The Law of God - who is it meant for and why?

[BenjaminN]

How do you conclude Hebrews was definitely written by Paul?

The title of Hebrews itself tells you it is not written to the Body of Christ.

The very first verse also states the audience.

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

tells you the audience had fathers, in time past, spoken to by God by the prophets, which again could not mean gentiles.

The Body of Christ consist of more than non-Israelite Gentiles. The Body of Christ consists of both believing Jews and Gentiles, and Ephraimite-Israelite Gentiles alike.


Hebrews 1 (ESV)

1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

 

[BenjaminN]

The Body of Christ consist of more than non-Israelite Gentiles. The Body of Christ consists of both believing Jews and Gentiles, and Ephraimite-Israelite Gentiles alike.

Revelation 21 (ESV)

9 Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, "Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb." 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12 It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed— 13 on the east three gates, on the north three gates, on the south three gates, and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

 

[Guojing]

The Body of Christ consist of more than non-Israelite Gentiles. The Body of Christ consists of both believing Jews and Gentiles, and Ephraimite-Israelite Gentiles alike.


Hebrews 1 (ESV)

1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

In the Body of Christ, there is neither Jew nor Gentile.

So, when you see a letter called "Hebrews", do you think it will be directed to the Body of Christ?

 

[BenjaminN]

In the Body of Christ, there is neither Jew nor Gentile.

So, when you see a letter called "Hebrews", do you think it will be directed to the Body of Christ?

Yes it is directed to a very significant portion of the Body of Christ, ie. directed to Christ Yeshua believing Ephraimite-Israelites among the Gentiles, and to Christ Yeshua believing Judahite-Israelites among the Jews. It would not be directed to that portion of the Body of Christ that is Christ Yeshua believing non-Israelite Gentiles, but it may also be of value to them, to see the bigger picture of the whole of God's eternal word, its promises and its fulfilment.

 

[JaumeJ]

What makes anyone teach that true Jews do not make up the Body of Messiah? It is quite amazing how many profess to believe Jesus-Yeshua yet reject Who He was and Is.

 

[Guojing]

Yes it is directed to a very significant portion of the Body of Christ, ie. directed to Christ Yeshua believing Ephraimite-Israelites among the Gentiles, and to Christ Yeshua believing Judahite-Israelites among the Jews. It would not be directed to that portion of the Body of Christ that is Christ Yeshua believing non-Israelite Gentiles, but it may also be of value to them, to see the bigger picture of the whole of God's eternal word, its promises and its fulfilment.

You don't understand the phrase "there is neither Jew nor Gentile" means?

 

[BenjaminN]

You don't understand the phrase "there is neither Jew nor Gentile" means?

We are all of the Commonwealth of Israel. So does the book of Hebrews apply to you?

If Paul says there is neither man nor woman in the Body of Christ, you do not stop being a man or a woman, but both are equal in the Body of Christ, as Jew of Gentile does not stop being Jew or Gentile, but both as believers are equal in the Body of Christ.


Ephesians 2 (ESV)

13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.

 

[Guojing]

We are all of the Commonwealth of Israel. So does the book of Hebrews apply to you?

If Paul says there is neither man nor woman in the Body of Christ, you do not stop being a man or a woman, but both are equal in the Body of Christ, as Jew of Gentile does not stop being Jew or Gentile, but both as believers are equal in the Body of Christ.

The Body of Christ has a separate destiny from the Commonwealth of Israel.

I take it you don't subscribe to the pre-tribulation rapture of the Body of Christ?

 

[BenjaminN]

The Body of Christ has a separate destiny from the Commonwealth of Israel.

I take it you don't subscribe to the pre-tribulation rapture of the Body of Christ?

Ephesians 2 (ESV)
11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called "the uncircumcision" by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

With regards to your question of the rapture, you are off-topic, and I'm not going to derail this thread by responding, we had our discussion in a different thread - see the thread referencing the Post-tribulation rapture, and post your question about the rapture there, for light to be shed.

 

[Guojing]

Ephesians 2 (ESV)
11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called "the uncircumcision" by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

With regards to your question of the rapture, you are off-topic, and I'm not going to derail this thread by responding, we had our discussion in a different thread - see the thread referencing the Post-tribulation rapture, and post your question about the rapture there, for light to be shed.

Yes, in time past, Israel was God's favored nation, so we gentiles were not part of Israel and hence had no hope in the world.

But now, Israel has fallen in the eyes of God, God considered the nation his enemy now (Romans 11:28), so that he can extend grace to us.

Thus, to say that the body of Christ is "all of the Commonwealth of Israel" is silly.

But if you hold to that doctrine, then naturally, you will think the Body of Christ will be going thru the Tribulation, that was why I asked. You can just answer with a yes or no, and we can end it there.

 

[BenjaminN]

Yes, in time past, Israel was God's favored nation, so we gentiles were not part of Israel and hence had no hope in the world.

But now, Israel has fallen in the eyes of God, God considered the nation his enemy now (Romans 11:28), so that he can extend grace to us.

Thus, to say that the body of Christ is "all of the Commonwealth of Israel" is silly.

But if you hold to that doctrine, then naturally, you will think the Body of Christ will be going thru the Tribulation, that was why I asked. You can just answer with a yes or no, and we can end it there.

Romans 11 (ESV)

7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day." 25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; 27 "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

 

[Guojing]

Romans 11 (ESV)

7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day." 25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; 27 "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

Yes, that will happen at the end of the Tribulation. Your point is?

 

[BenjaminN]

Yes, that will happen at the end of the Tribulation. Your point is?

Before the Tribulation:


Revelation 7 (ESV)

1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on earth or sea or against any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, 3 saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads." 4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

After the Tribulation:


Revelation 7 (ESV)

9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" 13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, "Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?" 14 I said to him, "Sir, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

[Guojing]

Before the Tribulation:


Revelation 7 (ESV)

1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on earth or sea or against any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, 3 saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads." 4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

After the Tribulation:


Revelation 7 (ESV)

9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" 13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, "Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?" 14 I said to him, "Sir, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Yep, one who thinks the Body of Christ is Israel will have a certain interpretation of this passage.

 

[BenjaminN]

Yep, one who thinks the Body of Christ is Israel will have a certain interpretation of this passage.

The Body of Christ does not consist of Israel only, Christ Yeshua believing Israel is part of the Body of Christ, just as non-Israel believing Gentiles, from every (including Israel) tribe, tongue and nation is also part of the Body of Christ.

 

[Guojing]

The Body of Christ does not consist of Israel only, Christ Yeshua believing Israel is part of the Body of Christ, just as non-Israel believing Gentiles, from every (including Israel) tribe, tongue and nation is also part of the Body of Christ.

As I said, if you believe that, then naturally you will also believe that the Body of Christ will also go thru the Tribulation.

 

[BenjaminN]

As I said, if you believe that, then naturally you will also believe that the Body of Christ will also go thru the Tribulation.

The complete Body of Christ (Gentiles and non-Gentile Israelites) of the last generation, before the next and final return of Christ Yeshua, is the elect going through the great tribulation yes.


Matthew 24 (ESV)

14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left. 42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.

 

[JaumeJ]

What I have to share is nothing new for the story of it is in the Bible but once, in my sleep, a message was given me.

It said> "Now, the Children of Israel, while they were in the wilderness, were disobedient, and by their disobedience salvation was gained by the nations."

I understood this beyond the words alone, but not in words. The spirit within gave reason to the w3ords. Praise our Father Yan, amen.

 

[luigi]

The Laws are meant for unbelievers of love, truth, and justice, which are spiritual, and therefore meant for worldly individuals.

 

[Guojing]

The complete Body of Christ (Gentiles and non-Gentile Israelites) of the last generation, before the next and final return of Christ Yeshua, is the elect going through the great tribulation yes.


Matthew 24 (ESV)

14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left. 42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.

Yep, the doctrines we each hold are all inter-connected to certain fundamental axioms.