Lordship salvation vs. "easy believism"

[BenjaminN]

so the Lord JESUS christ was going to build his Church on the very person who did not understand the gospel until mathew 28 , tries to stop the crucifixion by chopping a man's ear off. Denies the Lord three times, Jesus tells him " get behind me satan " . He doesn't understand that the gentiles are included until 10 years after acts 2 ? And Paul has to rebuke him for his hypocrisy. Nd then Paul mentions nothing of Peter in the book of Romans and we only have two letters compared to 13 epistles from Paul which is where the majority of CHURCH doctrine is to be found . Hmmm ?

Not my word, Jesus / Yeshua's words, if you read Matthew, one of Jesus / Yeshua's first hand observers.

Matthew 16 (ESV)

15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."


Take heed of Peter's warning in 2 Peter 3:15-18, if your interpretation of Paul's inspired writings (of which there sure is a lot), is contradictory to Jesus' own words, or contrary to that of the first hand account of the other apostles (of which there sure was a lot) who walked with Jesus / Yeshua on this earth, knowing his perfect will and walk. Consider for example his beloved disciple John, it would do no harm to expand our horizons, and be inspired by the full message of the whole word of God.

2 Peter 3 (ESV)

15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.


John 11 (ESV)

49 But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, "You know nothing at all. 50 Nor do you understand that it is better for you that one man should die for the people, not that the whole nation should perish." 51 He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.

 

[OIC1965]

Predestined before time. Actuated in time.

Anyways, the point is not what that means, which we can debate all night. The point is the WAY THAT PAUL USED THE PHRASE IN CHRIST in that passage. Did you forget what I said?

How is Paul using the phrase “ in Christ” in 2 Timothy 1:9? Not our position right? So your chief argument against Eph 1:4 has been rebutted.

 

[soggykitten]

Here is an example of unintentional sins, that God forgives whenever Christians sincerely repent of them:
Paul here - is describing the regular struggle a Christian has against unintentional sins in their lives:
Rom 7:20-25

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
KJV
Heb 13:4

4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
KJV
Rev 21:26-27

Edited due to character limit in my reply. Please understand.

You're going to find a critic for those observations you realize.
They're going to insist Paul never said there were different kinds of sin. That sin was sin.
This of course is not so and we should rebuke such things because they mislead those who may seek understanding of scripture.

Some arrive at that conclusion, Paul taught sin is sin, because they read Romans3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Paul's ministry was informed by the holy spirit. Jesus taught there were different types of sin. Therefore Paul would not go against that were he informed by the sacred spirit that said it first.
John 19:11 Jesus replied, “You would have no authority[ae] over me at all, unless it was given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you[af] is guilty of greater sin.”[ag]
Footnote:
[ae]Or “power.”
[af]Or “who delivered me over to you.”sn The one who handed me over to you appears to be a reference to Judas at first; yet Judas did not deliver Jesus up to Pilate, but to the Jewish authorities. The singular may be a reference to Caiaphas, who as high priest was representative of all the Jewish authorities, or it may be a generic singular referring to all the Jewish authorities directly. In either case the end result is more or less the same.
[ag]Grk “has the greater sin” (an idiom). Because Pilate had no authority over Jesus except what had been given to him from God, the one who handed Jesus over to Pilate was guilty of greater sin. This does not absolve Pilate of guilt; it simply means his guilt was less than those who handed Jesus over to him, because he was not acting against Jesus out of deliberate hatred or calculated malice, like the Jewish religious authorities. These were thereby guilty of greater sin.

Idiom: a group of words established by usage as having a meaning not deducible from those of the individual words (e.g., rain cats and dogs, see the light).

• a form of expression natural to a language, person, or group of people
• the dialect of a people or part of a country
• a characteristic mode of expression in music or art.

And also, it is true, the Christian is not perfect once saved. However, our sins, our missing the righteous mark expected of us by God, does not result in the former death and damnation that once awaited the unrepentant, the lost sinner. Rather, those missteps are under the blood of Christ for all time because we have Jesus as our advocate with the father.

I remember when then candidate Trump was asked about his Christian faith. One question pertained to confession of his sins, or asking God to forgive him his sins. He said he didn't ask God to forgive him because he strives not to disappoint God. Not his exact words but near enough.

There are those today who hate Trump and think he is not a Christian and yet I wonder how many of those would say the Christian once saved having repented their sins as a fallen sinner no longer need ask forgiveness for any future sins?
Because that isn't in the scripture.

The repentance isn't to keep our souls saved of course. It is more for us to release our feeling of guilt for having disappointed God with our actions. Being aware we have missed the mark is having a conscious awareness of the difference between sin and righteousness.

Hebrews 12:7 Endure your suffering[h] as discipline;[i] God is treating you as sons. For what son is there that a father does not discipline? 8 But if you do not experience discipline,[j] something all sons[k] have shared in, then you are illegitimate and are not sons. 9 Besides, we have experienced discipline from[l] our earthly fathers[m] and we respected them; shall we not submit ourselves all the more to the Father of spirits and receive life?[n] 10 For they disciplined us for a little while as seemed good to them, but he does so for our benefit, that we may share his holiness. 11 Now all discipline seems painful at the time, not joyful.[o] But later it produces the fruit of peace and righteousness[p] for those trained by it. 12 Therefore, strengthen[q] your listless hands and your weak knees,[r] 13 and make straight paths for your feet,[s] so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but be healed.

2 Samuel 12:13Then David exclaimed to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord!” Nathan replied to David, “Yes, and the Lord has forgiven[y] your sin. You are not going to die. 14 Nonetheless, because you have treated the Lord with such contempt[z] in this matter, the son who has been born to you will certainly die.”
15 Then Nathan went to his home. The Lord struck the child that Uriah’s wife had borne to David, and the child became very ill.[aa] 16 Then David prayed to[ab] God for the child and fasted.[ac] He would even[ad] go and spend the night lying on the ground. 17 The elders of his house stood over him and tried to lift him from the ground, but he was unwilling, and refused to eat food with them.

David knows that his son's condition was brought upon him by the Lord as punishment against David for his unrepentant sin with Bathsheba. David prays for the Lord to show mercy instead. The Scripture says plainly that David's sin has already been taken away by his faith, so salvation was not in question. Nonetheless, David feels the need to pray for forgiveness, because he wishes to save his son.

The Christian who feels led to repent of wrong doing due to the leading of their conscience is not wrong in doing so.
It is a relationship not a religion. If someone feels led to repent of a sin they believe they have committed as one who is in Christ, do so. God knows all things, is Omniscient. You're not doing this to make God aware. Rather, you're doing this to make yourself feel release from having disappointed God with your behavior(s). Or , whatever reason you feel led to repent.
It's personal.
Never let anyone's personal opinion against that, because it isn't supported by scripture, lead you to do anything less if you feel led to repent. God sees them too.

 

[OIC1965]

There is no ' covenant of grace ' . And the ' elect ' are always the jews

So Colossians was only written to Jews? Colossians 3:12

 

[throughfaith]

Predestined before time. Actuated in time.

Thought you said ' given ' as the verse says given ?

 

[OIC1965]

The Law has always been our tutor to lead us to Christ. It points to what God considers to be sin, instead of man-made offences.
At one time it was considered sinful to chew gum, obviously in jealousy by those who had no teeth.

If you want to keep the Law, there are 613 of them..........go for it.
I prefer to put my eternal security in the hands of the One who bought me.

Post of the day right there!

 

[throughfaith]

Predestined before time. Realized in time.

😆

 

[OIC1965]

Thought you said ' given ' as the verse says given ?

Being predestined IS being given grace, is it not?

 

[throughfaith]

Not my word, Jesus / Yeshua's words, if you read Matthew, one of Jesus / Yeshua's first hand observers.

Matthew 16 (ESV)

15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."


Take heed of Peter's warning in 2 Peter 3:15-18, if your interpretation of Paul's inspired writings (of which there sure is a lot), is contradictory to Jesus' own words, or contrary to that of the first hand account of the other apostles (of which there sure was a lot) who walked with Jesus / Yeshua on this earth, knowing his perfect will and walk. Consider for example his beloved disciple John, it would do no harm to expand our horizons, and be inspired by the full message of the whole word of God.

2 Peter 3 (ESV)

15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.


John 11 (ESV)

49 But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, "You know nothing at all. 50 Nor do you understand that it is better for you that one man should die for the people, not that the whole nation should perish." 51 He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.

Do you have to say Yeshua everytime you say Jesus?

 

[OIC1965]

Do you have to say Yeshua everytime you say Jesus?

Yeshua is fine.

 

[throughfaith]

Being predestined IS being given grace, is it not?

Its a consequence of being in a eternal being . Being predestined without Christ negates the necessary death , burial and resurrection.

 

[throughfaith]

Yeshua is fine.

Fair point if that's the case . I do think ' Jesus is the name above every name though .

 

[OIC1965]

Its a consequence of being in a eternal being . Being predestined without Christ negates the necessary death , burial and resurrection.

Not quite. The death burial and resurrection was predestined as well.

 

[OIC1965]

Fair point if that's the case . I do think ' Jesus is the name above every name though .

Actually, in my Greek NT ´ιησους is the name above every name.

 

[throughfaith]

Not quite. The death burial and resurrection was predestined as well.

I suppose this conversation was predestined also was it ?

 

[OIC1965]

I suppose this conversation was predestined also was it ?

I don’t know if it was predestinated, but it was definitely foreseen by God.

 

[throughfaith]

Not quite. The death burial and resurrection was predestined as well.

Which verse ?

 

[OIC1965]

Which verse ?

2 Timothy 1:9

 

[throughfaith]

I don’t know if it was predestinated, but it was definitely foreseen by God.

Again we have to look at the scriptures and not fall foul to pandering to our own human deductions.

 

[soggykitten]

Your exegesis isn't so great either.
The baptism of Jesus (Nazarene purification) is not the same as baptism for believers.
Water baptism for believers is by immersion, and still imitates the purification, but is synbolic of the dying of the old man and bring forth the new man.
Water will get you wet but true salvation comes by the of the propitiation..nothing else.

My Exegesis is excellent if for no other reason than because it doesn't disparage baptism.

Jesus was baptized to fulfill the scriptures prophecy of Messiah. John 1: 33 And I did not recognize him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘The one on whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining—this is the one who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 I have both seen and testified that this man is the Chosen One of God.”[cf]

It was after his baptism that Jesus ministry began. This act delivered the message of the importance of baptism in water, and baptism in the holy spirit, which Jesus said would itself occur after his ascension. Acts 1

Baptism in water came first in Jesus' teachings. John 3:25 Now a dispute came about between some of John’s disciples and a certain Jew[ba] concerning ceremonial washing.[bb] 26 So they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, the one who was with you on the other side of the Jordan River,[bc] about whom you testified—see, he is baptizing, and everyone is flocking to him!”27 John replied,[bd] “No one can receive anything unless it has been given to him from heaven.



Matthew 3:13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to John to be baptized by him in the Jordan River.[u] 14 But John[v] tried to prevent[w] him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and yet you come to me?” 15 So Jesus replied[x] to him, “Let it happen now,[y] for it is right for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John[z] yielded[aa] to him. 16 After[ab] Jesus was baptized, just as he was coming up out of the water, the[ac] heavens[ad] opened[ae] and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove[af] and coming to rest[ag] on him. 17 And[ah] a voice from heaven said,[ai] “This is my one dear Son;[aj] in him[ak] I take great delight.”[al]

Woe to those who disparage baptism in the sinners pursuit of the truth and the way of Jesus Christ. Jesus led by example, as did his disciples with and after him. And they baptized!And Jesus taught baptism in water. All before he ascended. Which negates those who insist Jesus baptized in the holy spirit and it was to that which he referred when "baptism" appears in scriptures. Because we know, as evidenced by just one scripture above, that holy spirit baptism did not occur until after Jesus departed to the father. How do we know? Jesus taught us so.
That is proper exegesis!
Disparaging water baptism is not. And it is a red herring to the utmost to impart in any way that this is saying advocates of baptism are teaching baptism saves. It does not. And to my knowledge no one has ever said it does. No, not even me.

In fact, it is anti-gospel to demean water baptism. Jesus was the living truth of the good news. And Jesus taught the importance of baptism.
Matthew 28:19-20 "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

And by the way? The story of Noah and the ark prefigured water baptism. 1 Peter 3.
So then does baptism save? Was Peter an apostle of Christ anointed by Christ to carry forth Christ's great commission?