When are we saved ?
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Yes. It is a destination chosen ahead of time, and it happens BEFORE justification.
So glorification happens simultaneously with justification? And the call and justification are simultaneous too?
Because we are predestined to Glorification its as good as from God's perspective.
Good answer. So from God’s perspective our glorification is as good as done, right? Even though it HASNT HAPPENED YET?
Well, the only difference between predestined to glorification since salvation and predestined to glorification since before the foundation of the world is human decision right?
We can’t be predestined even though God knows we’ll believe because we haven’t believed yet?!!
So my will limits God’s ability to know and predestinate? I don’t see how that is logical at all.
It is not logical at all to say our having a choice in the matter limits God's foreknowledge.
I agree 100 percent!!! And our election is according to His foreknowledge. Do you see where I’m going.
And I'm going for a nap
The IN HIM part is crucial. All those IN HIM are predestined. So logically no one can be predestined to glorification until they become IN HIM . His Omniscience is a separate thing . Known as sons IN HIM is the point .
We can’t be chosen in Christ based on God’s foreknowledge, yet we can be glorified in God’s mind without yet being perfected into what we shall be?
I don’t see much of a difference between the two really
Don’t get me wrong. I do not hold to Calvinistic views on these. My view is closer to Arminian, but yet not Arminian.
In his mind? Again our view could be shaped on philosophy about God if were not careful .
But you said from God’s perspective we are as good as glorified in Romans 8:30. So changewhat I said from mind to perspective and think about it that way.
so in Romans 8:30, if we can be glorified to such a degree from God’s perspective that it’s as good as done, though it’s not accomplished yet, why cant God know us and choose us in Christ based on foreknowledge, though we be not in Christ yet?
The only difference is the element of a human choice. Does our choices have that much of an effect on God’s foreknowledge and predestination?
Does He wait for us to deal the cards to Him so He can choose and determine but only after we believe?!!
The only difference is the element of a human choice. Does our choices have that much of an effect on God’s foreknowledge and predestination?
Does He wait for us to deal the cards to Him so He can choose and determine but only after we believe?!!
Outside. He created time, so His knowledge and predestination is not limited by that either. God is not limited by ANYTHING, except His own Will and Nature, right?
If God’s nature is such that He would not Will to elect some to life and foreordain the rest to condemnation ARBITRARILY, it still does not follow that for God to know beforehand and to predestine a person beforehand based on that knowledge would also be contrary to His nature. For it would not be arbitrary but would be based on His Divine perfections of omniscience, wisdom, and righteous judgement.
Its what has to happen that counts . Like i said we have Eph 2.11-12 which tells us 12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
So we had ! to be brought near . That was only made possible by .....
14¶For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19¶Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
This only happened 2000 years ago .
Yes, we were alienated from God and seperated from Him by our sins and as such were lost and condemned at that point IN TIME. But God, who is not limited by time nor is His knowledge and electing love conditioned by temporal matters, KNEW we would believe before we believed and chose us before we chose Him, and loved us before we loved Him.
Saved in time but known from eternity is not a contradiction, it’s a paradox. God is beyond our comprehension and we must not measure Him with human limitations.
Nice talking to you. I’m not going to try to beat this into people’s heads anymore. may bless you and all who are, have been, or will be reading these forums.