Sinning against the holy spirit
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Sinner is saved by regeneration, not atonement. (Tit. 3:5)
Glorification is what’s limited, not atonement. (Rom. 3:23; 8:17-30)
When Christ said, “It is finished,” on the cross, everyone was still in their sins as per 1 Cor. 15:17.
Atonement is one component of many components in salvation. It alone is not what saves. (Tit. 3:5; Rom. 5:10)
Atonement is a prerequisite for salvation, not the execution of it. (Rom. 5, 8; 2 Cor. 5; Tit. 3:5).
The Atonement must be received. (Rom. 5:11, 17; Jn. 1:12; 1 Cor. 15:1-4)
The Atonement does not glorify anyone. (Rom. 8)
Glorification is what’s limited, not atonement. (Rom. 3:23; 8:17-30)
When Christ said, “It is finished,” on the cross, everyone was still in their sins as per 1 Cor. 15:17.
Atonement is one component of many components in salvation. It alone is not what saves. (Tit. 3:5; Rom. 5:10)
Atonement is a prerequisite for salvation, not the execution of it. (Rom. 5, 8; 2 Cor. 5; Tit. 3:5).
The Atonement must be received. (Rom. 5:11, 17; Jn. 1:12; 1 Cor. 15:1-4)
The Atonement does not glorify anyone. (Rom. 8)
L
that verse has nothing to do...actually less than nothing to do, with regeneration
Titus 3:5, "he saved us, not because of the righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He washed away our sins, giving us a new birth and new life through the Holy Spirit."
you must have a hat filled with scripture verses and you just reach in and pull one out when you need a 'filler'
won't bother to refute the rest. just the usual yada yada
Titus 3:5, "he saved us, not because of the righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He washed away our sins, giving us a new birth and new life through the Holy Spirit."
you must have a hat filled with scripture verses and you just reach in and pull one out when you need a 'filler'
won't bother to refute the rest. just the usual yada yada
We should all be very careful with our attitudes and responses to others on this and other forums, as our interpretations/perspectives of the Word may be wrong, while others perspectives correct and from the Holy Spirit. We are all currently deceived by Satan (Revelation 12:9), as were the Pharisees in their perspectives against the Holy Spirit in Christ.
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No brother. That was not your posting. You maintaned that people go to hell because they do not believe the truth. That is what I requested scripture for. But anyway, if you go to all the judgments were people go to the Lake of Fire, or destruction, or perdition, of Gehenna (for the word "hell" is not in the original texts), you will find that it is ALWAYS because of WORKS.
Matthew 12:31-32 (KJV)
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
KEEP IN MIND: after Jesus cast devils from a man the pharisees attributed what Jesus done to the devil
Now we have to as ourselves a few questions:
Is God the Holy Ghost greater than God the Father? NO!
Is God the Holy Ghost greater than Jesus/God the Son? NO!
THE HOLY GHOST IS NOT GREATER BUT HE WAS....... LATER!!!!
IMO: Jesus was looking ahead and thinking about the coming of the Holy Ghost.
The Holy Ghost is God reaching as far as He will to save us. If men reject the conviction given by the Holy Ghost to repent God will do nothing else to save them.
IMO: Jesus knew they were going to crucify him and said if you treat the Holy Ghost the way your treating me, there will be no hope for you.......... so make sure you dont crucify the Holy Ghost and stay sensitive to Him
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
KEEP IN MIND: after Jesus cast devils from a man the pharisees attributed what Jesus done to the devil
Now we have to as ourselves a few questions:
Is God the Holy Ghost greater than God the Father? NO!
Is God the Holy Ghost greater than Jesus/God the Son? NO!
THE HOLY GHOST IS NOT GREATER BUT HE WAS....... LATER!!!!
IMO: Jesus was looking ahead and thinking about the coming of the Holy Ghost.
The Holy Ghost is God reaching as far as He will to save us. If men reject the conviction given by the Holy Ghost to repent God will do nothing else to save them.
IMO: Jesus knew they were going to crucify him and said if you treat the Holy Ghost the way your treating me, there will be no hope for you.......... so make sure you dont crucify the Holy Ghost and stay sensitive to Him
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Do I take it that we agree that a man or woman does not go to the Lake of Fire because of lack of faith in the truth? Your answer is quite important, because doctrinally it sends every fetus, infant and child who died to eternal torment.
But to your questions.
So when our Lord addresses the CHURCH at Smyrna, ONLY BELIEVERS ARE MEANT. And Revelation 2:11 implies that a BELIEVER can be "hurt of the Second Death". Now, unless you are (i) precise with God's Words, and (ii) are clear why a man goes to the Second Death, you have a big problem. Those who BELIEVED, and were members of a Church, CAN STILL BE TOUCHED BY THE SECOND DEATH (which is used interchangeably with the Lake of Fire). It is no good answering that they were false believers because, as I said, that does not exist in the Bible. One is either a Believer, or an Unbeliever. It is no good saying that their BELIEF was poor or non-existent because they had endured "tribulation and poverty" for it (v.9).
So, I think you will agree that BELIEVING the truth will not save you from the effects of the Second Death. But then ... how shall we answer this that Ephesians 2:8 says that we are SAVED by FAITH? The Smyrnians BELIEVED but ran the danger of being hurt of the Second Death. How so?
But to your questions.
- All judgments by God, or Jesus Christ are based on WORKS. That they are written in books is not for God's memory. It is for ours.
- A person cannot avoid "hell" by their works. A person cannot avoid anything. It is up to the sovereign, All-mighty, All-knowing and All-seeing God whether a man or woman avoids "hell". That is what a Judge is for.
So when our Lord addresses the CHURCH at Smyrna, ONLY BELIEVERS ARE MEANT. And Revelation 2:11 implies that a BELIEVER can be "hurt of the Second Death". Now, unless you are (i) precise with God's Words, and (ii) are clear why a man goes to the Second Death, you have a big problem. Those who BELIEVED, and were members of a Church, CAN STILL BE TOUCHED BY THE SECOND DEATH (which is used interchangeably with the Lake of Fire). It is no good answering that they were false believers because, as I said, that does not exist in the Bible. One is either a Believer, or an Unbeliever. It is no good saying that their BELIEF was poor or non-existent because they had endured "tribulation and poverty" for it (v.9).
So, I think you will agree that BELIEVING the truth will not save you from the effects of the Second Death. But then ... how shall we answer this that Ephesians 2:8 says that we are SAVED by FAITH? The Smyrnians BELIEVED but ran the danger of being hurt of the Second Death. How so?
A person cannot go into to the lake of fire glorified. All those in Christ will be glorified ,because all those in christ are predestined to glorification after they believe. How does a person recieve these blessings above ( Eph 1.3 ) ? Through faith . So by simple common sense its safe to conclude that that only barrier to glorification is Faith . If a person refuses to believe the truth so as to be saved ( His sins already dealt with and reconciliation provided at the cross 2 cor 5 .19 rom 5 .10 then he will not be glorified. What's the common denominator? Those that believed by faith and those that don't. Mark 16.16 . Wheres works ? there excluded .This is the ' clear ' . This is the absolute fundementals on how were saved..Then from this we go look at revelation and other such passages that are not to be used to interpret the clear .
Hi, and welcome to the Forum. I'm sure you'll profit much from the various discussions, and we'll profit from your input.
Returning to your proffered verses. Don't you think that the reason was that in one case, the survivable case, one attribute a work of "a Son of MAN" to Beelzebub, while in the damning case, you attribute the works of God to Beelzebub? It would seem from the case of Ananias and Saphira that they lied to men and survived until it was established that they had lied to the Holy Spirit. It was then that they dropped dead.
There is another similar case. In 1st Timothy 1 Paul hands a believer over to Satan "for the destruction of the flesh". Why? Because he blasphemed! Blasphemy is directed against God. But the same guy in 2nd Timothy 4 is not threatened in the same way because Alexander "did Paul much evil" and "resisted OUR words" - those of a MAN.
Likewise, there was a lot of evil being committed in the Church at Corinth. But the death sentence for a Christian is only threatened in two cases. (i) The man, being the Temple of God, sinned INSIDE this Temple (Chapter 5), and (ii) those Christians in Chapter 11 who dishonored Christ's blood after it has been honored by God (Heb.9:12).
I could be wrong but a man can escape a lot for insulting a Man (including Jesus the "Son of MAN"), but directly insulting the Divinity is a special sin.
Returning to your proffered verses. Don't you think that the reason was that in one case, the survivable case, one attribute a work of "a Son of MAN" to Beelzebub, while in the damning case, you attribute the works of God to Beelzebub? It would seem from the case of Ananias and Saphira that they lied to men and survived until it was established that they had lied to the Holy Spirit. It was then that they dropped dead.
There is another similar case. In 1st Timothy 1 Paul hands a believer over to Satan "for the destruction of the flesh". Why? Because he blasphemed! Blasphemy is directed against God. But the same guy in 2nd Timothy 4 is not threatened in the same way because Alexander "did Paul much evil" and "resisted OUR words" - those of a MAN.
Likewise, there was a lot of evil being committed in the Church at Corinth. But the death sentence for a Christian is only threatened in two cases. (i) The man, being the Temple of God, sinned INSIDE this Temple (Chapter 5), and (ii) those Christians in Chapter 11 who dishonored Christ's blood after it has been honored by God (Heb.9:12).
I could be wrong but a man can escape a lot for insulting a Man (including Jesus the "Son of MAN"), but directly insulting the Divinity is a special sin.
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///person cannot avoid "hell" by their works. A person cannot avoid anything. It is up to the sovereign, All-mighty, All-knowing and All-seeing God whether a man or woman avoids "hell". That is what a Judge is for.///
Of course a person can avoid hell . By believing the Gospel so as to recieve Jesus. John 1.12 . 1 cor 1.21 .
Of course a person can avoid hell . By believing the Gospel so as to recieve Jesus. John 1.12 . 1 cor 1.21 .
There's a reason why the Holy Spirit is mentioned to reprove the world of one sin . ( John 16.8,9 )The sin of not Believing in Jesus. This is the one thing a person cannot be glorified without receiving Jesus and being sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption..This did not happen before the cross and this sealing won't take place after the rapture.
Brother, go to a Bible dictionary and look up the word "glorify". It comes from the root word "doxa", which means "made apparent". That is, when God is glorified it is "made apparent" Who He is. When Christ was glorified by resurrection (Jn.7:39) it was "made apparent" that He had put all sins away. Now, in 1st Corinthians 15:22 it says that, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." That ALL men who had their origin IN Adam will die, is confirmed by Romans 5:12. Then, reading further in 1st Corinthians 15, the question is posed in verse 35, "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Paul answers this question by say that they are raised up ACCORDING TO WHAT WAS PLANTED IN DEATH. And Paul, speaking now of ALL men, says that there are TWO TYPES - "Celestial" (from heaven) and "Terrestrial" (from the earth).
The Christian is born "from above" (Jn.3:3-5), is of the "heavenly calling", (Heb.3:1), is a citizen of heaven (Phil.3:20), and receives a heavenly body in resurrection (2nd Cor.5:1-5). And this heavenly status is "MADE APPARENT". His "glory" in resurrection is celestial! The non-believer is also resurrected, but he is from the womb, from the woman who is but dust, from human seed and is earthy. This is also "MADE APPARENT". The Terrestrial ALSO HAS HIS "GLORY"! Verses 40 gives BOTH GLORY!
40 "There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another."
And among Christians, there will be differing glories because it will be MADE APPARENT in resurrection what type of life the Christian LED!
41 "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory."
But the point I want to make is that even the most evil sinner will be GLORIFIED. His wanton life will be MADE APPARENT! And why did I go to all this trouble to explain "glory"? Why, just to show you that you should be very careful when you make reverse arguments to establish a DOCTRINE. Much better if you stick to DIRECT SENTENCES and/or STATEMENTS! That's why I ask for scriptures in our discussion. Your whole argument was based on a false perception of "glory". And I once believed it too.
The Christian is born "from above" (Jn.3:3-5), is of the "heavenly calling", (Heb.3:1), is a citizen of heaven (Phil.3:20), and receives a heavenly body in resurrection (2nd Cor.5:1-5). And this heavenly status is "MADE APPARENT". His "glory" in resurrection is celestial! The non-believer is also resurrected, but he is from the womb, from the woman who is but dust, from human seed and is earthy. This is also "MADE APPARENT". The Terrestrial ALSO HAS HIS "GLORY"! Verses 40 gives BOTH GLORY!
40 "There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another."
And among Christians, there will be differing glories because it will be MADE APPARENT in resurrection what type of life the Christian LED!
41 "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory."
But the point I want to make is that even the most evil sinner will be GLORIFIED. His wanton life will be MADE APPARENT! And why did I go to all this trouble to explain "glory"? Why, just to show you that you should be very careful when you make reverse arguments to establish a DOCTRINE. Much better if you stick to DIRECT SENTENCES and/or STATEMENTS! That's why I ask for scriptures in our discussion. Your whole argument was based on a false perception of "glory". And I once believed it too.
"To avoid something" is a the result of a planned course of action. It is true that a man can avoid something, but in the case of Gehenna, he avoids it BECAUSE THE JUDGE DECIDED SO. So you choose.
- "The man avoided going to jail by turning his steering wheel before he hit the penitentiary gate."
- "The man avoided going to jail because the judge was merciful"