When are we saved ?

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OIC1965

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#1,821
Sep 19, 2020
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#1,821
throughfaith said:
But you say the reason they don't come is because of sin ? which is it ? Surely your saying the reason they don't come is because the Father is not drawing that individual.
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You are saying a lot of things that the bible doesn’t say. Just take the text for what it says. Do not add. Do not take away

The Bible does not say people don’t come because God prevents them. God prevents no one.

The Bible does say that no one is able to come unless the Father draws them

the Bible does not say that was only true before the cross. You added that. You cannot show me anywhere in the Bible where it is said that John 6:44 stopped being true at any time. That is what you added

See? You’re the one using deductive reasoning...
 
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OIC1965

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Sep 19, 2020
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#1,822
peldom10 said:
Yes...having faith is reason to come too Christ.......why is this an issue?
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Because Jesus said no one can come to Him unless the Father draws them. Thoughfaith says this is no longer true

I see nothing in the Bible where it says John 6;44 and Mark 10:27, will or have ceased to be true

If you can find a place where that is said, I will gladly change my position
 
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OIC1965

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#1,823
Sep 19, 2020
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#1,823
peldom10 said:
You are .....born again......not saved if you are still alive on this earth.
If you are saved here why is God's judgement necessary after this physical death.
Remember scripture....it is appointed unto man once to die...then the judgement. Once God says we are...saved.....we are saved forever...no one or anything can touch us.
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2 Timothy 1:9 says we are already saved. Other places do too
 
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OIC1965

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#1,824
Sep 19, 2020
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#1,824
OIC1965 said:
Because Jesus said no one can come to Him unless the Father draws them. Thoughfaith says this is no longer true

I see nothing in the Bible where it says John 6;44 and Mark 10:27, will or have ceased to be true

If you can find a place where that is said, I will gladly change my position
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And I already know the next objection. God draws through the Gospel. Yes, He does. But Jesus was teaching the Gospel in John 6. And throughout history the gospel has been preached, and some believe and some do not. Yet in John 6:44-45, Jesus said all who are drawn come to Christ.

The other objection is the claim that the drawn ones are those who believed Moses, ie the Torah. Well the Pharisees studied the Torah meticulously and most of them didn’t believe.

So just hearing the Word by itself doesn’t mean you will be drawn. People hear the Word all the time AND DONT UNDERSTAND.

It is necessary that when you hear the Word, the Gospel, the message of salvation, that God illuminates the Word. Flesh and blood has not revealed it to you, but my Father in Heaven has

Those who trust God trust Him because He revealed Himself, made Himself known to them, not in an indirect way, but a personal and direct way

This self revealing act of God leads to faith unto salvation in those who believe or rejection leading to condemnation in those who dont

I think that qualifies as prevenient or preceding grace, ie an act of God in which He directly influences us before we believe.
 
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throughfaith

Well-known member
#1,828
Aug 4, 2020
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#1,828
OIC1965 said:
And I already know the next objection. God draws through the Gospel. Yes, He does. But Jesus was teaching the Gospel in John 6. And throughout history the gospel has been preached, and some believe and some do not. Yet in John 6:44-45, Jesus said all who are drawn come to Christ.

The other objection is the claim that the drawn ones are those who believed Moses, ie the Torah. Well the Pharisees studied the Torah meticulously and most of them didn’t believe.

So just hearing the Word by itself doesn’t mean you will be drawn. People hear the Word all the time AND DONT UNDERSTAND.

It is necessary that when you hear the Word, the Gospel, the message of salvation, that God illuminates the Word. Flesh and blood has not revealed it to you, but my Father in Heaven has

Those who trust God trust Him because He revealed Himself, made Himself known to them, not in an indirect way, but a personal and direct way

This self revealing act of God leads to faith unto salvation in those who believe or rejection leading to condemnation in those who dont

I think that qualifies as prevenient or preceding grace, ie an act of God in which He directly influences us before we believe.
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The confusion here is that yes whilst the pharisees claimed moses and claimed Abraham ect . They had deviated from there understanding. They were no longer following ,they added to and changed things as Jesus confronted them on this in many places. They were not his sheep because they were not learning from the father . Its not about some Hindu enablement . This is where we see a blend of Augustines Manichaeism crept into Christian theology. Thats why we have all this inner effectual call nonsense from calvinism .
 
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throughfaith

Well-known member
#1,831
Aug 4, 2020
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#1,831
OIC1965 said:
You are saying a lot of things that the bible doesn’t say. Just take the text for what it says. Do not add. Do not take away

The Bible does not say people don’t come because God prevents them. God prevents no one.

The Bible does say that no one is able to come unless the Father draws them

the Bible does not say that was only true before the cross. You added that. You cannot show me anywhere in the Bible where it is said that John 6:44 stopped being true at any time. That is what you added

See? You’re the one using deductive reasoning...
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I'm Going by what Jesus said in John 12 . That he will draw ALL men . I don't believe Jesus is competing with the Father on who draws . There is a change at the cross and subsequent resurrection. Jesus says He will draw All men . So we can be clear that as we don't have a verse for the Father drawing after . The burden is on you to show that The Father is still drawing as that is your claim . Also you say the Holy Spirit is 'drawing ' and yet we have no verse. So I would argue you have two things that are not based on scripture about who draws after the cross.
 
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throughfaith

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#1,832
Aug 4, 2020
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#1,832
OIC1965 said:
Because Jesus said no one can come to Him unless the Father draws them. Thoughfaith says this is no longer true

I see nothing in the Bible where it says John 6;44 and Mark 10:27, will or have ceased to be true

If you can find a place where that is said, I will gladly change my position
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John 12.32 The burden is on you to show that he is . Thats your positive claim.
 
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throughfaith

Well-known member
#1,833
Aug 4, 2020
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#1,833
OIC1965 said:
And I already know the next objection. God draws through the Gospel. Yes, He does. But Jesus was teaching the Gospel in John 6. And throughout history the gospel has been preached, and some believe and some do not. Yet in John 6:44-45, Jesus said all who are drawn come to Christ.

The other objection is the claim that the drawn ones are those who believed Moses, ie the Torah. Well the Pharisees studied the Torah meticulously and most of them didn’t believe.

So just hearing the Word by itself doesn’t mean you will be drawn. People hear the Word all the time AND DONT UNDERSTAND.

It is necessary that when you hear the Word, the Gospel, the message of salvation, that God illuminates the Word. Flesh and blood has not revealed it to you, but my Father in Heaven has

Those who trust God trust Him because He revealed Himself, made Himself known to them, not in an indirect way, but a personal and direct way

This self revealing act of God leads to faith unto salvation in those who believe or rejection leading to condemnation in those who dont

I think that qualifies as prevenient or preceding grace, ie an act of God in which He directly influences us before we believe.
Click to expand...
Jesus is not teaching 1.cor 15 ,1-4 in John six . It hadn't happened yet . John 6 is still the Old testament. Heb 9.16

For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

So its not until After the Gospel happens that it is preached .
 
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throughfaith

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#1,834
Aug 4, 2020
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#1,834
When something was revealed to Peter about Jesus, what does that have to with anyone else ?
 
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throughfaith

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Aug 4, 2020
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#1,835
OIC1965 said:
If I really love my wife and children, I am unable to leave them. It doesnt mean it’s physically impossible, it means it is morally impossible and unthinkable, as long as my love is true and real.

Some things are impossible because it is not in our nature. But if something happens to affect that....
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So are you saying that because Total inability is true ( T in TULIP ) therefore man needs to be ' enabled ' in order to believe ? Because unless God in some way ' undoes ' the effects of the fall, first they will not be able to believe.
 
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