GRACE

[luigi]

For me seems your going with.. as I read it the worlds definition. And looking into the word of Gods meaning.. I can't see how you came up with refined? Maybe I read it wrong but.. I didn't think you were talking about "salvation"

The main item I am talking about is the definition of Gods grace. And since Gods grace enlightens and refines those of us who choose to not be conformed to the world and its lusts, the result is salvation to those who believe. As such, salvation becomes part of the conversation.

 

[Dino246]

We (the fish) are expected to repent of our worldly carnal inclinations, which then allows God to clean us, if we so choose to not be conformed to this world.

Again, you have this all backwards. We get saved first, and subsequently, God cleans us. Repentance is part of the overall process, not a precursor to it.

If I continue to be conformed to the world by indulging in my worldly carnal inclinations, I am then adding pollutants to the mix, and thereby disaffecting any spiritual refining the Holy Spirit undertakes with me. We cannot serve two masters, you are either going to be conformed to your worldly carnal sins, or you will repent and leave your carnal sins, thereby not conforming with the world, in which case Gods grace will refine you.

Firstly, the verse you quoted is about money, not carnal inclinations. Such misuse of Scripture isn't going to convince me of anything.

Secondly, again, this has nothing to do with your meaning for 'grace'.

 

[luigi]

Again, you have this all backwards. We get saved first, and subsequently, God cleans us. Repentance is part of the overall process, not a precursor to it.

The Lord sent John the baptist to preach repentance prior to salvation. First comes repentance from one's worldly carnal inclinations, then second comes salvation with Gods enlightening spiritual refining grace.

Firstly, the verse you quoted is about money, not carnal inclinations. Such misuse of Scripture isn't going to convince me of anything.

Secondly, again, this has nothing to do with your meaning for 'grace'.

First: The love of money is for worldly carnal purposes. Second: I have given my interpretation for the meaning of God's grace several times here. Gods grace is His spiritual refining of us who believe.

 

[luigi]

Firstly, the verse you quoted is about money, not carnal inclinations. Such misuse of Scripture isn't going to convince me of anything.

Here's another verse about the two opposite masters, of which we can only serve one.

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

 

[Blik]

"For we are Gods workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works", means God is refining those of us who through Gods grace choose to be refined by leaving their worldly carnal sins behind them.

Your ideas of scripture are good, it is just that when we read the words of the Lord we need to not add or take away from them. That means that we must accept every word just as the Lord means it to be. The Lord tells us that through His grace we are forgiven our sins. We need to keep to that, not use our reason to add anything other than that to the word grace. That protects us from using fleshly reasoning, and by playing around with how scripture is written we put ourselves in danger of that. The Lord is exact, the Lord is truth. We need to keep strictly to that truth.

 

[Dino246]

Here's another verse about the two opposite masters, of which we can only serve one.

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Are you quoting this because you think I disagree with it?

 

[Dino246]

The Lord sent John the baptist to preach repentance prior to salvation. First comes repentance from one's worldly carnal inclinations, then second comes salvation with Gods enlightening spiritual refining grace.

I don't think we're going to come to agreement on this, because what you describe simply is not normative.

First: The love of money is for worldly carnal purposes. Second: I have given my interpretation for the meaning of God's grace several times here. Gods grace is His spiritual refining of us who believe.

God's grace comes in many forms; sanctification is one aspect of it. Frankly, I think you're just looking for ways to justify your original meaning. Admitting you were wrong is much easier, but whatever.

 

[Magenta]

A basic definition for Grace is that of simple elegance or refinement of movement.

Biblically, grace is unmerited favor.

 

[luigi]

Your ideas of scripture are good, it is just that when we read the words of the Lord we need to not add or take away from them. That means that we must accept every word just as the Lord means it to be. The Lord tells us that through His grace we are forgiven our sins. We need to keep to that, not use our reason to add anything other than that to the word grace. That protects us from using fleshly reasoning, and by playing around with how scripture is written we put ourselves in danger of that. The Lord is exact, the Lord is truth. We need to keep strictly to that truth.

Good morning Bilk,
I agree that we are not to add or take away from the Lords Word, and that it is by the Lord's grace that we are saved. Are we then not supposed to question what the Lord's grace by which we are saved is? Or are we just to remain ignorant and not ask any questions? Throughout the Bible the Lord provides us with numerous cross referencing data in order to support what something is or isn't. The same applies to the Lord's grace. If you read through all the posts here you will see some of these supports.

 

[luigi]

Are you quoting this because you think I disagree with it?

I posted it because you stated that the other scripture I posted about either serving the Lord or Mammon, was that Mammon was money and did not apply. I therefore posted this one to show you that we can only serve either the Spirit or the flesh.

 

[luigi]

Biblically, grace is unmerited favor.

I do understand that salvation through grace is not of works, but to assume grace means unmerited favor does not appear in the Word.

 

[throughfaith]

I posted it because you stated that the other scripture I posted about either serving the Lord or Mammon, was that Mammon was money and did not apply. I therefore posted this one to show you that we can only serve either the Spirit or the flesh.

Are you sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption?

 

[Dino246]

I do understand that salvation through grace is not of works, but to assume grace means unmerited favor does not appear in the Word.

In the same way, the word, "trinity" does not appear in the Word, but the concept represented by the word, "trinity" is clearly demonstrated in the Word. Likewise, "unmerited favour" is clearly demonstrated, while "refinement" is not.

 

[luigi]

Are you sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption?

I believe I am enlightened now by the Holy Spirit, as the Lord indicated to His disciples the Holy Spirit would provide them illumination.
As to whether I am sealed with the Holy Spirit, it will be dependent on me whether I repent of my carnal ways and choose the Spirit, or whether I choose the flesh and reject Gods Holy Spirit of enlightenment.
Once I have fully tasted the good that comes from full enlightenment from the Holy Spirit, if I should then choose the flesh, I would then obviously not have been OSAS, and sealed with the Holy Spirit (Hebrews 6:4-6; 1 Peter 2:2-3). By the way, can you see what the context of Gods grace is in 1 Peter 2:3? It is in context with the milk from the Holy Spirit by which we grow in 1 Peter 2:2.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

1 Peter 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: 3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

 

[luigi]

In the same way, the word, "trinity" does not appear in the Word, but the concept represented by the word, "trinity" is clearly demonstrated in the Word. Likewise, "unmerited favour" is clearly demonstrated, while "refinement" is not.

I do believe in the trinity, and I also believe there will be many countless more who will have overcome their carnal way who will become one with the trinity, as this is written in the Word. This is off topic, however.

 

[throughfaith]

I believe I am enlightened now by the Holy Spirit, as the Lord indicated to His disciples the Holy Spirit would provide them illumination.
As to whether I am sealed with the Holy Spirit, it will be dependent on me whether I repent of my carnal ways and choose the Spirit, or whether I choose the flesh and reject Gods Holy Spirit of enlightenment.
Once I have fully tasted the good that comes from full enlightenment from the Holy Spirit, if I should then choose the flesh, I would then obviously not have been OSAS, and sealed with the Holy Spirit (Hebrews 6:4-6; 1 Peter 2:2-3). By the way, can you see what the context of Gods grace is in 1 Peter 2:3? It is in context with the milk from the Holy Spirit by which we grow in 1 Peter 2:2.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

1 Peter 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: 3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

If Eph 1.12-13 has not happened to you then you are not of christ .

 

[mailmandan]

A basic definition for Grace is that of simple elegance or refinement of movement. By this definition we understand the grace of elegance to be an effect due to a prior cause of being refined.

Likewise, if the Grace of God then is our being refined, would our being refined not require some effort on our part, such as offering up ourselves as living sacrifices, away from our worldly carnal inclinations, and thus setting ourselves apart (sanctifying ourselves), being made holy, and acceptable to God?

Otherwise, if we do not set ourselves apart from our worldly carnal inclinations, and thus are not sanctified, How are we then being refined in the Spirit, when both the flesh and the Spirit are at war with the other?

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

There are only two kinds of servants in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants of sin unto death and servants of obedience unto righteousness. When we place our faith exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation (Ephesians 2:8,9; Romans 1:16) we then become servants of obedience unto righteousness. Being slaves of sin is put in the "past tense."

Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..

Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not his works) is accounted for righteousness.

 

[throughfaith]

I believe I am enlightened now by the Holy Spirit, as the Lord indicated to His disciples the Holy Spirit would provide them illumination.
As to whether I am sealed with the Holy Spirit, it will be dependent on me whether I repent of my carnal ways and choose the Spirit, or whether I choose the flesh and reject Gods Holy Spirit of enlightenment.
Once I have fully tasted the good that comes from full enlightenment from the Holy Spirit, if I should then choose the flesh, I would then obviously not have been OSAS, and sealed with the Holy Spirit (Hebrews 6:4-6; 1 Peter 2:2-3). By the way, can you see what the context of Gods grace is in 1 Peter 2:3? It is in context with the milk from the Holy Spirit by which we grow in 1 Peter 2:2.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

1 Peter 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: 3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

who's hebrews written to ?

 

[luigi]

If Eph 1.12-13 has not happened to you then you are not of christ .

As I stated, I know that I am now being illumined by the Holy Spirit of God, and therefore am currently sealed with His truth in the Spirit.
Whether I choose to continue to live for the Spirit, or to choose to live for my flesh will still determine my final outcome, as many scriptures testify.

 

[luigi]

There are only two kinds of servants in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants of sin unto death and servants of obedience unto righteousness. When we place our faith exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation (Ephesians 2:8,9; Romans 1:16) we then become servants of obedience unto righteousness. Being slaves of sin is put in the "past tense."

Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..

Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not his works) is accounted for righteousness.

When we believe in Christ we are then set free from having to serve sin, which is our worldly inclinations. Many, however, will choose to remain serving their worldly inclinations as numerous scriptures indicate.
And yes, according to Romans 10:10 if we continue to believe in Christ (which is to believe in the love Christ preached), we will ultimately become righteous. Notice, however, Matthew 7:21-23, where many who will have thought they believed in Christ, will in fact not have believed in what Jesus believed in, and thus the Lord will declare to them, Him never having known them.
This is off topic, however. I am trying to convey what the Grace of God represents.