Lordship salvation vs. "easy believism"

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
If you like to tear John 6 out of your scriptures, it is your choice. I hold it as part of the word of God. Just as Ephesians 2, explaining in simple language that salvation/grace/faith is the gift of God. Not all receive this gift (especially not those who think it is of their own working), only those that God gifts it to. Its not a reward of our faith.


Ephesians 2 (ESV)


8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Not at all . Before the cross we learn how God's dealing with man . Amen . Without the biblical narrative of what happened along the biblical timeline ,we would be in the dark on these things .
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
Not at all . Before the cross we learn how God's dealing with man . Amen . Without the biblical narrative of what happened along the biblical timeline ,we would be in the dark on these things .
Faith is not a work otherwise it would be a reward .
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
Not all receive the gift of being saved?
We have to look at the start of ephesians to see what we recieved ( Gift ) when by faith we were saved. Eph 1 and 2 explain . Eph 1 .1-13 ect .
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
1,504
307
83
Faith is not a work otherwise it would be a reward .
Yes faith that walks hand-in-hand with the gift of grace from God is not a work.

We get a different kind of faith that is a work - that kind of faith when we think the faith is from ourselves, and not the kind of faith that walks hand-in-hand with God's gift of grace.
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
2,754
1,016
113
Ok, here is a predestination debate between him, Dr Michael Brown (Arminian), and Dr James White (Calvinist):

What would be your short version difference between the two camps' view on predestination? Monergism and Synergism?

I’ll touch in that later
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
1,504
307
83
If they don't respond to the Gospel by faith then no .
You said grace is a gift to the saved. It is not a gift to all. Now you make being saved conditional upon their own faith, not their gifted grace?

Can one who has not been gifted with grace from God, have faith to be saved?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
You said grace is a gift to the saved. It is not a gift to all. Now you make being saved conditional upon their own faith, not their gifted grace?

Can one who has not been gifted with grace from God, have faith to be saved?
The prerequisite to be saved is by our faith . Grace comes after not prior . Neither Faith or Grace are substances lol .
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
You said grace is a gift to the saved. It is not a gift to all. Now you make being saved conditional upon their own faith, not their gifted grace?

Can one who has not been gifted with grace from God, have faith to be saved?
Let me simplify . Do you have faith in Areoplanes, pilots, Doctors , your wife if your married your chair if your sitting, your car to get you to work ect ?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
You said grace is a gift to the saved. It is not a gift to all. Now you make being saved conditional upon their own faith, not their gifted grace?

Can one who has not been gifted with grace from God, have faith to be saved?
Ok you were born . Then at some point you hear the gospel. you believed. you were saved . The end lol .Its child like simple.
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
1,504
307
83
Let me simplify . Do you have faith in Areoplanes, pilots, Doctors , your wife if your married your chair if your sitting, your car to get you to work ect ?
Yes, but some don't have faith in all those things. Why does some have faith, and others do not?
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
1,504
307
83
Ok you were born . Then at some point you hear the gospel. you believed. you were saved . The end lol .Its child like simple.
You say grace follows faith.

Some would say faith follows grace.

For by the grace of God Jesus / Yeshua died for our sins, before some could have faith in it.
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
1,504
307
83
Ok you were born . Then at some point you hear the gospel. you believed. you were saved . The end lol .Its child like simple.
Are you saying that only those that can muster comprehension, can be saved? What about the incapacitated or little children that died, could their grace of being saved also just follow their faith. We are all born into sin. Faith follows grace. Grace cannot follow faith.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
You say grace follows faith.

Some would say faith follows grace.

For by the grace of God Jesus / Yeshua died for our sins, before some could have faith in it.
The access to the grace is by faith. Romans 5 . Its not automatically given . You can't be walking down the street then Zapp ! you get hit by grace . No Faith COMES from hearing the word of God . They need to hear the message in order to believe
 

MyrtleTrees

Junior Member
Sep 5, 2014
804
317
63
Edited due to character limit in my reply. Please understand. :)

You're going to find a critic for those observations you realize.
They're going to insist Paul never said there were different kinds of sin. That sin was sin.
This of course is not so and we should rebuke such things because they mislead those who may seek understanding of scripture.

Some arrive at that conclusion, Paul taught sin is sin, because they read Romans3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Paul's ministry was informed by the holy spirit. Jesus taught there were different types of sin. Therefore Paul would not go against that were he informed by the sacred spirit that said it first.
John 19:11 Jesus replied, “You would have no authority[ae] over me at all, unless it was given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you[af] is guilty of greater sin.”[ag]
Footnote:
[ae]
Or “power.”
[af]Or “who delivered me over to you.”sn The one who handed me over to you appears to be a reference to Judas at first; yet Judas did not deliver Jesus up to Pilate, but to the Jewish authorities. The singular may be a reference to Caiaphas, who as high priest was representative of all the Jewish authorities, or it may be a generic singular referring to all the Jewish authorities directly. In either case the end result is more or less the same.
[ag]Grk “has the greater sin” (an idiom). Because Pilate had no authority over Jesus except what had been given to him from God, the one who handed Jesus over to Pilate was guilty of greater sin. This does not absolve Pilate of guilt; it simply means his guilt was less than those who handed Jesus over to him, because he was not acting against Jesus out of deliberate hatred or calculated malice, like the Jewish religious authorities. These were thereby guilty of greater sin.

Idiom: a group of words established by usage as having a meaning not deducible from those of the individual words (e.g., rain cats and dogs, see the light).
  • a form of expression natural to a language, person, or group of people
  • the dialect of a people or part of a country
  • a characteristic mode of expression in music or art.


And also, it is true, the Christian is not perfect once saved. However, our sins, our missing the righteous mark expected of us by God, does not result in the former death and damnation that once awaited the unrepentant, the lost sinner. Rather, those missteps are under the blood of Christ for all time because we have Jesus as our advocate with the father.

I remember when then candidate Trump was asked about his Christian faith. One question pertained to confession of his sins, or asking God to forgive him his sins. He said he didn't ask God to forgive him because he strives not to disappoint God. Not his exact words but near enough.

There are those today who hate Trump and think he is not a Christian and yet I wonder how many of those would say the Christian once saved having repented their sins as a fallen sinner no longer need ask forgiveness for any future sins?
Because that isn't in the scripture.

The repentance isn't to keep our souls saved of course. It is more for us to release our feeling of guilt for having disappointed God with our actions. Being aware we have missed the mark is having a conscious awareness of the difference between sin and righteousness.

Hebrews 12:7 Endure your suffering[h] as discipline;[i] God is treating you as sons. For what son is there that a father does not discipline? 8 But if you do not experience discipline,[j] something all sons[k] have shared in, then you are illegitimate and are not sons. 9 Besides, we have experienced discipline from[l] our earthly fathers[m] and we respected them; shall we not submit ourselves all the more to the Father of spirits and receive life?[n] 10 For they disciplined us for a little while as seemed good to them, but he does so for our benefit, that we may share his holiness. 11 Now all discipline seems painful at the time, not joyful.[o] But later it produces the fruit of peace and righteousness[p] for those trained by it. 12 Therefore, strengthen[q] your listless hands and your weak knees,[r] 13 and make straight paths for your feet,[s] so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but be healed.

2 Samuel 12:13Then David exclaimed to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord!” Nathan replied to David, “Yes, and the Lord has forgiven[y] your sin. You are not going to die. 14 Nonetheless, because you have treated the Lord with such contempt[z] in this matter, the son who has been born to you will certainly die.”
15 Then Nathan went to his home. The Lord struck the child that Uriah’s wife had borne to David, and the child became very ill.[aa] 16 Then David prayed to[ab] God for the child and fasted.[ac] He would even[ad] go and spend the night lying on the ground. 17 The elders of his house stood over him and tried to lift him from the ground, but he was unwilling, and refused to eat food with them.


David knows that his son's condition was brought upon him by the Lord as punishment against David for his unrepentant sin with Bathsheba. David prays for the Lord to show mercy instead. The Scripture says plainly that David's sin has already been taken away by his faith, so salvation was not in question. Nonetheless, David feels the need to pray for forgiveness, because he wishes to save his son.

The Christian who feels led to repent of wrong doing due to the leading of their conscience is not wrong in doing so.
It is a relationship not a religion. If someone feels led to repent of a sin they believe they have committed as one who is in Christ, do so. God knows all things, is Omniscient. You're not doing this to make God aware. Rather, you're doing this to make yourself feel release from having disappointed God with your behavior(s). Or , whatever reason you feel led to repent.
It's personal.
Never let anyone's personal opinion against that, because it isn't supported by scripture, lead you to do anything less if you feel led to repent. God sees them too.
I agree with many things you said on this subject, and on the things i can agree with as being accurate according to the scriptures - I can say you expressed well!

One thing I couldn't agree on - was your saying that since it didn't state that David's sin against Bathsheba endangered his salvation. God knew ahead of time that David would repent, and so He was all prepared to forgive Him and did so after David repented. But I know of many others who fell away from God through personal choice - in the scriptures. And also know that the New Testament warns believers against falling away, and explains how to prevent it.

Yes as in many Bible subjects - many true Christians are unable to agree alike. But we all learn more of God's truths with time, if we remain sincere and diligent in living for Him. As always, the Bible is to be trusted above all else.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
Are you saying that only those that can muster comprehension, can be saved? What about the incapacitated or little children that died, could their grace of being saved also just follow their faith. We are all born into sin. Faith follows grace. Grace cannot follow faith.
The Lord of all will he not do what is right ? Babies, small children, those incapable of discerning or comprehending the Gospel? No . Sin is transgression of the law . You need to comprehend whats right and wrong and be able to accept or reject the truth so as to be saved.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
I agree with many things you said on this subject, and on the things i can agree with as being accurate according to the scriptures - I can say you expressed well!

One thing I couldn't agree on - was your saying that since it didn't state that David's sin against Bathsheba endangered his salvation. God knew ahead of time that David would repent, and so He was all prepared to forgive Him and did so after David repented. But I know of many others who fell away from God through personal choice - in the scriptures. And also know that the New Testament warns believers against falling away, and explains how to prevent it.

Yes as in many Bible subjects - many true Christians are unable to agree alike. But we all learn more of God's truths with time, if we remain sincere and diligent in living for Him. As always, the Bible is to be trusted above all else.
Your making the mistake that David was sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. He was not. Thats why he prayed not to take away the Holy Spirit from him . He would see it come upon only and depart from Saul. There was no forgiveness through the law through what he did . The punishment was death ..But God had mercy on him . Today ( After the cross and the GIVING of the Holy Spirt in Acts 2 ) we are SEALED by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. it is AFTER we are saved that we are predestined to glorification.