Lordship salvation vs. "easy believism"

[Pilgrimshope]

I believe you mean grace, not grave.

I agree, because the verse say by grace through faith, if we remove faith, than He remove grace.

Grace seal if we not remove faith.

Being from Muslim country, I hear a lot of story about how Muslim convert to Jesus. Some are strong, but some are weak.
One of my ex neighbor was converted for some time, but she loose her income with 3 children.
She back to Muslim or her Muslim brother not support her.

Loose her faith mean loose her grace of salvation.

yes brother my auto correct keeps placing a v in grace.

yes it’s a matter of where faith comes from that will lead anyone to God

Noah was saved because of Gods Grace

“And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

....And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch. ( he then explains how to build an ark )

....Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:7-8, 13-14, 22‬ ‭

that is the righteousness of faith it had nothing to do with the law of Moses , but had to do with God telling Noah something that Noah couldn’t see himself , but he believed God was going to flood the earth so he did what he said and became the heir of the righteousness of faith that the New Testament teaches

Noah did what he did by faith believing Gods word

“By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house;

by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus has come with a message of salvation that message is sent out to any who will believe the true gospel of the kingdom and we learn grave and truth together from him

grace and faith do Not mean “ I don’t need to hear and obey God “ we agree

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I am not one that denies the teaching of repentance or faith. My point is that your continued standing in God’s favor is still just as much a gift from God as it was the first day you believed.

yes it’s forever a gift the gift is a translation from sinners to Gods children who don’t struggle with “ should I kill , lie and steal ?” But they have been made
Partakers of the divine. Store of Christ through thier faith in his word

we have a role


“According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭1:3-8‬ ‭


We aren’t supposed to have the attitude “ I’m saved it doesn’t matter what I do “ because unfruitful branches are tossed into the fires

 

[OIC1965]

yes it’s forever a gift the gift is a translation from sinners to Gods children who don’t struggle with “ should I kill , lie and steal ?” But they have been made
Partakers of the divine. Store of Christ through thier faith in his word

we have a role


“According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭1:3-8‬ ‭


We aren’t supposed to have the attitude “ I’m saved it doesn’t matter what I do “ because unfruitful branches are tossed into the fires

1 Peter 1:16-20 applies here.

I love the passages you quoted.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

1 Peter 1:16-20 applies here.

I love the passages you quoted.

it all applies actually the hilt spirit began to speak when Jesus was anointed at baptism , then his spirit spoke theough the apostles . It’s all applicable it goes together same as the fear of the lord to his beloved church at Corinth

“Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

for we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:9-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

or to the church at Rome

“Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-11‬ ‭

we’re being saved from that because we believe his judgements now and walk in that light as we are washed by the word and purified by the blood of the covenant the word that speaks better things form mankind than the law

always appreciate any scripture really and your tone in discussing . It’s all true and relevant the New Testament is all still applicable . Understanding comes when we take it in and believe what that forms in us .

“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

all I believe we need to do isn’t a work but believe the gospel Jesus spoke and was ordained for salvation and sent out to the world . Rather than rejecting that gospel and claiming another . I think all of us are at a different stage of this thing none are lost if they believe in the lord Jesus Christ


. But at times we’re meant to grow up and begin eating solid meat for the mature and bearing fruit because the fruit doesn’t come from babes ornseedlings but from mature plants and trees .


So we’re in agreement it’s all Gods doing like creation he does it through what he said and told us to believe and be saved . So form my dollar salvation comes from how Jesus said it does before he died and shed the blood of his covenant .

that does include repentance , hearing his teachings and keeping those things in the heart and mind , following the things his word creates in us those better ways promised by The law and prophets

we believe and there is work to be done the gospel however equips is with all we need to come home to the lord

 

[AlmondJoy]

when a Christian commits sin God chastens and we repent.

if you sin willfully and do not feel God chasten you verse 8 tells us why

Hebrews 12:6-8 (KJV)
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

when a Christian commits sin God chastens and we repent.

if you sin willfully and do not feel God chasten you verse 8 tells us why

Hebrews 12:6-8 (KJV)
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

agreed . It’s a concession not a rule to live by. Our attitude should change regarding sin as we grow at whatever pace. There was a time repentance almost seemed like an impossible thing but to look at it the gospel way gives us a different perspective of what it is and how God feels about us .

We can say “repent repent repent or die “ but I’m not sure it will Change people’s heart and mind about the matter but if they heard what Jesus has to say to sinners about repentance maybe they would find the reason repentance is a beautiful thing that pleases the father most assuredly


“Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.



And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.

And he spake this parable unto them, saying, What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.

I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
And he said, A certain man had two sons: And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.

And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living. And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.

And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.

And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!

I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.

And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.

But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry: For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.”

That’s our God and Father waiting patiently to see us on our way home . The young son did everything wrong and left of his own will . But when the father saw him on the way home , he came running before he even made it all the way . Notice how the son is repenting and confessing but the father doesn’t even care what he’s saying he’s happy to have him home

God is really really good and repentance is something that we should view as a gift that pleases the Lord and brings us home into his presence

 

[Ogom]

when a Christian commits sin God chastens and we repent.

if you sin willfully and do not feel God chasten you verse 8 tells us why

Hebrews 12:6-8 (KJV)
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Acts 14:22

Confirming the soules of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, aud that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdome of God.

- King James Version (1611) - View 1611 Bible

 

[OIC1965]

when a Christian commits sin God chastens and we repent.

if you sin willfully and do not feel God chasten you verse 8 tells us why

Hebrews 12:6-8 (KJV)
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Good post and I like your screen name.

 

[Budman]

Correction on 2
Confess and try not to make the same mistake.

Mistake mean something need correction

For example, murder is a mistake in biblical teaching, need to be correct, repent and stop murder.

That's mean if we as Christian do murder, we must regret and not do it again.

I find it odd that people go right to "major" sins in an effort to dispute salvation without works (before or after conversion).

If you have even a single lie, a single lustful thought, a single act of thievery (like stealing time from your boss by goofing off) attributed to you, you are eternally damned. The so-called "minor" sins generate the same fate as major sins.

Those who insist one must keep confessing and asking forgiveness for their sins or they will be counted guilty before God, would have to admit that if one dies with unconfessed sin, they would go straight to hell. God is not going to "wink at" or allow a person with even a SINGLE sin on their account into heaven.

Stop begging for forgiveness for what has already been forgiven - once for all time.

 

[Budman]

Broken fellowship between believers is certainly a possibility, but not between God and His children.

You wrote:

Thirdly, fellowship with God broken:

- If a believer is sinning, fellowship is broken, for God can have no fellowship with sin. Just a the Father could have no fellowship with the Son during the punishment of sin. Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? He turned away because of the imputation of sin, not because Jesus Himself had sinned.
- If a believer is a liar and speaks not truth, fellowship is broken because God who is Truth has no company with the lie. The believer must get right and speak that which is God's Truth.
- If a believer is walking in darkness, fellowship is broken because God who is light has no fellowship with darkness. The believer must repent and come from the path of darkness and walk with the Lord in light.

You are placing your own interpretations into God's word. If what you say is true, man can NEVER have fellowship with God. Or might - but only briefly during the day, or the course of a lifetime.

The Bible says that if you know to do good but do not do it - it is sin. Do you watch movies? Go to an amusement park? Read secular novels? Listen to secular music? Do you do any number of things when your time could be better spent reading the Bible or witnessing to the lost?

If so, you are SINNING. And thus, by your reasoning, be out of fellowship with God. So, how many times a day do you have a sinful thought, or commit a sinful act? 10? 30? 50? 100 times? Thus, according to you, the average Christian must bounce in and out of fellowship with God like a yo-yo throughout the day.

But here's the main reason why we can never be out of fellowship with God:

Ready?

Christians have ZERO sins attributed to them because the shed blood of Jesus cleansed us from ALL unrighteousness. It's the very reason believes are called "holy", "perfect", and "righteous" in scripture. We have the very righteousness of Jesus, as He has taken all sin from us. Sin separates us from God? Yes, indeed. But since we have no sins reckoned to our account, there is NOTHING that separates us from God.

 

[Budman]

I did not say “ lose fellowship or communion”. I said in order for it to be unbroken or unhindered.

There's no difference, as you just stated fellowship can be "broken" or "hindered.

So...that was weird.

You cannot ignore the fact that confession brings forgiveness and cleansing.

Confession is indeed good for us - but it doesn't gain us any more forgiveness than we received at conversion.

It's all or nothing.

 

[Budman]

1 John 1:5 -6. People who falsely believe they’re walking with God

False converts have no place in this conversation.

1:7. The Blood of Christ constantly cleanses us from sin. Present active indicative verb

That's a verse that actually reminds us we have been fully cleansed. In the same vein as Jesus making intercession for us when Satan comes accusing. It's a reminder we are the children of God and will remain so as long as Jesus lives.

1:8. No one is sinless

After conversion, if you have a single sin still attributed/attributable to you, you can never be saved. The Bible says without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin. The Bible also says the sacrifice Jesus made, He made once - for ALL TIME - never to be repeated. So either every single sin we have ever committed, or ever will commit, has been forgiven, paid in full, or NONE of them have.

2:1. Jesus stands as our advocate with the Father when we sin.

I answered this above.

2: 2. He had made the necessary propitiation for sin

Yep. Once for all. No more forgiveness necessary. We have been fully forgiven, fully redeemed, fully joined with Christ - for all time.

 

[Budman]

Well, that's not what I see in the scriptures. What would be your comment about a person who claims to be a Christian - but goes into gross sin and never repents. Do you think that person is going to end up in heaven?

I would give the same answer to Christians who commit so-called "minor" sins. Sin is sin - and all Christians sin - every, single day. You sinned yesterday, you sinned today, and you'll sin tomorrow. The act of forgiveness has been completed. Jesus paid for them all. I've said this numerous times, but I'll say it again: A born again believer cannot go to hell even if he wanted to. God does not take back the gift of salvation under any circumstance.

Either the sin matter is finished regarding believers, or Jesus didn't accomplish what He intended on the cross.

 

[throughfaith]

Well, that's not what I see in the scriptures. What would be your comment about a person who claims to be a Christian - but goes into gross sin and never repents. Do you think that person is going to end up in heaven?

All sins have been dealt with on the cross .

 

[Budman]

All sins have been dealt with on the cross .

Amen!

 

[Budman]

And have remorse, and have the intention of, to go sin no more.

Then you've failed - and will continue to fail - every single day.

 

[OIC1965]

There's no difference, as you just stated fellowship can be "broken" or "hindered.

So...that was weird.



Confession is indeed good for us - but it doesn't gain us any more forgiveness than we received at conversion.

It's all or nothing.

How do you explain 1 John 1:9 which says if we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive our sins?

 

[OIC1965]

Then you've failed - and will continue to fail - every single day.

The fact that we fail every day, (which we do), does not allow us to ignore 2 Timothy 2:19, Ephesians 4:22-24, Colossians 3:5-14.

We are to obey those passages to the glory of God.

...and just because sanctification is a gradual process, doesn’t mean we throw in the towel. We strive, fail, get up and strive again, and in the process, we GROW

A baby will fall many times before it learns to walk.

 

[throughfaith]

The fact that we fail every day, (which we do), does not allow us to ignore 2 Timothy 2:19, Ephesians 4:22-24, Colossians 3:5-14.

2 tim 2.15 is key

 

[throughfaith]

The fact that we fail every day, (which we do), does not allow us to ignore 2 Timothy 2:19, Ephesians 4:22-24, Colossians 3:5-14.

We are to obey those passages to the glory of God.

...and just because sanctification is a gradual process, doesn’t mean we throw in the towel. We strive, fail, get up and strive again, and in the process, we GROW

A baby will fall many times before it learns to walk.

Eph 4 30 is key to 4 22
Col 3.3 is key to 5-14