Lordship salvation vs. "easy believism"
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After salvation, does God override one's free will? How much obedience or "action" must be produced to determine if one is actually saved?
You are welcome! Nice to see you posting again
Glad to see you're still here! It seems many I knew are gone.
Thank you, BudmanGlad to see you're still here! It seems many I knew are gone.
Those who left of their own free will may be here under a new user name, and even those forcibly ejected, sometimes sneak back in with a new user name, though the latter is against the rules 
Thank you, Budman
Well, on the other hand, it's nice to see so many new members.
Would mind explaining what you mean when you say you don't quite agree?
We are not to judge a persons heart but the fruits will show the spirit still speaks and discernment of the spirits in these days are very important.
The bible says that many false prophets and teachers will show up in vast numbers in the end times and I myself have been personally damaged by these so called prophets and teachers in my early years in faith I do not judge christians but I do see the fruits and recognize the spirit and if you are a teacher a prophet or in any way in a position of guiding his church you more than anyone are to be held accountable for the things you speak teach and how you guide his church because such people know the power words have
I think there is a huge difference between placing your salvation in the hands of others, even in the hands of men who make up the doctrines of different earthly churches and not ever listening to anyone who has studied the word thoroughly. It isn't that these people direct your salvation, it is that these people can help you find the answer to your questions by directing you to the scripture that answers those questions.
When Christ was crucified He sent us 12 apostles that were men who told people of salvation. We are so lucky today, we have the written word to go to so we can check on the men the Lord sends to help us understand.
You always get to the heart of what the Lord speaks to us!
It is really putting our souls on the line to post about scripture. If we are in error, it is very serious. One Christian on this site caught me in an error and showed me scripture to prove it. I am so grateful to that Christian, I could correct my error posting. Now, many many people disagree with me and become my enemy because of it, but don't show me how it is wrong with scripture. May the Lord be with me and with all posters!!!!
It takes wisdom and understanding to learn from correction and you have shown that very well if people disagree with you that is normal but if they become your enemy because of it then that is where the problem is.
You are not alone this though sometimes I would even be stalked by a couple of people who really didn't like me on here every post I made they would try to find something wrong with it they would attack me mock me even call me horrible things like lucifers child heathen ect. These so called Christians are exactly what I am talking about people who claim to be Christians come on here and preach and teach yet show the fruits of the enemy have no ability to learn and some of them even say they have a phd and will use that as leverage
I cannot claim any credit though for speaking of the heart of the matter that God speaks to us I only speak what is on my heart he is the words. But I do hope one day I can mature enough that he would open the door for me to be a teacher or even a pastor but only when he says I am ready, I have learned that to be a good teacher you must also have the heart of a student you can teach and preach about God but if you are not willing to learn and not able to take correction as a learning experience then you have no place to be teaching anyone this is the mistake many seem to make
The Lord doesn't lead us with commands made in the way of "you have to". Government give "you have to" laws. the Lord gives the Torah. It is a gift to us of salvation. Salvation consists of the forgiveness of sin and the Lord explains to us ways to live without sin and what is sin.
You are free to choose to not accept this gift or to accept it, it is not given as something you have to do. But you have to choose to want to live Christ's way or to live wanting the way of sin if you accept God's gift.
Some demons added "works salvation" to church doctrine, that phrase is not in scripture. Thank our heavenly Father, that phrase is not used to teach to not go to Christ with our sins, but it is used to discourage people from accepting Christ within them.
Last night, in YouTube, I listened to gotquetions.org, on the subject of lordship salvation. The speaker said that only lordship salvation saves. Anything less than that, is "easy believism" - and isn't able to save anyone. I also listened to John MacArthur in Youtube - preaching on the subject. He said Jesus and the apostles preached the need for repentance and the need to accept Jesus as Lord, in order for anyone to get saved. He mentioned a lot of Bible verses giving proof of this. He said many think they're saved, by praying the "sinner's prayer of repentance" - but make no effort to change their lives for the better. He said the word "repentance" means, "changing one's way of thinking - plans to do things differently." Both of these speakers said that belief isn't enough to save anyone. Only if coupled with repentance, does it save anyone. And many verses mentioned - showed repentace as preceding baptism and salvation - that's how the verses were worded! The verses mentioned repentance, before mentioningn all the other.
I've observed, that many evidently - true Christians believe that repentance isn't a necessary part to receiving salvation. I believe some of these Christians are true Christians. Since they appear to be walking in obedience to Christ in their daily lives. But their theology - their way of explaining it to others is incorrect. And so has the potential for misleading other people into "easy believism." With the result of their dying without Christ, often.
I talked to the husband of the home we clean house at yesterday about this, and he said that he has also noticed that many true Christians don't understand the subject the same as we do - who do see the need for repentance. He agreed it is hard for them to change their views on the subject, as they've learned incorrectly on it from habit and through people who taught that way. He said we must be loving towards them, though we can't agree on this subject - which is true, according to the Bible. But we dhould pray that they come to understand correctly on the subject.
This thing of "lordship salvation" can be subtly misunderstood. To say I am for or against is is impossible if one does not know what is meant by the term.
So it must be explained:
I am very much against the idea that salvation is by faith plus works. That is, in order to be saved you have to obey certain rules or laws, and then you are saved. NO! NO! NO! Salvation is by grace through faith, not of works.
On the other hand, some say something like this: You get saved by faith in Christ, and then after that you make a choice to either obey Christ or to not obey Him. You should choose to obey, but your choice has nothing to do with salvation. At best, this view is a deep misunderstanding of what salvation is. At worst, it could become heresy that lead people to eternal hell.
Salvation is not just getting sins forgiven, and getting to heaven. Being saved is also a present reality in being given the power through God's grace to live above the control of sin today. We can be saved today, and do not need to wait till heaven to be "saved".
Thus there is no "choice" once gets saved. Being saved and then somehow "choosing" to not obey is a misunderstanding of salvation.
Do you still sin?
If so, why are you choosing not to obey?
Grace, by definition, is unmerited favor. God's gift of salvation is freely given. You can't earn you salvation by your deeds - nor can you retain salvation by your deeds. If so, grace is no longer unmerited, and the "gift" was never free.
You, me, and every single Christian on earth will continue to sin until the day we die. We freely choose to do it. And if a single one of those sins is attributed to us, then the Bible is false when it teaches that Jesus paid for all sin - that all our sins are forgiven.
But if the Bible is true (and it is) then obedience has absolutely nothing to do with our salvation.
You will be up to your eyeballs with those good works you will doing in the Church of Perpetual Motion.
If you dont wear your shoes out, you lose your salvation. snap!...just like that, you don't even get a (GASP!) choice.!
Paul addresses this in Romans 7. Paul speaks of those who have repented of sin so their will is not to sin but find they still sin. There is nothing said about deciding not to repent to save shoe leather as you put it, but in Romans 7:24-25 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
My dear Budman, following Jesus is a heart thing, not a hand thing. He produces the fruits and works in us. It is not of us. It is from Him that all good proceeds. It is definitely not "hard believism or "Lordship Salvation".
Lordship,
.Trying to add to the Atonement,
.It is a shame that a nice word like 'lordship' has been hijacked.
E