A saving faith vs a dead faith

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
G

Guojing

Banned
#81
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
#81
BenjaminN said:
Is these scriptures the extent of it, that brought you to your strange view that God's grace is only a temporary dispensation granting lawlessness salvation, where lawful good works prepared by God is not the fruit of faith (which is the gift of God in his grace)?

od.
Click to expand...
Romans 4:4-5 states that if God grants salvation based on law keeping, then it will be based on you earning it, and not by grace.

However Good works will grant you eternal rewards in heaven, as stated by Paul in that 1 cor 3 passage I was using, so yes, it would be silly not to do any works.

I will add one more caveat, your works must be based on the gospel that Paul taught us and not the gospel of the kingdom, as Paul reminds us in 1 cor 3:10
 
B

BenjaminN

Well-known member
#82
Oct 7, 2020
1,504
307
83
#82
Guojing said:
Romans 4:4-5 states that if God grants salvation based on law keeping, then it will be based on you earning it, and not by grace.

However Good works will grant you eternal rewards in heaven, as stated by Paul in that 1 cor 3 passage I was using, so yes, it would be silly not to do any works.

I will add one more caveat, your works must be based on the gospel that Paul taught us and not the gospel of the kingdom, as Paul reminds us in 1 cor 3:10
Click to expand...
Agreed. Throughout the ages, works followed salvation, salvation has never followed works.

Salvation since the beginning of time, until the end of time is by grace, through faith, which is the gift of God, FOR good lawful works prepared by God... (Eph 2:8-10).

You however say there is a dispensational change, in how God grants salvation, according to you differently from time to time, through the ages? Please explain by scripture, how you could come to that conclusion.
 
B

BenjaminN

Well-known member
#83
Oct 7, 2020
1,504
307
83
#83

Ephesians 1 (ESV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.


Revelation 13 (ESV)

7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, 8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.
 
B

BenjaminN

Well-known member
#84
Oct 7, 2020
1,504
307
83
#84
By grace, through his received faith, which was the gift of God, Abraham received his gift of salvation, FOR good lawful works prepared by God, and he followed in obedience, following his calling received from God... (Eph 2:8-10).


Genesis 12 (ESV)

1 Now the Lord said to Abram, "Go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you. 2 And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."
 
B

BenjaminN

Well-known member
#85
Oct 7, 2020
1,504
307
83
#85
Revelation 21 (ESV)

9 Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, "Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb." 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, 12 It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed— 23 And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24 By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, 25 and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there. 26 They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations.
 
J

Jackson123

Senior Member
#91
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
#91
Guojing said:
I was referring to the non Jews 2000 years ago
Click to expand...
There were 2 groups of Jews 2000 years ago, non Christian Jews that was in still us font believe the cross and Christian Jews
Wich one ?

Was Jews 2000 years ago experience 7 years tribulation?
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#93
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
113
#93
BenjaminN said:
Agreed. Throughout the ages, works followed salvation, salvation has never followed works.

Salvation since the beginning of time, until the end of time is by grace, through faith, which is the gift of God, FOR good lawful works prepared by God... (Eph 2:8-10).
Click to expand...
Obedience does not earn us grace, but obedience either follows grace or the grace is dead.

Acts 5:32 God has given (the Holy Spirit) to those who obey Him.
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#94
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
#94
BenjaminN said:
Agreed. Throughout the ages, works followed salvation, salvation has never followed works.

Salvation since the beginning of time, until the end of time is by grace, through faith, which is the gift of God, FOR good lawful works prepared by God... (Eph 2:8-10).

You however say there is a dispensational change, in how God grants salvation, according to you differently from time to time, through the ages? Please explain by scripture, how you could come to that conclusion.
Click to expand...
Salvation is always by grace thru faith.

Faith is man obeying what God commands.

In time past, God commands various things, as stated in Hebrews 11.

Abel had to offer the correct sacrifice, Noah had to build an ark, Abraham had to leave the land he came from and go to an unknown land.

But now, we are commanded to rest from all works and put our faith in Christ finished work on the cross (Romans 4:5)

In all cases, once we obey God commands, he grant us salvation.
 
B

BenjaminN

Well-known member
#95
Oct 7, 2020
1,504
307
83
#95
Guojing said:
Salvation is always by grace thru faith.

Faith is man obeying what God commands.

In time past, God commands various things, as stated in Hebrews 11.

Abel had to offer the correct sacrifice, Noah had to build an ark, Abraham had to leave the land he came from and go to an unknown land.

But now, we are commanded to rest from all works and put our faith in Christ finished work on the cross (Romans 4:5)

In all cases, once we obey God commands, he grant us salvation.
Click to expand...

Agreed with those not striked-through.

Where do you find this notion of yours in scripture: "But now, we are commanded to rest from all works"?


Ephesians 2 (ESV)

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.


James 2 (ESV)

17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#96
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
#96
BenjaminN said:
Agreed with those not striked-through.

Where do you find this notion of yours in scripture: "But now, we are commanded to rest from all works"?


Ephesians 2 (ESV)

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.


James 2 (ESV)

17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Click to expand...
Was referring to for salvation, works are rewards in heaven but only if they are build on gospel
Taught by Paul, as mentioned
 
B

BenjaminN

Well-known member
#97
Oct 7, 2020
1,504
307
83
#97
Guojing said:
Was referring to for salvation, works are rewards in heaven but only if they are build on gospel
Taught by Paul, as mentioned
Click to expand...
Agreed.

BenjaminN said:
Agreed. Throughout the ages, works followed salvation, salvation has never followed works.

Salvation since the beginning of time, until the end of time is by grace, through faith, which is the gift of God, FOR good lawful works prepared by God... (Eph 2:8-10).
Click to expand...

Ephesians 2 (ESV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.


John 3 (ESV)

16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God."
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#98
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
113
#98
Guojing said:
Salvation is always by grace thru faith.

Faith is man obeying what God commands.

In time past, God commands various things, as stated in Hebrews 11.

Abel had to offer the correct sacrifice, Noah had to build an ark, Abraham had to leave the land he came from and go to an unknown land.

But now, we are commanded to rest from all works and put our faith in Christ finished work on the cross (Romans 4:5)

In all cases, once we obey God commands, he grant us salvation.
Click to expand...
And God commands us to obey. It is not the beginning of salvation, faith in Christ, in what Christ did for us and in His commands, is first. The obedience follows.

We are asked to be perfect, but we always have a safety net for our imperfections.
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#99
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
#99
Blik said:
And God commands us to obey. It is not the beginning of salvation, faith in Christ, in what Christ did for us and in His commands, is first. The obedience follows.

We are asked to be perfect, but we always have a safety net for our imperfections.
Click to expand...
For this dispensation, we are commanded to rely on the imputed righteousness of his Son in the cross. (Romans 5:17-19).

It honors what Christ did on the cross Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
 
B

BenjaminN

Well-known member
#100
Oct 7, 2020
1,504
307
83
#100
Guojing said:
For this dispensation, we are commanded to rely on the imputed righteousness of his Son in the cross. (Romans 5:17-19).

It honors what Christ did on the cross Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Click to expand...
"Dispensationalism" is wrong, God transcends time, is eternal and almighty and has always, and will always grant salvation by his grace.

God's salvation throughout the ages has always been by grace, and never, ever, in any "dispensation", by self-righteousness.

The imputed righteousness of his Son on the cross is for those who received salvation of all who ever lived, currently live, or will live - it is not a "dispensation", but an eternal truth, it transcends time, and our names have been written in the book of salvation before the foundation of the world. How do you think was Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and all the prophets saved to be in God's Kingdom, other than the sacrificial offering of God's son Christ Yeshua? The sacrificial offering of animals could never pay like-for-like for any man's sins. The sacrificial offerings pointed to what God's son Christ Yeshua would accomplish for us on the cross. There will even again be remembrance sacrificial offerings in future, in Ezekiel's prophesied temple, again pointing back to what God's son Christ Yeshua accomplished already for us on the cross (Ezekiel 46:20).


Luke 13 (ESV)

28 In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out.


Ephesians 1 (ESV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Revelation 13 (ESV)

7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, 8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.


Ezekiel 46 (ESV)

20 And he said to me, "This is the place where the priests shall boil the guilt offering and the sin offering, and where they shall bake the grain offering, in order not to bring them out into the outer court and so transmit holiness to the people."
 
You must log in or register to reply here.