The things you listed are blessings referred to in Verse 3. Clearly salvation blessings. But the direct object of the choosing in verse 4 is not methods or things, it is people. God chose US in Him. It's also strange how people will say that the choosing is a vocational election, when as you correctly said, Ephesians 1 is entirely about things that pertain to salvation.
When are we saved ?
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The things you listed are blessings referred to in Verse 3. Clearly salvation blessings. But the direct object of the choosing in verse 4 is not methods or things, it is people. God chose US in Him. It's also strange how people will say that the choosing is a vocational election, when as you correctly said, Ephesians 1 is entirely about things that pertain to salvation.
We are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God. Not that God foreknew and chose a plan, but that He foreknew and chose people, as stated by the fact that He chose US in Eph. 1;4. see also Romans 8:28-30
avoid theology that says a believer was “in Christ” before he was “in Adam” (1 Cor. 15:22).
1. No man is “IN CHRIST” until he is born again. 2. Every man was “IN ADAM” when Adam died. 3. The “elect” were not “IN CHRIST”; they were “aliens,” “alone in the world,” “children of wrath,” “dead in trespasses and sins,” “having no hope,” “without God,” and “unknown” (Gal. 4:7–9; Eph. 2:1, 3, 12). 4. The Greek word for “chosen” (Eph. 1:4) is found in Acts 13:17; Mark 13:20; John 15:19; Romans 9:11, 11:5; 1 Corinthians 1:27, etc.; and there is not one case where it occurs that it ever refers to anything DECREED “before the foundation of the world.” Neither Jacob nor Israel were “chosen...before the foundation of the world.”
1. No man is “IN CHRIST” until he is born again. 2. Every man was “IN ADAM” when Adam died. 3. The “elect” were not “IN CHRIST”; they were “aliens,” “alone in the world,” “children of wrath,” “dead in trespasses and sins,” “having no hope,” “without God,” and “unknown” (Gal. 4:7–9; Eph. 2:1, 3, 12). 4. The Greek word for “chosen” (Eph. 1:4) is found in Acts 13:17; Mark 13:20; John 15:19; Romans 9:11, 11:5; 1 Corinthians 1:27, etc.; and there is not one case where it occurs that it ever refers to anything DECREED “before the foundation of the world.” Neither Jacob nor Israel were “chosen...before the foundation of the world.”
καθὼς ἐξελέξατο ἡμᾶς ἐν αὐτῷ πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου εἶναι ἡμᾶς ἁγίους καὶ ἀμώμους κατενώπιον αὐτοῦ ἐν ἀγάπῃ
1:4 καθὼς Just as
ἐξελέξατο He chose. the verb
ἡμᾶς Us. The direct object. The object that the verb acts upon. He chose believers. People, not a plan or a set of things, but people.
ἐν αὐτῷ in Him.
πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου before the foundation of the world, a reference to when this choosing or election took place
εἶναι present tense infinitive TO BE. He chose a people with the intention that they will be...
ἡμᾶς us. It is US whom He has chosen to be...
ἁγίους καὶ ἀμώμους κατενώπιον αὐτοῦ ἐν ἀγάπῃ Holy and blameless before Him in love.
Literally
Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, we to be holy and blameless before Him in love.
i was mistaken earlier. There is no Hina of purpose in this verse. It uses an infinitive to indicate what we were chosen to be in Christ, that is holy and blameless before Him in love. God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before Him in love.
1:4 καθὼς Just as
ἐξελέξατο He chose. the verb
ἡμᾶς Us. The direct object. The object that the verb acts upon. He chose believers. People, not a plan or a set of things, but people.
ἐν αὐτῷ in Him.
πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου before the foundation of the world, a reference to when this choosing or election took place
εἶναι present tense infinitive TO BE. He chose a people with the intention that they will be...
ἡμᾶς us. It is US whom He has chosen to be...
ἁγίους καὶ ἀμώμους κατενώπιον αὐτοῦ ἐν ἀγάπῃ Holy and blameless before Him in love.
Literally
Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, we to be holy and blameless before Him in love.
i was mistaken earlier. There is no Hina of purpose in this verse. It uses an infinitive to indicate what we were chosen to be in Christ, that is holy and blameless before Him in love. God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before Him in love.
The text does not say that we were in Christ before Adam. Neither does my theology. It says we were CHOSEN in Christ. Being chosen in Christ and being in Christ are two different things. You are confused because you don't understand or know how the preposition "en" (in) is used in the Bible.
En (Dative)
- 1. Spatial/Sphere: in (and various other translations)
- 2. Temporal: in, within, when, while, during
- 3. Association (often close personal relationship): with
- 4. Cause: because of
- 5.Instrumental: by, with
- 6. Reference/Respect: with respect to/with reference to
- 7. Manner: with
- 8. Thing Possessed: with (in the sense of which possesses)
- 9. Standard (=Dative of Rule): according to the standard of
- 10. As an equivalent for eis (with verbs of notion)
For example, when you ask for something 'IN JESUS NAME", does that mean that the thing you are requesting exists spatially or temporally inside of Jesus' name? Not at all.
I just know I personally was not chosen before I existed. I see over the next page that I had no hope and I was without God . A stranger for all promises. Praise God I am now in him and chosen with all spiritual blessings in Christ Jesus.
God gave us certain things; but these things were only “given us IN CHRIST JESUS” (see text), and, therefore, to get them, you had to get “in” Him! “Before the foundation of the world,” God decreed that He would choose no one in this age to become “holy and without blame” unless they were“in Christ.” Jesus Christ was to be the medium through which all blessings would be dispensed.
This is what Paul is wanting these already saved saints ,to understand. This information is fitting the rest of the book of ephesians.
This is what Paul is wanting these already saved saints ,to understand. This information is fitting the rest of the book of ephesians.
Various uses of the preposition "en", the word translated "in" Ephesians 1:4 G1722 is the reference number for the preposition "en"
But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by G1722 heaven; for it is God's throne: Matthew 5:34
Are you spatially in heaven when you swear by (greek en) God's throne? No.
James 5:14 what does annointing with oil in the name of the Lord mean? That the oil exists spatially in the name of the Lord, or does it mean something else?
Do you mean that in God's mind he saw you personally and chose you in Jesus. If so how ? And how do you then reconcile eph 2.11-12 ?
And if he chose you in Jesus , in his mind personally, did this effect your decision to believe the Gospel? If not what's the big push to establish your position?
See i do not see how we were chosen according to the foreknowledge of God to be converted?
You do not have to be able to "see" something to believe it. Just take God at His Word in faith.
“Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,” 2 Timothy 1:9
You have God giving us something IN CHRIST before we existed, so why is it impossible for God to choose us IN CHRIST before we existed?
How does God give us something in Christ Jesus before we existed? Because IN JESUS in this verse is not talking about where we were spatially, but the basis of God's ACTION.
This should remove any objection to pre temporal election that is caused by the words "in Christ"
What does "in Christ Jesus" mean in 2 Timothy 1:9. It doesn't mean spatial existence or location, does it?
Further discussion on the meaning of "IN CHRIST JESUS" in Ephesians 1;4
A similar construction is used in 2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
The phrase "in Christ Jesus" is not referring to our spatial existence in Jesus. The phrase "in Christ Jesus"is not in reference to us at all. Here in 2 Timothy 1:9 it is in reference to the verb (give), not the object. In the same way, in Ephesians 1:4, the phrase "in Him" is not referring to our spatial existence. It is not in reference to us at all. The phrase "in Christ Jesus" is in reference to the VERB, "He chose us"
So the texts do not say we were in Christ Jesus before the world was made, the texts say that God ACTED in Christ Jesus before the world was made.
The phrase "in Christ Jesus" is in reference to the ACTIONS that God performed and not talking about our spatial existence AT ALL.
A similar construction is used in 2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
The phrase "in Christ Jesus" is not referring to our spatial existence in Jesus. The phrase "in Christ Jesus"is not in reference to us at all. Here in 2 Timothy 1:9 it is in reference to the verb (give), not the object. In the same way, in Ephesians 1:4, the phrase "in Him" is not referring to our spatial existence. It is not in reference to us at all. The phrase "in Christ Jesus" is in reference to the VERB, "He chose us"
So the texts do not say we were in Christ Jesus before the world was made, the texts say that God ACTED in Christ Jesus before the world was made.
The phrase "in Christ Jesus" is in reference to the ACTIONS that God performed and not talking about our spatial existence AT ALL.
The English that clears up the Greek is found in 2 Timothy 1:9 There, we are told that “before the world began” (as Eph. 1:4), God gave us certain things; but these things were only “given us IN CHRIST JESUS” and, therefore, to get them, you had to get “in” Him! 2. Observe the close similarity between the wording of 2 Timothy 1:9–10 and Ephesians. 1:4–5. The meaning, then, is clear. “Before the foundation of the world,” God decreed that He would choose no one in this age to become “holy and without blame” unless they were “in Christ.” Jesus Christ was to be the medium through which all blessings would be dispensed (vs. 10), and we can only be “accepted in the beloved” (vs. 6). You were not “in the beloved” before Genesis 1:1, nor was anyone else. You were not “in Christ” before Genesis 1:1, nor was anyone else. Christ had no “Body” until Acts 2 into which you could enter (John 17:23); therefore, the entire system of Calvinism—where it deals with election—is a nullity. Predestination (vs. 5) always follows FOREKNOWLEDGE (Rom. 8:29), and election always follows FOREKNOWLEDGE (1 Pet. 1:2).
( From an earlier post .)
No, because I still say God chose US before the world was made.
The fact remains and cannot be refuted that the direct object of the verb "chose" is US. God chose us before the world was created.
CHOSEN IN HIM is in reference to the verb, the act of choosing, NOT to our spatial existence. This completely destroys the argument against pre temporal election that argues it cannot be true because we were not in Christ before we were saved. The phrase "in Christ" is not in reference to us AT ALL. But it is in reference to God's active choice.
Yes God chose that people in him would recieve all spiritual blessings in Christ Jesus.