Lordship salvation vs. "easy believism"

[laymen]

The original timetable set in the OT was that Israel the nation is to be saved first, then all Jews will be priests that will bring the entire world, the gentile nations to God, as stated in Zechariah 8. But there was another plan hidden in God since the beginning of time, which I will bring in later.

That original plan required Israel to repent and believe that Jesus is their promised Messiah, which they rejected.

Paul explained it well in Romans 11

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

God deliberately made it easy for us former Gentiles to be saved, because the Jews kept rejecting God, in order to provoke the Jews to jealousy.

Israel rejected God the Father in the OT by ignoring or stoning their prophets, the last being John the Baptist (Luke 16:16, Acts 7:52).
Israel rejected God the Son in the 4 Gospels by putting him on the cross (Acts 2:36)
Israel rejected God the Holy Spirit in Acts by stoning Stephen who was full of the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:55).

With the entire Trinity being rejected by the Jews, the last one to me is blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, which is an unforgivable sin under the Law of Moses, God finally unveiled his hidden plan to save the Gentiles independent of the Jews, a plan he had kept hidden since the world began (Ephesians 3:9).

Once you realized this, Ephesians 2 and 3 take on totally new meaning, and you as a former Gentile, will really praise God the Father for his wonderful plan. And you will not be upset that Jesus was only speaking to the Jews in the 4 Gospels.

Good thing this happen::
Act 6:7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

The Holy Bible: King James Version. (2009). (Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version., Ac 6:7). Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

 

[Guojing]

Good thing this happen::
Act 6:7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

The Holy Bible: King James Version. (2009). (Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version., Ac 6:7). Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

Yes, at Acts 6, we were still waiting for the leaders of Israel, the Sanhedrin, to repent and accept Jesus.

God's view to Israel was always, as Israel leaders go, so goes the nation 1 Kings 15:34

 

[throughfaith]

We were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blame before Him in love, having been predestinated (aorist participle)unto the adoption of children...we were predestinated unto the adoption of sons when we were chosen in Him...which was before the foundation of the world.

We were also foreknow of God. And those God foreknows, He predestined. And those God predestines, He calls and those He calls, He justified, and those He justified, He glorifies

And we are elect according to the foreknowledge of God through the sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience and by the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus

Awesome stuff

What do you have left to 'hope 'for and be assured of if your 'predestination 'was to be converted? Your not predestioned to the redemption of the body as I believe the bible is saying . So what guarantee do you have you will be Adopted later as per Rom 8.23 ?

 

[throughfaith]

We were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blame before Him in love, having been predestinated (aorist participle)unto the adoption of children...we were predestinated unto the adoption of sons when we were chosen in Him...which was before the foundation of the world.

We were also foreknow of God. And those God foreknows, He predestined. And those God predestines, He calls and those He calls, He justified, and those He justified, He glorifies

And we are elect according to the foreknowledge of God through the sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience and by the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus

Awesome stuff

If you start Romans 8 with verse one and keep reading ,you will get to 23 and then your confronted with the context of the entire chapter . The focus is the Adoption . In light of the Adoption to come ,the present distress and suffering ( physically) is not to be compared with the Glory to come in light of the fact one day we will recieve the Adoption . The Adoption not conversion is the comfort. They are already saved . They don't need to be constantly told " hey God chose you to be converted '" great ! were converted why the suffering then?

 

[Infinite_Ark]

Yes, as I said, the world was to be saved thru Jesus Christ.

But you can understand that John 3:16 does not mean that Israel does not have the rights of first refusal to Jesus right?

Jesus himself told the Gentile lady who tried to seek him "ahead of time" in Mark 7:27, that the children, which refers to Jewish children are to be fed first, before the dogs, which was a term used by Israel to describe Gentiles, can partake of Christ.

27 But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.

Jesus himself understood the OT prophetic timetable, Israel must be given the priority to decide whether or not to accept Jesus first, before the Gentiles could decide.

I found that passage. Jesus healed the daughter of that particular dog.
Wouldn't God have known the Jews would reject Jesus? Why send Jesus on a fools errand then?
Do you think no gentile was saved before Jesus?

 

[Guojing]

I found that passage. Jesus healed the daughter of that particular dog.
Wouldn't God have known the Jews would reject Jesus? Why send Jesus on a fools errand then?
Do you think no gentile was saved before Jesus?

Yes, when God made Abraham and his descendants the focus of his blessings, here is what was said in Genesis 22

17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Verse 18 is the key verse in understand how God related to Gentiles in the Old Testament, as well as the 4 Gospels.

For the Roman Centurion case, the key verse found in Luke was

3 And when he heard of Jesus, he sent unto him the elders of the Jews, beseeching him that he would come and heal his servant.

4 And when they came to Jesus, they besought him instantly, saying, That he was worthy for whom he should do this:

5 For he loveth our nation, and he hath built us a synagogue.

The Lord Jesus, without hesitation, immediately agreed to his request because he has blessed the Jews, and the Abrahamic covenant allows the blessing to then go to him.

As for the woman, she did not deeds for the Jews but she wisely said in Mark

28 "Yes, Lord," she replied, "but even the dogs under the table eat the children's crumbs." 29 Then he told her, "For such a reply, you may go; the demon has left your daughter."

Mark has this important detail which I highlighted in bold. That lady made the correct analogy that even the dogs, a term used by the Jews to describe Gentiles, could be blessed with the crumbs falling from the Jewish children's bread. She could have complained to Jesus that he was insulting her but she chose the correct answer by submitting herself to the Jews

Thus Jesus healed her because her faith allowed her to be blessed, thru the Jews, as promised to Abraham.

Perhaps you might understand my point above better by contrasting the above with Jesus approach to Blind Bartimaeus, in Matthew 10

46 Now they came to Jericho. As He went out of Jericho with His disciples and a great multitude, blind Bartimaeus, the son of Timaeus, sat by the road begging. 47 And when he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to cry out and say, “Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me!”
48 Then many warned him to be quiet; but he cried out all the more, “Son of David, have mercy on me!” 49 So Jesus stood still and commanded him to be called.
Then they called the blind man, saying to him, “Be of good cheer. Rise, He is calling you.” 50 And throwing aside his garment, he rose and came to Jesus. 51 So Jesus answered and said to him, “What do you want Me to do for you?” The blind man said to Him, [a]“Rabboni, that I may receive my sight.”52 Then Jesus said to him, “Go your way; your faith has [b]made you well.” And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus on the road.

One can’t help but to notice the contrast in Jesus’s treatment in the two cases of people who exhibited faith. Both the Canaanite lady and Blind Bartimaeus called him the Son of David, which is the proper term for Jesus. Both of them have faith, one might even argue that the Canaanite lady had lesser unbelief than Blind Bartimaeus.

But because the latter was a Jew, Jesus, almighty God, actually stood still and healed him without any hesitation. But the lady, who is a Gentile, had to further go thru so many tests.

My point is not that Jesus was being deliberately cruel to one but kind to other. Like Paul himself stated Jesus’s mission on Earth, he stated in Romans 15 (KJV)

8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

As for your last point about gentiles being saved before Paul, yes, as I have explained elsewhere here, gentiles had to be saved thru joining the nation Israel, see https://christianchat.com/threads/lordship-salvation-vs-easy-believism.195373/post-4407928

 

[Guojing]

And to provide scripture reference in the OT, notice Deut 23, why did God pronounced a curse on Ammonite, and Moabite

An Ammonite, or Moabite shall not enter into the Congregation of the Lord, even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the Congregation of the Lord for euer,

4 Because they met you not with bread and with water in the way when ye came forth out of Egypt, and because they hired against thee Balaam the son of Beor of Pethor of Mesopotamia, to curse thee.

The same point was repeated in Nehemiah 13:1-2. God was that serious regarding gentile nations who fail to bless Israel but try to harm them instead.

 

[Moses_Young]

A Canaanite Woman’s Faith
21 After going out from there, Jesus went to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A[x] Canaanite woman from that area came[y] and cried out,[z] “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David! My daughter is horribly demon-possessed!” 23 But he did not answer her a word. Then[aa] his disciples came and begged him,[ab] “Send her away, because she keeps on crying out after us.” 24 So[ac] he answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 25 But she came and bowed down[ad] before him and said,[ae] “Lord, help me!” 26 “It is not right[af] to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs,”[ag] he said.[ah] 27 “Yes, Lord,” she replied,[ai] “but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table.” 28 Then[aj] Jesus answered her, “Woman,[ak] your faith is great! Let what you want be done for you.” And her daughter was healed from that hour.

What separated the pagans aka Gentiles from God's sheep? Circumcision.

Maybe I'm missing your point, but the Canaanite woman clearly couldn't be any more circumcised than she was already born. Indeed, the same applies for all Old Testament women, whom God still favoured and considered women of faith. Even the Old Testament men before Abraham were not circumcised. Circumcision (on the eighth day) for males was a sign of belonging to God, but the circumcision came as a result of faith, as did all the other symbols of obedience, such as Daniel continuing to pray to God in defiance of the king's edict, and Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego refusing the choice food from the king's table. A number of nations in the Old Testament also practiced circumcision (e.g. Egyptians), but these were not treated as God's sheep.

Gentiles were not those sheep because they were not in circumcision/covenant.

Some gentiles became sheep by faith, and part of the demonstration of that faith was circumcision. Ruth was a gentile who became a sheep of Israel, but it was her faith that counted. She could not use circumcision as a sign of her faith. God's salvation through faith was open to all He called, including gentiles. Look at Naaman.

Ah, but don't dare think that means Jesus came to save just the Jews as some would hope to teach you. The first "Christians" were Jews. That doesn't remove the Gentiles from God's plan of salvation though. No, not at all. Remember Paul's teaching about the circumcision of the heart. )

Agreed. Even physical circumcision was not enough to ensure circumcision of the heart, and Moses had to emphasise to the physically circumcised men of Israel:

Deut 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

(Here's a fun tidbit. Atheists most commonly, and others of course, insist America was not grounded in any way in Christian/Biblical values from our inception, founding, as a country. In 2020 America, unless you note it on your intake form when in labor, your male child is circumcised. Not to establish God's covenant as in the OT but for health reasons. Still....)

Probably not so much fun for the child. But hard for atheists to argue where this came from, as who is going to be the first one to practice it without something like a divine commandment from God, as was given to Abraham? Also, the 8th day is said to be the best day for it, due to blood clotting vitamin K levels being at their peak at 8 days.

 

[Guojing]

God's salvation through faith was open to all He called, including gentiles. Look at Naaman.

So did Paul meant what he said in Ephesians 2:11-12.

Were gentiles really "having no hope, and without God in the world" in time past?

 

[Moses_Young]

So did Paul meant what he said in Ephesians 2:11-12.

Were gentiles really "having no hope, and without God in the world" in time past?

Without Jesus, are we all not without hope? Past, present or future.

 

[Guojing]

Without Jesus, are we all not without hope? Past, present or future.

But we gentiles were separated from Christ, even when he first came during the 4 gospels time period, unlike Israel (Matthew 15:24).

You disagree that is what Paul was saying, when he mentioned Christ in vs 12?

 

[soggykitten]

Interesting that the preacher or in training pastor hasn't commented on this matter of the Jews had to deny Jesus before the Gentiles were given salvation. And all this happening within the realm of Omniscient God?

 

[Guojing]

Interesting that the preacher or in training pastor hasn't commented on this matter of the Jews had to deny Jesus before the Gentiles were given salvation. And all this happening within the realm of Omniscient God?

God knew Adam and Eve would sin too, before it happened right? Omniscience does not mean predestination.

Israel must be given the rights of first refusal to Jesus, before the gentiles could be reached by the risen Christ, so that Israel is without excuse. (Romans 10:14-21)

 

[soggykitten]

God knew Adam and Eve would sin too, before it happened right? Omniscience does not mean predestination.

It does in the matter of the God of our bible telling us he predestined all things according to his will and plan. Yes, it does mean predestination.

Israel must be given the rights of first refusal to Jesus, before the gentiles could be reached by the risen Christ, so that Israel is without excuse. (Romans 10:14-21)

Jesus healed gentiles before his crucifixion.
Given God tells us all things are predestined according to his will. If what you claim were true God did it. It was his plan, according to his will that the Jews would reject him.

The Outcome of Jesus’ Public Ministry Foretold
37 Although Jesus[bx] had performed[by] so many miraculous signs before them, they still refused to believe in him, 38 so that the word[bz] of the prophet Isaiah would be fulfilled. He said,[ca] “Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord[cb] been revealed?”[cc] 39 For this reason they could not believe,[cd] because again Isaiah said,
40 “He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their heart,[ce]
so that they would not see with their eyes
and understand with their heart,[cf]
and turn to me,[cg] and I would heal them.”[ch]
41 Isaiah said these things because he saw Christ’s[ci] glory, and spoke about him.
42 Nevertheless, even among the rulers[cj] many believed in him, but because of the Pharisees[ck] they would not confess Jesus to be the Christ,[cl] so that they would not be put out of[cm] the synagogue.[cn] 43 For they loved praise[co] from men more than praise[cp] from God.
Jesus’ Final Public Words
44 But Jesus shouted out,[cq] “The one who believes in me does not believe in me, but in the one who sent me,[cr] 45 and the one who sees me sees the one who sent me.[cs] 46 I have come as a light into the world, so that everyone who believes in me should not remain in darkness. 47 If anyone[ct] hears my words and does not obey them,[cu] I do not judge him. For I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world.[cv] 48 The one who rejects me and does not accept[cw] my words has a judge;[cx] the word[cy] I have spoken will judge him at the last day. 49 For I have not spoken from my own authority,[cz] but the Father himself who sent me has commanded me[da] what I should say and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is eternal life.[db] Thus the things I say, I say just as the Father has told me.”[dc]





"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself" John 12:32

 

[Infinite_Ark]

It does in the matter of the God of our bible telling us he predestined all things according to his will and plan. Yes, it does mean predestination.

Jesus healed gentiles before his crucifixion.
Given God tells us all things are predestined according to his will. If what you claim were true God did it. It was his plan, according to his will that the Jews would reject him.

The Outcome of Jesus’ Public Ministry Foretold
37 Although Jesus[bx] had performed[by] so many miraculous signs before them, they still refused to believe in him, 38 so that the word[bz] of the prophet Isaiah would be fulfilled. He said,[ca] “Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord[cb] been revealed?”[cc] 39 For this reason they could not believe,[cd] because again Isaiah said,
40 “He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their heart,[ce]
so that they would not see with their eyes
and understand with their heart,[cf]
and turn to me,[cg] and I would heal them.”[ch]
41 Isaiah said these things because he saw Christ’s[ci] glory, and spoke about him.
42 Nevertheless, even among the rulers[cj] many believed in him, but because of the Pharisees[ck] they would not confess Jesus to be the Christ,[cl] so that they would not be put out of[cm] the synagogue.[cn] 43 For they loved praise[co] from men more than praise[cp] from God.
Jesus’ Final Public Words
44 But Jesus shouted out,[cq] “The one who believes in me does not believe in me, but in the one who sent me,[cr] 45 and the one who sees me sees the one who sent me.[cs] 46 I have come as a light into the world, so that everyone who believes in me should not remain in darkness. 47 If anyone[ct] hears my words and does not obey them,[cu] I do not judge him. For I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world.[cv] 48 The one who rejects me and does not accept[cw] my words has a judge;[cx] the word[cy] I have spoken will judge him at the last day. 49 For I have not spoken from my own authority,[cz] but the Father himself who sent me has commanded me[da] what I should say and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is eternal life.[db] Thus the things I say, I say just as the Father has told me.”[dc]





"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself" John 12:32

Hi again.
Can I just tell you this. Don't let this back and forth upset you or take it so seriously you think to be led to believe what is being said about you not being saved were it not for the Jews denying Jesus.
That's a bunch of silly talk like so much else in the world today.

Take a minute and remember Jews followed Jesus. Who was he talking to in the sermon on the mount if not the Jews who followed him there? The apostles baptized Jews and anyone who held faith in Christ. Jews and non-Jews existed together where Jesus walked. Because those lands were ruled by pagan Rome. It wasn't a matter of segregation. Jews and non-Jews lived together in the lands.

They may have had communities set apart but if an itinerate Rabbi made news talking about God and healing blind people, demon possessed people, making dead people to live again, everyone would have paid attention. Those were the things the Roman pantheon of deities were purported to do in legend. People, all people, in that age in that area where it was happening would have got the news and come to see what was going on.

Jesus apostles were Jews remember. That means they heard him and followed him. Jesus was born into a family of Jews remember. Jesus taught in the temple when he was a child. Jesus was followed from the time he was that little boy teaching from the scrolls unto his adulthood. And he was followed by Jews. And no one can say non-Jews were not counted in that number of followers. Or in that number attending the sermon on the mount or his other public open air teachings.
Don't forget all that Jesus said and did for Jews and non-Jews, gentiles, alike.

 

[Budman]

How do you explain 1 John 1:9 which says if we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive our sins?

Yet another verse taken out of context.

The target audience John is speaking about are unbelievers. John appeals to those who do not have "the truth" in them (1 John 1:8) and do not have "His word" in them (1 John 1:10). Unlike 2 John 1:1-2 that tells us we believers do have the truth in us forever.

At the beginning of the chapter John notes that many of those he is writing to do not yet have fellowship with other believers or with God the Father, or with Jesus Christ. They are not regenerate, not born of God, not members of the body of Christ. He says: "what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ" (1 John 1:3).

The verse is an evangelistic appeal to early Gnostic heretics. John was simply urging them to come to their senses regarding the reality of sin. The Gnostics claimed that even if sin were a reality, it only occurs in the physical realm, not the spiritual. Therefore, sin is unimportant. As a result, many Gnostics claimed to have no sin (1 John 1:8) or claimed to have never sinned (1 John 1:10).

If they would admit their sinfulness (instead of completely denying it), then God would forgive them and cleanse them "from all unrighteousness."

John was not writing about progressive forgiveness, one sin at a time, doled out in installments from God. John was speaking of the very same "once for all" forgiveness that permeates the entire New Testament.

 

[Budman]

The fact that we fail every day, (which we do), does not allow us to ignore 2 Timothy 2:19, Ephesians 4:22-24, Colossians 3:5-14.

We are to obey those passages to the glory of God.

...and just because sanctification is a gradual process, doesn’t mean we throw in the towel. We strive, fail, get up and strive again, and in the process, we GROW

A baby will fall many times before it learns to walk.

Those regard service, not salvation. We are never out of fellowship with God - nor could we ever be.

Should Christians live holy lives? Absolutely. But yet again, we are already totally forgiven. We are perfect, holy, and righteous. It is finished. No repeat necessary.

The reasons a Christian shouldn't sin are because sin is repulsive, it's ugly, it's awful. It doesn't fulfill. We aren't made for sin, and it will never make us happy.

Though we sin, we will never be more forgiven than we are right now.

 

[Budman]

If a Christian has "zero sins attributed to them" as you say

When a Christian tells a lie or commits murder etc.... as long as your "a christian" are those not sin? Does God redefine those actions depending on who is committing them?

To that I would ask "what sin?"

God said He remembers or sins "no more" (Hebrews 10:17)

We have been cleansed from all sin. (1 John 1:7)

We have been forgiven all our sins (Colossians 2:13)

God does not count sin against us (Romans 4:8)

We are without blemish and free from all accusation (Colossians 1:22)

There is no condemnation left for us (Romans 8:1)

We have been justified from all things (Acts 13:38-39)

Our sins have been paid in full. Once, for all time, no repeat needed. Period. (Romans 5:18)

 

[Budman]

Thank for your respons.
I don't know what exactly you believe on that teaching.
One of my friend believe no matter what you do after conversion, will not make you loose your salvation. So he steal money from his credit card, because he believe God die for his sin.

I am not expert in theology, but seem to me any teaching that encourage doing sin is not inline with the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Jesus want us to be like Him, not stealing or murder.
To me the teaching osas open the door to do sin.

So, you've stopped sinning? Do you lust? Tell a lie? Hate? Do wrong when you know to do right?

Look down. You're in the same boat. Same as the rest of us.

 

[Budman]

So Jesus has it wrong about asking forgiveness ?

“And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.

And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭11:1-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Or John he had it wrong too ?

“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1:8-10‬ ‭

Seems like it’s a good idea to repent and actually be sorry when transgress which is why one would ask forgiveness but That’s more according to what the Bible has to say about confessing sin and not so much an interpretation.

We should try to come to the understandings in scripture like confessing our sins and asking forgiveness in prayer . As the lord taught also we should forgive others like he taught

“And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭11:25-26‬ ‭

that’s the Son of God teaching about God the Father . Believing the Lord is always a good idea

See my above post on 1 John.

Again, I ask: Have all of our sins been forgiven or not? Are we completely cleansed, or not? Does God remember our sins, or not? Are we completely forgiven now, for forever, or not?