When are we saved ?

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throughfaith said:
I've said all along John 16.8 . My point was He convicts everyone regardless of subsequent belief or not . Its not selective .
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I said the same. But you denied that the Spirit draws. You said only the Father draws ( and only before the cross, which is a giant leap into an assumption) and the Son draws after the cross, and the Spirit is never said to draw

Either way, if the Son’s light is attracting us before we believe, that is a prevenient work that occurs before our faith

And if the Spirit convicts before we believe, that is a prevenient work before our faith

And I never said that it is an exclusive drawing. you put those words into my mouth.
 
OIC1965 said:
So now you are allowing the Spirit’s prevenient work to be necessary. Originally, you weren’t allowing for it at all. You were saying “ the Bible NEVER says the Spirit draws. Only the Father and the Son.

Glad you finally invited the Spirit into the equation.
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He does not DRAW like it says the Father DRAWS and the Son DRAWS . Unless your equating drawing with John 16.8 .Your generalising John 16.8 . Convict and reprove is not DRAWING . The Holy Spirit does not DRAW attention to himself. Always to the Son .
 
throughfaith said:
Your alluding to a selective work of the spirit for those that God has elected.
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When did I say that?
You’re like Eleventh and Lena. Assume I’m a Calvinist and then assume I believe certain things based on that assumption

Not hearing what I say, because your assumptions prevent it.
 
OIC1965 said:
When did I say that?
You’re like Eleventh and Lena. Assume I’m a Calvinist and then assume I believe certain things based on that assumption

Not hearing what I say, because your assumptions prevent it.
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Or you don't realise the implications of what your saying maybe ?
 
throughfaith said:
He does not DRAW like it says the Father DRAWS and the Son DRAWS . Unless your equating drawing with John 16.8 .Your generalising John 16.8 . Convict and reprove is not DRAWING . The Holy Spirit does not DRAW attention to himself. Always to the Son .
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Who said the Spirit draws attention to Himself. He draws attention to Jesus.

I thought we already decided and agreed that John 6:45 basically defines what draw means in John 6:44.

When the Spirit convicts, is that basically what the Father is said to do in John 6:44-45, that is reveal truth and teach a person BEFORE they believe?
 
throughfaith said:
Or you don't realise the implications of what your saying maybe ?
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No, you don’t realize the implications of what I say. That’s why you keep attacking Calvinism while talking to a guy who is not a Calvinist

And you flip flopped on your position on the Spirit’s pre conversion work

Now you accept a prevenient work of Grace performed by the Spirit. You were unwilling to do so earlier.
 
OIC1965 said:
Who said the Spirit draws attention to Himself. He draws attention to Jesus.

I thought we already decided and agreed that John 6:45 basically defines what draw means in John 6:44.

When the Spirit convicts, is that basically what the Father is said to do in John 6:44-45, that is reveal truth and teach a person BEFORE they believe?
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I think its specific to what the verses actually say and not general , loosey goosey terms that are interchange to suit .
 
throughfaith said:
He does not DRAW like it says the Father DRAWS and the Son DRAWS . Unless your equating drawing with John 16.8 .Your generalising John 16.8 . Convict and reprove is not DRAWING . The Holy Spirit does not DRAW attention to himself. Always to the Son .
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Define drawing.
 
throughfaith said:
I think its specific to what the verses actually say and not general , loosey goosey terms that are interchange to suit .
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It’s ok. You said you believe the Spirit convicts before we believe. That has always been my position in a nutshell. No one believes apart from a pre-conversion work ( conviction) by the Holy Spirit. I never went beyond this.

Glad we agree on that now. FINALLY!!
 
OIC1965 said:
It’s ok. You said you believe the Spirit convicts before we believe. That has always been my position in a nutshell. No one believes apart from a pre-conversion work ( conviction) by the Holy Spirit. I never went beyond this.

Glad we agree on that now. FINALLY!!
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Pre conversion work ? see now how words matter. Thats extra baggage . The Holy Spirit Convicts the world of the things specifically mentioned in John 16 . which is to EVERYONE . Why not just simply leave it at what the verses ACTUALLY say ?.
 
throughfaith said:
What prevented the rich young ruler from coming to Jesus in the passage above? His love of money.

Are unsaved people any different today that they were before the cross?

If a person's sin and unbelief is the ONLY reason they will not come to Christ, what changed after the cross as far as man's willingness to come to Jesus?
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Were people coming to christ before He even came ?[/QUOTE]

they were coming to God, and Jesus in His preexistent state was God.

Plus, They believed the Promise of God, and the Promise was Christ, though they did not know it.[/QUOTE]
No one was sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption, before the cross .

How to appropriate salvation before and after the cross was not the same. Salvation has always been through faith though .[/QUOTE]
Our timely deliverance here on earth is through our faith. Eternal deliverance is through Jesus's faith.
 
throughfaith said:
I don't argue that . Noah would have asked folks to get on the Ark ,whilst they had time . But look how that turned out . Yes people refuse to believe the truth so as to be saved . The point is that they are refusing to believe the truth. Its the same today . People refusing to believe the truth so as to be saved . Romans 1 says they suppress the truth. This means its self evident that they have to ' suppress ' it . They are without excuse as Rom 1 says . But then Calvinism comes along and gives them an excuse by teaching Total INABILITY . Now they have a reason and an excuse for not Believing.
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The natural man does not suppress the truth that he cannot discern. The regenerate are the ones that suppress the truth that was once delivered to them.
 
ForestGreenCook said:
The same way as in the new testament, by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
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Which we've already established that it was not the case because the Holy Spirit was not given in that way prior to the resurrection. This alone proves Calvinsm is a false system that should be avoided at all costs .
 
ForestGreenCook said:
Old testament sacrifices never forgave sins. Heb 10:4.
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Nope. They were covered but not ' redeemed until the cross .
Rom 3.25
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
 
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