When are we saved ?

[OIC1965]

I'm Going by what Jesus said in John 12 . That he will draw ALL men . I don't believe Jesus is competing with the Father on who draws . There is a change at the cross and subsequent resurrection. Jesus says He will draw All men . So we can be clear that as we don't have a verse for the Father drawing after . The burden is on you to show that The Father is still drawing as that is your claim . Also you say the Holy Spirit is 'drawing ' and yet we have no verse. So I would argue you have two things that are not based on scripture about who draws after the cross.

I agree that Jesus drew all men to Him at the cross. There is no disagreement there. The disagreement is that I said that the passage does not say that all that are drawn will come. I don't believe in universalism. SO the passage neither says all that will drawn in John 12 will come. SO what's your issue?

 

[OIC1965]

So are you saying that because Total inability is true ( T in TULIP ) therefore man needs to be ' enabled ' in order to believe ? Because unless God in some way ' undoes ' the effects of the fall, first they will not be able to believe.

I already said I don't believe in Tulip and I don't believe in depravity in the sense that T teaches it. How many times did I say that? TULIP says that you must be regenerated before you believe. I said I don't believe that. Do you have an issue with your memory?

 

[throughfaith]

that is exactly what Pelagius argument was.

Here comes the boogeyman Pelagius ,scare tactics.

 

[throughfaith]

I guess Peter was dumber than the rest of us, LOL.

Well my point was ,why take an example that was towards Peter and make it for everyone?

 

[throughfaith]

I agree that Jesus drew all men to Him at the cross. There is no disagreement there. The disagreement is that I said that the passage does not say that all that are drawn will come. I don't believe in universalism. SO the passage neither says all that will drawn in John 12 will come. SO what's your issue?

At the cross and After the cross. John 6 doesn't say all that came ' believed ' either . Nor does it say he actually did draw .Just that it was a prerequisite. Regardless After the cross its Jesus who draws ALL ( attracts all )

 

[throughfaith]

I agree that Jesus drew all men to Him at the cross. There is no disagreement there. The disagreement is that I said that the passage does not say that all that are drawn will come. I don't believe in universalism. SO the passage neither says all that will drawn in John 12 will come. SO what's your issue?

The point is made clearer in John 1.9
9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10¶He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Of course Satan is trying to block this light ( And calvinism is helping him )

 

[OIC1965]

At the cross and After the cross. John 6 doesn't say all that came ' believed ' either . Nor does it say he actually did draw .

I'm glad you realize that John didn't say that all would come after the cross in John 6.

The people who came to Jesus had already heard and learned of the Father through Moses, the Law, the Prophets, and John the Baptist. That is why they believed Jesus. BECAUSE THEY WERE WELL PREPARED BY GRACE. A lot of the Gentiles who believed after the cross would be hearing the Word of God for the first time. The Word would have to be revealed and illuminated to them by God's Spirit. Remember, the Spirit that would convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgement? And some would respond to that illumination and some wouldn't.

 

[OIC1965]

The point is made clearer in John 1.9
9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10¶He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Of course Satan is trying to block this light ( And calvinism is helping him )

No one will receive Christ unless there is first a work that prepares them to receive Him.

 

[OIC1965]

The point is made clearer in John 1.9
9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10¶He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Of course Satan is trying to block this light ( And calvinism is helping him )

So you're telling me that you believed the Gospel without any conviction by the Holy Spirit, without any illumination from God of the truth of the words you were hearing? You just accepted them as true, because of what? Was your acceptance of the truth of the Gospel arbitrary or was it based on your confidence in the person that was sharing it with you?

 

[OIC1965]

The point is made clearer in John 1.9
9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10¶He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Of course Satan is trying to block this light ( And calvinism is helping him )

Are you telling me that you just arbitrarily accepted the Gospel without any conviction from God? Is that how you got saved? What caused you to believe? Just an arbitrary act of the will? Like a whim or just a random choice? Or was there something that opened your heart and mind to understand and believe?

 

[throughfaith]

I already said I don't believe in Tulip and I don't believe in depravity in the sense that T teaches it. How many times did I say that? TULIP says that you must be regenerated before you believe. I said I don't believe that. Do you have an issue with your memory?

No the essential part of the T is of course TOTAL inability. Which includes being unable to believe the Gospel unless a work of God precedes to enable a person to be able to be spiritual alive prior . Now in the case of Calvinism we need ' regeneration ' preceding faith. With of course IRRESISTIBLE grace . In the Arminain version . Total inability, still stands. However in this version a ' previenient grace is needed to restore a person out of the effects of ' Total inability / depravity in order that they can make a decision ,with the difference also that this grace CAN be resisted .It sounds like your kinda swinging in one direction and then the other ,depending on the wind lol .

 

[throughfaith]

So you're telling me that you believed the Gospel without any conviction by the Holy Spirit, without any illumination from God of the truth of the words you were hearing? You just accepted them as true, because of what? Was your acceptance of the truth of the Gospel arbitrary or was it based on your confidence in the person that was sharing it with you?

I believe the truth of the Gospel 1) The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation 2) That Faith comes by hearing 3) That the Holy Spirit Convicts the World of their unbelief in Jesus and of righteousness and of judgment ( with all the reasons given in those verses ) 4) Jesus attracts all men to him and that he is the light of the world that lighteth EVERY man coming into the world .
5 ) I believe Romans explains that God's revelation testifies in creation , conscience ect .
6) That the witness of the Church , the Bible and faithful people preaching the Gospel with the above leaves every man without excuse .

 

[throughfaith]

Are you telling me that you just arbitrarily accepted the Gospel without any conviction from God? Is that how you got saved? What caused you to believe? Just an arbitrary act of the will? Like a whim or just a random choice? Or was there something that opened your heart and mind to understand and believe?

18¶For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
We've already talked about the necessary conviction mentioned in John 16.8

 

[throughfaith]

Are you telling me that you just arbitrarily accepted the Gospel without any conviction from God? Is that how you got saved? What caused you to believe? Just an arbitrary act of the will? Like a whim or just a random choice? Or was there something that opened your heart and mind to understand and believe?

A better question might be " why did I believe the truth so as to be saved. Well it would be because of John 16.8 and because of the Gospel appeal. I believed and recieved the Holy Spirit ,the moment I trusted . John 16.8 goes to every one who comes into and is in the world .

 

[OIC1965]

A better question might be " why did I believe the truth so as to be saved. Well it would be because of John 16.8 and because of the Gospel appeal. I believed and recieved the Holy Spirit ,the moment I trusted . John 16.8 goes to every one who comes into and is in the world .

So now you’re agreeing with the point we originally disagreed on. Good.

If you remember, John 16:8 was my original argument for what I am saying.

So you’re telling me the Spirit convicted you before you believed.

Preceding/prevenient grace. The Spirit graciously operated in your life BEFORE you believed.

 

[OIC1965]

18¶For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
We've already talked about the necessary conviction mentioned in John 16.8

Yes. You seemed to say it wasn’t necessary for one to believe.

Man is without excuse because the knowledge of God is present with Him. But He suppresses that knowledge universally. Until God’s Light breaks through.

 

[OIC1965]

I believe the truth of the Gospel 1) The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation 2) That Faith comes by hearing 3) That the Holy Spirit Convicts the World of their unbelief in Jesus and of righteousness and of judgment ( with all the reasons given in those verses ) 4) Jesus attracts all men to him and that he is the light of the world that lighteth EVERY man coming into the world .
5 ) I believe Romans explains that God's revelation testifies in creation , conscience ect .
6) That the witness of the Church , the Bible and faithful people preaching the Gospel with the above leaves every man without excuse .

So now you are allowing the Spirit’s prevenient work to be necessary. Originally, you weren’t allowing for it at all. You were saying “ the Bible NEVER says the Spirit draws. Only the Father and the Son.

Glad you finally invited the Spirit into the equation.

 

[throughfaith]

So now you’re agreeing with the point we originally disagreed on. Good.

If you remember, John 16:8 was my original argument for what I am saying.

So you’re telling me the Spirit convicted you before you believed.

Preceding/prevenient grace. The Spirit graciously operated in your life BEFORE you believed.

I've said all along John 16.8 . My point was He convicts everyone regardless of subsequent belief or not . Its not selective .

 

[throughfaith]

So now you are allowing the Spirit’s prevenient work to be necessary. Originally, you weren’t allowing for it at all. You were saying “ the Bible NEVER says the Spirit draws. Only the Father and the Son.

Glad you finally invited the Spirit into the equation.

Your alluding to a selective work of the spirit for those that God has elected.

 

[OIC1965]

I believe the truth of the Gospel 1) The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation 2) That Faith comes by hearing 3) That the Holy Spirit Convicts the World of their unbelief in Jesus and of righteousness and of judgment ( with all the reasons given in those verses ) 4) Jesus attracts all men to him and that he is the light of the world that lighteth EVERY man coming into the world .
5 ) I believe Romans explains that God's revelation testifies in creation , conscience ect .
6) That the witness of the Church , the Bible and faithful people preaching the Gospel with the above leaves every man without excuse .

All these things come before ( are prevenient) to our faith!!