PREVENIENT GRACE: AN ARMINIAN ERROR

[throughfaith]

... predestined to be conformed ... in future at some later stage.

Yes and this is given after we believe not before. Its for all those who are in Christ.

 

[throughfaith]

Predestined is predestined in all aspects.

... predestined to be conformed ... ( "after we believe" - you're insertion into scripture )

No because it says predestined to be conformed to his image and predestined to the Adoption . Both of these things are the same thing and have not happened yet . Unless your already walking through walls like Jesus .

 

[BenjaminN]

Of course . Only those whom are known as sons are then predestined to glorification. The spirit of adoption is the guarantee that this will take place. This is the destination granted when we are in him .

are to read were ( predestined is in the past - it happened before - only God can predestine)

 

[throughfaith]

Only if we have converted. You cannot leave that out. Otherwise, it is the second death via the LoF.

Why does that even need mentioning ? No unsaved person is predestined to be converted.

 

[BenjaminN]

Yes and this is given after we believe not before. Its for all those who are in Christ.

after to read before ( predestined is in the past - only God can predestine )

 

[throughfaith]

are to read were ( predestined is in the past - it happened before - only God can predestine)

We were not known as sons until we got in Christ

RememberJesus saying " I never knew you in " in Mat 7 .
. John 1.12 . Now we are known. Gal 4
9But now, after that ye have known God, or rather ARE KNOWN OF GOD , how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Only sons are to recieve the manifestation OF sons .

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8

1 John 3:2

“Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.”

 

[throughfaith]

after to read before ( predestined is in the past - only God can predestine )

Predestination is of existing saints to adoption/glorification, not sinners to conversion. (Eph. 1:5, 11; Rom. 8:23, 29-30)

 

[GraceAndTruth]

Strange bedfellows , Arminianism and Calvinism.
“Total Inability” is the belief that all humanity is born incapable of willingly coming to Christ for salvation even in light of the Holy Spirit wrought truth of the Gospel, unless God graciously works to empower the will of lost man (effectually by way of regeneration for the Calvinist, and sufficiently by way of “prevenient grace” for the Arminian).

“Prevenient grace” is simply a term for the grace of God that goes before, prepares the way, enables, assists the sinner’s repentance and faith (conversion). According to classical Calvinism this prevenient grace is always efficacious and given only to the elect through the gospel; it effects conversion. According to classical Arminianism it is an operation of the Holy Spirit that frees the sinner’s will from bondage to sin and convicts, calls, illumines and enables the sinner to respond to the gospel call with repentance and faith (conversion). Calvinists and Arminians agree, against Pelagianism and semi-Pelagianism, that the sinner’s will is so depraved and bound to sin that it cannot respond positively to the gospel call without supernatural grace
Roger Olson.

What say you ?

Excerpts taken from soteriology 101 .

I say you are being led around by your non-discernment nose.
After checking out your soteriology 101 led by some guy named Flowers, I'd also say your guru also has no discernment.
That isnt a FLOWER.......its a STINK WEED. You've set up a thread to show how erudite you are......and it ends up being a bunch of cut and past quotes from your false teaching source.

Ergo....you have no undestanding of historic calvinism.....or even historic arminianism. And by the way, beliefs do not fall into just TWO categories, there are probably more who fall into basic Reformed minus 3 0r 4 points of the tulip which would be prevalent most mainline Baptist churches. All would agree with the P.....once saved always saved.

There is no such thing as "new calvinism"; that is the ploy of cults, to redefine and lie to make their their new definitions and new "theology" sound wiser than what is written as plain as that nose on your face if you had eyes to see it. Happy Guru says......' and OH YES! LOOK WHAT I ALONE HAVE FOUND ...... A NEW TRUTH'. Yes Snake, you are good at asking, 'did God really say..?

When will you people stop being led to damnation by wolves in sheep clothing?
I guess when (or if) God causes you to be born again. 1 Peter 1:3

GET A BIBILE! Read it front to back......line upon line, precept upon precept, book by book , chapter by chapter (IN ORDER) and stop making doctrine by picking and choosing verses out of context, stringing them together as if they supersede the text. And stop
RE-defining words to back up these apostasy teachings. Anyone can make the bible say anything to those who have no knowledge of the Holy to refute them. After all the bible does say "there is no god" (Psalm 14:1)

A wothless person, a wicked man, is one who walks with a false mouth Proverbs 6:12

 

[BenjaminN]

We were not known as sons until we got in Christ

RememberJesus saying " I never knew you in " in Mat 7 .
. John 1.12 . Now we are known. Gal 4
9But now, after that ye have known God, or rather ARE KNOWN OF GOD , how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Only sons are to recieve the manifestation OF sons .

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8

1 John 3:2

“Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.”

Yes in the human timeline, but in God's timeline predestined means, your destined before / pre - Your destination of ultimate arrival, has been predetermined. Only God can predestine.

 

[throughfaith]

I say you are being led around by your non-discernment nose.
After checking out your soteriology 101 led by some guy named Flowers, I'd also say your guru also has no discernment.
That isnt a FLOWER.......its a STINK WEED. You've set up a thread to show how erudite you are......and it ends up being a bunch of cut and past quotes from your false teaching source.

Ergo....you have no undestanding of historic calvinism.....or even historic arminianism. And by the way, beliefs do not fall into just TWO categories, there are probably more who fall into basic Reformed minus 3 0r 4 points of the tulip which would be prevalent most mainline Baptist churches. All would agree with the P.....once saved always saved.

There is no such thing as "new calvinism"; that is the ploy of cults, to redefine and lie to make their their new definitions and new "theology" sound wiser than what is written as plain as that nose on your face if you had eyes to see it. Happy Guru says......' and OH YES! LOOK WHAT I ALONE HAVE FOUND ...... A NEW TRUTH'. Yes Snake, you are good at asking, 'did God really say..?

When will you people stop being led to damnation by wolves in sheep clothing?
I guess when (or if) God causes you to be born again. 1 Peter 1:3

GET A BIBILE! Read it front to back......line upon line, precept upon precept, book by book , chapter by chapter (IN ORDER) and stop making doctrine by picking and choosing verses out of context, stringing them together as if they supersede the text. And stop
RE-defining words to back up these apostasy teachings. Anyone can make the bible say anything to those who have no knowledge of the Holy to refute them. After all the bible does say "there is no god" (Psalm 14:1)

A wothless person, a wicked man, is one who walks with a false mouth Proverbs 6:12

So nothing scriptural to refute what I'm saying ?

 

[BenjaminN]

Predestination is of existing saints to adoption/glorification, not sinners to conversion. (Eph. 1:5, 11; Rom. 8:23, 29-30)

All are sinners, even saints whilst being sanctified.

All saints were predestined yes, by God.

 

[throughfaith]

Yes in the human timeline, but in God's timeline predestined means, your destined before / pre - Your destination of ultimate arrival, has been predetermined. Only God can predestine.

Predestination is of existing saints to adoption/glorification, not sinners to conversion. (Eph. 1:5, 11; Rom. 8:23, 29-30)

“Foreknow” is being known by God in the sense of Gal. 4:9 after conversion and before glorification as if already glorified. It does not refer to any time prior to conversion. (Gal. 4:8-9; Rom. 8:29-30; 1 Pet. 1:2)

 

[throughfaith]

All are sinners, even saints whilst being sanctified.

All saints were predestined yes, by God.

All saints ARE predestined to future glorification. No sinner is predestinated.

 

[throughfaith]

All are sinners, even saints whilst being sanctified.

All saints were predestined yes, by God.

It would have been real easy for Paul to have said " you were predestined to be regenerated " . Which would have been redundant information to tell already regenerated people "

 

[BenjaminN]

It would have been real easy for Paul to have said " you were predestined to be regenerated " . Which would have been redundant information to tell already regenerated people "

Ephesians 1 (ESV)

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

From the grammar, the order of events in a saved persons life:

1. predestined
2. obtained an inheritance
3. you heard the word of truth
4. believed in him
5. sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

 

[Magenta]

Why does that even need mentioning ? No unsaved person is predestined to be converted.

Because:

I see that we are predestined to be conformed is what promise we recieve after we believe . I don't believe anyone is predestined to be converted.

How can we be conformed to the image of Christ without conversion?

We are only conformed to his image at glorification.

Only if we have converted. You cannot leave that out. Otherwise, it is the second death via the LoF.

But, I understand what you are saying, which is: nobody is predestined à la Calvinist view of pre-election.

 

[throughfaith]

Ephesians 1 (ESV)

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

From the grammar, the order of events in a saved persons life:

1. predestined
2. obtained an inheritance
3. you heard the word of truth
4. believed in him
5. sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

So you obtained an inheritance before you became a son in Him ?

Read on to eph 2 and see if you had ANYTHING before you existed . Talk about entitlement lol .

12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
So I believe its .
1) heard the word of truth
2) believed
3) Sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.
4) predestined to Glorification/ inheritance/ adoption / redemption of the body .
All this being blessed with all spiritual blessings only when IN Christ Jesus.
You have it in reverse .

 

[BenjaminN]

So you obtained an inheritance before you became a son in Him ?

Read on to eph 2 and see if you had ANYTHING before you existed . Talk about entitlement lol .

12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
So I believe its .
1) heard the word of truth
2) believed
3) Sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.
4) predestined to Glorification/ inheritance/ adoption / redemption of the body .
All this being blessed with all spiritual blessings only when IN Christ Jesus.
You have it in reverse .

Only a spirit of self, not willing to give all glory to God, will view God's grace bestowed on whom he pleases as entitlement.

Only God's chosen inheritors, by blood or adoption, receive the free gift. He wrote his will long before his chosen ones were even born.

 

[throughfaith]

Ephesians 1 (ESV)

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

From the grammar, the order of events in a saved persons life:

1. predestined
2. obtained an inheritance
3. you heard the word of truth
4. believed in him
5. sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Also remember he's addressing the saints IN him .
Count how many times Paul keeps saying ' in him ' or in whom " in the whole chapter .The blessings are only in him . Were not in him before we believed .
11IN WHOM also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted IN CHRIST .

13¶IN WHOM ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: IN WHOM also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

 

[throughfaith]

Only a spirit of self, not willing to give all glory to God, will view God's grace bestowed on whom he pleases as entitlement.

Only God's chosen inheritors, by blood or adoption, receive the free gift. He wrote his will long before his chosen ones were even born.

Thats the philosophy of the reformed position I realise that . But its not what the verses say .