like: "It stands written" (usually translated as just "written"). But it means, it was written, it is now written and forever will be written. The perfect tense verbs, usually denote actions that are related to God and his Word are Works and not man.

Where does Titus 3.5 say "through the renewing of ones mind." ?

 

[Corban]

Isn't both the vine and the branches to bring forth fruit? Aren't we, the branches, adopted in? When someone is adopted, they inherit the very same things the original vine does.

It is man who separates the Jew and gentile, God doesn't except to give them special blessings for the work they do for the gentiles to be the caretakers of the word.

I think you might have mixed the True Vine with the Olive Tree. No problem.

Israel is forbidden by Law to have relations with the Gentiles. Deuteronomy 7:1-6;

1 "When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;
2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.
4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.
5 But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.
6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth."

 

[Corban]

*cough*

the resurrection of Jesus Christ

*cough*





if i could just interject -- not to take away from your point, but this is proof, and it is why we have hope -- why we have in fact, a sure hope, not as the world hopes, but 'an anchor for the soul'

I am unable to answer this one brother. I just don't know what you are talking about, although I'm sure you do. You've taken one of my sentences, divorced it from its context, added something to it, and then talked about Hebrews 6 in which the anchor to the soul is God's immutable councils when He made the Covenant of Promise with Abraham.

But in case I have understood your point, I was talking of OUR resurrection. It is still future.

• What proof would you give to a Hindu that it will come to pass?
• The resurrection of Jesus is attested to by multiple witnesses FOR THE CHURCH, but it is widely disbelieved (Matt.28:12-15)
• The proof of our resurrection is the resurrection of Jesus. This we BELIEVE. But if you asked your work colleague, he would say, "Where is your proof - show ME" - and you wouldn't be able to show an unbeliever proof
• Why would the great God of the universe give His "seal" as a "guarantee" if we have proof of OUR resurrection
• FAITH is not a PROOF. It is the substance of things HOPED FOR (Heb.11:1)

That's a bad cough you have there. Where's the good one you had

Go well and God's blessings

 

[luigi]

My objection is mainly that John 15 has anything to do with how we are saved today .

It can't be that because it says ,he never knew them .

I acknowledged that the Lord never knew the group in Matthew 7:21-23, and therefore could not represent the branches that were broken off and cast away, as the Lord would have known the branches prior to their leaving and no longer abiding in Christ.

 

[Blik]

I think you might have mixed the True Vine with the Olive Tree. No problem.

Israel is forbidden by Law to have relations with the Gentiles. Deuteronomy 7:1-6; ."

Because the Lord is eternal, and every verse is eternal truth, we need to understand this verse. That understanding requires a knowledge of the context. At the time this was written, every gentiles was a pagan. People accepted an idol that was assigned to their nation. If they accepted the true God, they also became a naturalized Jew. To this day we are to keep ourselves apart from pagans.

 

[awelight]

You know that literally no one believes that we ' birth ' ourselves right ? is that what you think?

That sir, is the strangest statement and question, that I have seen on this chat. I do not know where you came to such a conclusion.

The point being made here, is that you believe that the Holy Spirit was not yet doing the work because He had not yet come, in your not so Biblical opinion.

My point is, all you have to do is look at the text presented and you can see the Holy Spirit has been the agent of the New Birth for a long time. All believers, whether Old Testament or New, are born again believers. That is why our Lord said the following:

John 3:10-11 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou the teacher of Israel, and do you not understand these things? Verily, Verily I say unto thee, We speak that which we know, and bear witness of that which we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

So again, I repeat the verse that proves that the Holy Spirit had been giving "New Life" from the past and continues to do so:

John 3:8 The Spirit (πνευμα, spirit, wind, breath), is moving where He wills, and you are hearing (φωνην, present active indictive- voice, sound, noise), the sound thereof, but cannot not tell from where He comes (present passive indicative) , and where He is going: so is every one that has been born of the Spirit.

IMPORTANT CORRECTION to my previous post. In my rush, I stated that γεγεννημενος (Translated: "having been born"), was a "Perfect Active Indicative" verb... the voice and definition were stated incorrectly. It is a "Perfect Passive Participle" Therefore is understood in this way: Translation in English: "having been born" (because it is a "Perfect" tense verb, which denotes past action with ongoing and continuing action, (On the part of the Holy Spirit). This compound verb, in the Greek, is in the "Passive" voice. This means the person having been born, was "passive" when it happened. This means, it took place upon the recipient but they played no part in it. They were not active in bringing it about.

Sorry for my original error but I did not want the error to stand because: 1) I mishandled the Truth of God's Word and : 2) I do not wish to mislead someone in the Truth. Again my apologies.

 

[awelight]

Where does Titus 3.5 say "through the renewing of ones mind." ?

It does not literally say "mind" but the "renewing", which means to make new, is in association with the previous word "regeneration", so the writer, was giving to the reader, the idea that all was "renewed". As such, touching that ones: Views, Desires, Plans, Feelings and Purpose. So then, "Mind".

 

[throughfaith]

That sir, is the strangest statement and question, that I have seen on this chat. I do not know where you came to such a conclusion.

The point being made here, is that you believe that the Holy Spirit was not yet doing the work because He had not yet come, in your not so Biblical opinion.

My point is, all you have to do is look at the text presented and you can see the Holy Spirit has been the agent of the New Birth for a long time. All believers, whether Old Testament or New, are born again believers. That is why our Lord said the following:

John 3:10-11 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou the teacher of Israel, and do you not understand these things? Verily, Verily I say unto thee, We speak that which we know, and bear witness of that which we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

So again, I repeat the verse that proves that the Holy Spirit had been giving "New Life" from the past and continues to do so:

John 3:8 The Spirit (πνευμα, spirit, wind, breath), is moving where He wills, and you are hearing (φωνην, present active indictive- voice, sound, noise), the sound thereof, but cannot not tell from where He comes (present passive indicative) , and where He is going: so is every one that has been born of the Spirit.

IMPORTANT CORRECTION to my previous post. In my rush, I stated that γεγεννημενος (Translated: "having been born"), was a "Perfect Active Indicative" verb... the voice and definition were stated incorrectly. It is a "Perfect Passive Participle" Therefore is understood in this way: Translation in English: "having been born" (because it is a "Perfect" tense verb, which denotes past action with ongoing and continuing action, (On the part of the Holy Spirit). This compound verb, in the Greek, is in the "Passive" voice. This means the person having been born, was "passive" when it happened. This means, it took place upon the recipient but they played no part in it. They were not active in bringing it about.

Sorry for my original error but I did not want the error to stand because: 1) I mishandled the Truth of God's Word and : 2) I do not wish to mislead someone in the Truth. Again my apologies.

I meant the Holy Spirit was not indwelling believers and placing people in the 'BODY' of Jesus . No one was ' in christ ' until After Acts 2

 

[throughfaith]

It does not literally say "mind" but the "renewing", which means to make new, is in association with the previous word "regeneration", so the writer, was giving to the reader, the idea that all was "renewed". As such, touching that ones: Views, Desires, Plans, Feelings and Purpose. So then, "Mind".

That verse does not SAY that, is my point. Romans 12.2 is a verse for that .

 

[awelight]

I meant the Holy Spirit was not indwelling believers and placing people in the 'BODY' of Jesus . No one was ' in christ ' until After Acts 2

If you can't see the Truth in what that verse says, after I have gone to the trouble to break it down in the Greek and this raises no question as to your personal beliefs, then there is nothing more I can say.

If your Biblical Doctrines are based on ignoring certain Scriptures, then I would have to conclude you are in really bad shape spiritually or you know not God. I say this with all do sadness and humility.

 

[awelight]

That verse does not SAY that, is my point. Romans 12.2 is a verse for that .

Point received.