Lordship salvation vs. "easy believism"

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

soggykitten

Well-known member
Jul 3, 2020
2,322
1,369
113
Thank for your respons.
I don't know what exactly you believe on that teaching.
One of my friend believe no matter what you do after conversion, will not make you loose your salvation. So he steal money from his credit card, because he believe God die for his sin.

I am not expert in theology, but seem to me any teaching that encourage doing sin is not inline with the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Jesus want us to be like Him, not stealing or murder.
To me the teaching osas open the door to do sin.
Someone taught you to believe the wrong thing about OSAS.
If we are not saved eternally, then Jesus mission to earth was a fraud. Jesus didn't say he came to give revocable salvation through God's revocable gift of grace. Those in Christ do not make a habit of sinning. If they do they are not in the covenant of grace.
Perhaps those you're encountering that teach you never have to ask forgiveness again for anything you do because you are forever saved from sin are the bad actors smearing the actual covenant of eternal salvation. Or, OSAS.


1 John 1 is written to believers, Christians.
5 Now[l] this is the gospel[m] message[n] we have heard from him[o] and announce to you: God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all.[p] 6 If we say we have fellowship with him and yet keep on walking[q] in the darkness, we are lying and not practicing[r] the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as he himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses[s] us from all sin.[t] 8 If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin,[u] we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 But if we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous,[v] forgiving[w] us our sins and cleansing[x] us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar and his word is not in us.

What is being spoken of and to in that passage is positional forgiveness within the church. Our sins as unredeemed sinners having repented and accepted Christ through faith are forever blotted out and no longer are held against us. However, that doesn't mean the Christian is perfect. We do miss the mark as pertains to God's expectation of righteousness of and for us. We trespass against ourselves when we do something our redeemed consciousness is aware displeases God. And we trespass against one another in the church.
These sins don't send us to hell as would have happened when we were in the world as sinners unrepentant.
They do mar the fellowship we have with one another though.
Think of a slight you may have committed against someone you care about. You know you did this. They do too. Next time you see them after having done that what is the atmosphere like between you? Tense? Emotional?
That's what we're discussing then about trespasses against one another and others for that matter.

Remember Jesus teaching believers the Lord's prayer? "And forgive us our sins, for we also forgive everyone who is indebted to us" Luke 11 (indebted = sins. indebted to us = sins against us)

God's gift of grace is free and irrevocable. It is a matter of eternal salvation, not revocable temporary salvation contingent on your working to please God all the time or else back to the state of damnation for you. No, you are saved eternally,irrevocably. Because God said so! When God said so, don't let anyone try to convince you otherwise because they don't know more than God. Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
2,754
1,016
113
Someone taught you to believe the wrong thing about OSAS.
If we are not saved eternally, then Jesus mission to earth was a fraud. Jesus didn't say he came to give revocable salvation through God's revocable gift of grace. Those in Christ do not make a habit of sinning. If they do they are not in the covenant of grace.
Perhaps those you're encountering that teach you never have to ask forgiveness again for anything you do because you are forever saved from sin are the bad actors smearing the actual covenant of eternal salvation. Or, OSAS.


1 John 1 is written to believers, Christians.
5 Now[l] this is the gospel[m] message[n] we have heard from him[o] and announce to you: God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all.[p] 6 If we say we have fellowship with him and yet keep on walking[q] in the darkness, we are lying and not practicing[r] the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as he himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses[s] us from all sin.[t] 8 If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin,[u] we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 But if we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous,[v] forgiving[w] us our sins and cleansing[x] us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar and his word is not in us.

What is being spoken of and to in that passage is positional forgiveness within the church. Our sins as unredeemed sinners having repented and accepted Christ through faith are forever blotted out and no longer are held against us. However, that doesn't mean the Christian is perfect. We do miss the mark as pertains to God's expectation of righteousness of and for us. We trespass against ourselves when we do something our redeemed consciousness is aware displeases God. And we trespass against one another in the church.
These sins don't send us to hell as would have happened when we were in the world as sinners unrepentant.
They do mar the fellowship we have with one another though.
Think of a slight you may have committed against someone you care about. You know you did this. They do too. Next time you see them after having done that what is the atmosphere like between you? Tense? Emotional?
That's what we're discussing then about trespasses against one another and others for that matter.

Remember Jesus teaching believers the Lord's prayer? "And forgive us our sins, for we also forgive everyone who is indebted to us" Luke 11 (indebted = sins. indebted to us = sins against us)

God's gift of grace is free and irrevocable. It is a matter of eternal salvation, not revocable temporary salvation contingent on your working to please God all the time or else back to the state of damnation for you. No, you are saved eternally,irrevocably. Because God said so! When God said so, don't let anyone try to convince you otherwise because they don't know more than God. Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.
I agree with what you say except I would say positional forgiveness in Christ. We are forgiven in Christ and baptized into His body, which is the church
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
Like Peter, the Jews did not understand yet the words of Christ and the prophets that the Gentiles would be included in God’s full and rich salvation

Peter was corrected by God in Acts 10, and the others were corrected by Peter in Acts 11
The point is the apostles are faithfully following what Jesus told them to do. The transition is a result of Israel s rejection finally .
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
2,754
1,016
113
The point is the apostles are faithfully following what Jesus told them to do.
They were going into all the world making disciples of all nations while they were preaching only to Jews? Really?

They were preaching the Gospel to every creature?

They didn’t even know about Gods plan to include the Gentiles, though Jesus had told them.

Look at their response in acts 11 to Peter baptizing Gentiles.
 

soggykitten

Well-known member
Jul 3, 2020
2,322
1,369
113
We have all the completed scriptures so we have the advantage to look back after the effect. in spite of the exception . Jesus primary mission was .
Matthew 15:24
King James Version
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

He tells the disciples to ..These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:


And still in Acts 11 19¶Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the JEWS ONLY .
<Note it doesn't say, take away the sins of the Jews only?

I know Jesus mission. Not primary mission as if there was a secondary one. His primary message is very clear. And while you insist Gentiles were not part of that mission and ignore all scripture that proves your theology in error, God knows no member of his flock here will ever follow your call to doubt their place in the kingdom. Or that they are saved as are the sheep of Israel who turn to him.
You should ask your conscience why you deny Christ died for anyone but the Jews.

As I recall your efforts here are against the rules. If I am mistaken so be it. However, as I recall, to deny the divinity of Christ and the gospel is a rule violation. Besides being impossible to defend using proper exegesis.

I shall pray for you that God opens your eyes. I think it a tragedy that you are on this mission.
Look to your own soul. Don't labor so hard here to lose it.

I've been mocked for openly praying for people like yourself by people who appear to be like yourself. That's perfectly OK. God knows my heart. I pray openly like this hoping others so inclined will join in that effort. You see dear TF, eternity condemned is the ultimate, "told you so." As in, God in his own words told you the truth. It is perfect truth and irrevocable.
You seek to abrogate it with your own peculiar arguments that are not truly biblical even though you cite scripture in your efforts.
God help you. Amen.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
They were going into all the world making disciples of all nations while they were preaching only to Jews? Really?

They were preaching the Gospel to every creature?

They didn’t even know about Gods plan to include the Gentiles, though Jesus had told them.

Look at their response in acts 11 to Peter baptizing Gentiles.
They are going to all nations were the Jews were scattered.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
<Note it doesn't say, take away the sins of the Jews only?

I know Jesus mission. Not primary mission as if there was a secondary one. His primary message is very clear. And while you insist Gentiles were not part of that mission and ignore all scripture that proves your theology in error, God knows no member of his flock here will ever follow your call to doubt their place in the kingdom. Or that they are saved as are the sheep of Israel who turn to him.
You should ask your conscience why you deny Christ died for anyone but the Jews.

As I recall your efforts here are against the rules. If I am mistaken so be it. However, as I recall, to deny the divinity of Christ and the gospel is a rule violation. Besides being impossible to defend using proper exegesis.

I shall pray for you that God opens your eyes. I think it a tragedy that you are on this mission.
Look to your own soul. Don't labor so hard here to lose it.

I've been mocked for openly praying for people like yourself by people who appear to be like yourself. That's perfectly OK. God knows my heart. I pray openly like this hoping others so inclined will join in that effort. You see dear TF, eternity condemned is the ultimate, "told you so." As in, God in his own words told you the truth. It is perfect truth and irrevocable.
You seek to abrogate it with your own peculiar arguments that are not truly biblical even though you cite scripture in your efforts.
God help you. Amen.
G4166 - poimen
G4166 - ποιμήν
G4167 ››
‹‹ G4165
Transliteration: poimen
Pronunciation: poi-ma'n
Part of Speech: masculine noun
Root Word (Etymology): Of uncertain affinity
TDNT Reference: 6:485,901
Outline of Biblical Usage:
a herdsman, esp. a shepherd

in the parable, he to whose care and control others have committed themselves, and whose precepts they follow

metaph.

the presiding officer, manager, director, of any assembly: so of Christ the Head of the church
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
<Note it doesn't say, take away the sins of the Jews only?

I know Jesus mission. Not primary mission as if there was a secondary one. His primary message is very clear. And while you insist Gentiles were not part of that mission and ignore all scripture that proves your theology in error, God knows no member of his flock here will ever follow your call to doubt their place in the kingdom. Or that they are saved as are the sheep of Israel who turn to him.
You should ask your conscience why you deny Christ died for anyone but the Jews.

As I recall your efforts here are against the rules. If I am mistaken so be it. However, as I recall, to deny the divinity of Christ and the gospel is a rule violation. Besides being impossible to defend using proper exegesis.

I shall pray for you that God opens your eyes. I think it a tragedy that you are on this mission.
Look to your own soul. Don't labor so hard here to lose it.

I've been mocked for openly praying for people like yourself by people who appear to be like yourself. That's perfectly OK. God knows my heart. I pray openly like this hoping others so inclined will join in that effort. You see dear TF, eternity condemned is the ultimate, "told you so." As in, God in his own words told you the truth. It is perfect truth and irrevocable.
You seek to abrogate it with your own peculiar arguments that are not truly biblical even though you cite scripture in your efforts.
God help you. Amen.
Acts 11 !!!!!! over 10 years after Acts 2
18¶When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
You took a simple statement about Jesus not losing any of His sheep and went all over the place trying to prove that Gentiles are not part of the flock of God. Because of your anti Calvinist fervor, which you subject a non Calvinist (me) to.
I'm having more or less the same discussion I have with calvinists. They use the same verses as your doing?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
Like Peter, the Jews did not understand yet the words of Christ and the prophets that the Gentiles would be included in God’s full and rich salvation

Peter was corrected by God in Acts 10, and the others were corrected by Peter in Acts 11
They are faithfully following Jesus commands.
Matthew 10:5
“These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:”
Do you think they are being disobedient in Acts 11 ?
 

soggykitten

Well-known member
Jul 3, 2020
2,322
1,369
113
G4166 - poimen
G4166 - ποιμήν
G4167 ››
‹‹ G4165
Transliteration: poimen
Pronunciation: poi-ma'n
Part of Speech: masculine noun
Root Word (Etymology): Of uncertain affinity
TDNT Reference: 6:485,901
Outline of Biblical Usage:
a herdsman, esp. a shepherd

in the parable, he to whose care and control others have committed themselves, and whose precepts they follow

metaph.

the presiding officer, manager, director, of any assembly: so of Christ the Head of the church
Maybe your thinking with regard to Gentiles surrounds the passage wherein Jesus told his Disciples not to bring the good news to the Samaritans or Gentiles. Matthew 10:5 Jesus sent out these twelve, instructing them as follows:[m] “Do not go on a road that leads to Gentile regions[n] and do not enter any Samaritan town.[o] 6 Go[p] instead to the lost sheep[q] of the house of Israel. 7 As you go, preach this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven is near!’

Sure enough, our Lord said that.
But why?

The answers are always in scripture TF. And all scripture is always about Jesus/God.
Zechariah14: 9 The Lord will then be king over all the earth. In that day the Lord will be seen as one with a single name.[o] (Notice? It doesn't say, king over Israel only).

Remember, the old testament is not done away with.

The old testament is the foundation of prophecy of Messiah and the new testament is fulfillment of that prophecy with Messiah come.
Why did Jesus say that? Because it was old testament prophecy of Messiah's mission once born to fulfill it. That's the message to Abram. Pay attention to the bolded last part of Genesis 12 excerpt below. This is why you are mistaken to think Gentiles are not included in the plan of salvation or are those other sheep in the sheepfold.

Genesis 12:1 Now the Lord said[a] to Abram,[b]“Go out[c] from your country, your relatives, and your father’s household
to the land that I will show you.[d]2 Then I will make you[e] into a great nation, and I will bless you,[f]
and I will make your name great,[g]so that you will exemplify divine blessing.[h]3 I will bless those who bless you,[i]but the one who treats you lightly[j] I must curse,so that all the families of the earth may receive blessing[k] through you.”


Any and all blessings come through the nation of Israel.
The promise in Genesis (above) fulfilled. The OT tells us in different books there that God always intended for the Gentiles to receive his free irrevocable gift. Isaiah 61, Jeremiah 3:15-18. Just two examples for you.

Luke 2:30 For my eyes have seen your salvation[v]
31 that you have prepared in the presence of all peoples:[w]
32 a light,[x]for revelation to the Gentiles,
and for glory[y] to your people Israel.”

Romans 15:7 Receive one another, then, just as Christ also received you, to God’s glory. 8 For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the circumcised[d] on behalf of God’s truth to confirm the promises made to the fathers,[e] 9 and thus the Gentiles glorify God for his mercy.[f] As it is written, “Because of this I will confess you among the Gentiles, and I will sing praises to your name.”[g] 10 And again it says: “Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people.”[h] 11 And again, “Praise the Lord all you Gentiles, and let all the peoples praise him.”[i] 12 And again Isaiah says, “The root of Jesse will come, and the one who rises to rule over the Gentiles, in him will the Gentiles hope.”[j] 13 Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you believe in him,[k] so that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.
 

soggykitten

Well-known member
Jul 3, 2020
2,322
1,369
113
I agree with what you say except I would say positional forgiveness in Christ. We are forgiven in Christ and baptized into His body, which is the church
Thank you. :)
No conflict there to what I said. Just a different wording. The church is Christ, the body of Christ. All who have placed their faith in him are in Christ.
John 3:16,1 Corinthians 12:13
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
Maybe your thinking with regard to Gentiles surrounds the passage wherein Jesus told his Disciples not to bring the good news to the Samaritans or Gentiles. Matthew 10:5 Jesus sent out these twelve, instructing them as follows:[m] “Do not go on a road that leads to Gentile regions[n] and do not enter any Samaritan town.[o] 6 Go[p] instead to the lost sheep[q] of the house of Israel. 7 As you go, preach this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven is near!’

Sure enough, our Lord said that.
But why?

The answers are always in scripture TF. And all scripture is always about Jesus/God.
Zechariah14: 9 The Lord will then be king over all the earth. In that day the Lord will be seen as one with a single name.[o] (Notice? It doesn't say, king over Israel only).

Remember, the old testament is not done away with.

The old testament is the foundation of prophecy of Messiah and the new testament is fulfillment of that prophecy with Messiah come.
Why did Jesus say that? Because it was old testament prophecy of Messiah's mission once born to fulfill it. That's the message to Abram. Pay attention to the bolded last part of Genesis 12 excerpt below. This is why you are mistaken to think Gentiles are not included in the plan of salvation or are those other sheep in the sheepfold.

Genesis 12:1 Now the Lord said[a] to Abram,[b]“Go out[c] from your country, your relatives, and your father’s household
to the land that I will show you.[d]2 Then I will make you[e] into a great nation, and I will bless you,[f]
and I will make your name great,[g]so that you will exemplify divine blessing.[h]3 I will bless those who bless you,[i]but the one who treats you lightly[j] I must curse,so that all the families of the earth may receive blessing[k] through you.”


Any and all blessings come through the nation of Israel.
The promise in Genesis (above) fulfilled. The OT tells us in different books there that God always intended for the Gentiles to receive his free irrevocable gift. Isaiah 61, Jeremiah 3:15-18. Just two examples for you.

Luke 2:30 For my eyes have seen your salvation[v]
31 that you have prepared in the presence of all peoples:[w]
32 a light,[x]for revelation to the Gentiles,
and for glory[y] to your people Israel.”

Romans 15:7 Receive one another, then, just as Christ also received you, to God’s glory. 8 For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the circumcised[d] on behalf of God’s truth to confirm the promises made to the fathers,[e] 9 and thus the Gentiles glorify God for his mercy.[f] As it is written, “Because of this I will confess you among the Gentiles, and I will sing praises to your name.”[g] 10 And again it says: “Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people.”[h] 11 And again, “Praise the Lord all you Gentiles, and let all the peoples praise him.”[i] 12 And again Isaiah says, “The root of Jesse will come, and the one who rises to rule over the Gentiles, in him will the Gentiles hope.”[j] 13 Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you believe in him,[k] so that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Yes, the timetable stated in the ot was always Israel the nation turning to God first, before the gentiles were to be reached, Zachariah 8.

So peter was correct In resisting going to the gentiles in acts 10. Israel was still in rebellion, they just killed the messenger Stephen, So it wasn't the time for gentiles yet.
 

soggykitten

Well-known member
Jul 3, 2020
2,322
1,369
113
We have all the completed scriptures so we have the advantage to look back after the effect. in spite of the exception . Jesus primary mission was .
Matthew 15:24
King James Version
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

He tells the disciples to ..These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:


And still in Acts 11 19¶Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the JEWS ONLY .
Addressing this part of your quoted post.
You overlooked the first part of Peter's vision in Acts 11.
 

soggykitten

Well-known member
Jul 3, 2020
2,322
1,369
113
Yes, the timetable stated in the ot was always Israel the nation turning to God first, before the gentiles were to be reached, Zachariah 8.

So peter was correct In resisting going to the gentiles in acts 10. Israel was still in rebellion, they just killed the messenger Stephen, So it wasn't the time for gentiles yet.
Is that what Acts 10 says with regard to Peter?
Acts 10:44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell on[dt] all those who heard the message.[du] 45 The[dv] circumcised believers[dw] who had accompanied Peter were greatly astonished[dx] that[dy] the gift of the Holy Spirit[dz] had been poured out[ea] even on the Gentiles, 46 for they heard them speaking in tongues and praising[eb] God. Then Peter said, 47 “No one can withhold the water for these people to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did,[ec] can he?”[ed] 48 So he gave orders to have them baptized[ee] in the name of Jesus Christ.[ef] Then they asked him to stay for several days.
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
2,754
1,016
113
Yes, the timetable stated in the ot was always Israel the nation turning to God first, before the gentiles were to be reached, Zachariah 8.

So peter was correct In resisting going to the gentiles in acts 10. Israel was still in rebellion, they just killed the messenger Stephen, So it wasn't the time for gentiles yet.
After Jesus said preach the Gospel to every creature and make disciples of all nations, it wasn’t time yet?
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
2,754
1,016
113
Thank you. :)
No conflict there to what I said. Just a different wording. The church is Christ, the body of Christ. All who have placed their faith in him are in Christ.
John 3:16,1 Corinthians 12:13
We are in harmony and agreement on this. Amen.