Have You Received the Holy Ghost Since You Believed?
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The answer to Paul's rhetorical question in 1 Corinthians 12:29-30: Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? is obviously NO.
I have no problem with and believe in spiritual gifts. I simply have a problem with those who overemphasize or even abuse spiritual gifts to the point of perverting the gospel by teaching that if you have not spoken in tongues, you have not yet received the Holy Spirit and won't be saved. I'm not saying there are no miracles today or gifts or healings etc.. but there are some deceptive movements out there within Pentecostal circles who have perverted charismatic influences and the gospel itself! My friend who is a Pentecostal and attends an Assemblies of God church has mentioned that "certain" (but not all) Pentecostals are "out of balance" in their view of spiritual gifts and some are dangerous false teachers, such as Oneness Pentecostals for example.
I have no problem with and believe in spiritual gifts. I simply have a problem with those who overemphasize or even abuse spiritual gifts to the point of perverting the gospel by teaching that if you have not spoken in tongues, you have not yet received the Holy Spirit and won't be saved. I'm not saying there are no miracles today or gifts or healings etc.. but there are some deceptive movements out there within Pentecostal circles who have perverted charismatic influences and the gospel itself! My friend who is a Pentecostal and attends an Assemblies of God church has mentioned that "certain" (but not all) Pentecostals are "out of balance" in their view of spiritual gifts and some are dangerous false teachers, such as Oneness Pentecostals for example.
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I will answer your question in good faith even though I have some doubt that it will be received that way (I don't control that part but have hope that you might actually ponder what is said).
In 1 Corinthians 12: 28-30, Paul begins by talking about DIVERSITIES of tongues, and upon second mention is STILL talking about diversities of tongues.
The additional gift of diversities of tongues (speaking other earthly languages BY the Holy Ghost) is indeed only given to some. But speaking in (unknown) tongues is available to all because all need to worship God in spirit (If I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth). God is a spirit and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. He doesn't require something of all if he doesn't make it available to all. That's why he gave it to ALL on the day of Pentecost and all in Acts 10, and all in Acts 19. Those aren't exceptions, those are examples.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
In 1 Corinthians 12: 28-30, Paul begins by talking about DIVERSITIES of tongues, and upon second mention is STILL talking about diversities of tongues.
The additional gift of diversities of tongues (speaking other earthly languages BY the Holy Ghost) is indeed only given to some. But speaking in (unknown) tongues is available to all because all need to worship God in spirit (If I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth). God is a spirit and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. He doesn't require something of all if he doesn't make it available to all. That's why he gave it to ALL on the day of Pentecost and all in Acts 10, and all in Acts 19. Those aren't exceptions, those are examples.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
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E
I should have known better
tongues is tongues, actually it is not even a word, it should be languages, because the word language was not used when the English bibles were first produced,
if One speaks in an unknown tongue an interpreter is required hence why some have the gift of speaking and some have the gift of interpreting
and by the way, when you say things like I do not know if your message will be received you come across as arrogant. Shame on you
tongues is tongues, actually it is not even a word, it should be languages, because the word language was not used when the English bibles were first produced,
if One speaks in an unknown tongue an interpreter is required hence why some have the gift of speaking and some have the gift of interpreting
and by the way, when you say things like I do not know if your message will be received you come across as arrogant. Shame on you
Sorry, I did not mean to come across as arrogant. When i said "in good faith" i actually meant "honestly and with my guard down".
I realize that tongues means languages and "tongues" doesn't easily clarify what type of language or use of language is being referred to. The only way I know to clarify that is to temporarily use other descriptors. That might require us to agree to a list of new terms to describe each. I haven't found a simple way to do that but would be willing to create a short list for you to add to (or do same for a list you provide).
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
I realize that tongues means languages and "tongues" doesn't easily clarify what type of language or use of language is being referred to. The only way I know to clarify that is to temporarily use other descriptors. That might require us to agree to a list of new terms to describe each. I haven't found a simple way to do that but would be willing to create a short list for you to add to (or do same for a list you provide).
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Here's what I might suggest...
1). "Native language" - The 1st naturally-learned earthly language of the person speaking (or hearing, depending on which person we're talking about). Could also be called "birth language".
2). "2nd language" - any earthly language learned by the speaker/hearer in addition to their native language
3). "Foreign language" - any earthly language that is not understood by the person being referenced
4). "Natural interpretation" - When someone provides the message of what was said in a foreign language to the hearer, because the interpreter knows both languages (has learned a 2nd language and can convert between the two).
5). "Babbly tongues" - That mumbly or unintelligible speech used by Charismatic Catholics and Pentecostals that they claim is a prayer language
6). "Diversities of tongues" - Speaking a foreign language(s) by the Spirit of God, not by way of having learned the language through natural means.
7). "Interpretation of Babbly tongues" - providing the message of what was said by babbly tongues.
I THINK that would cover most situations. but I could easily have overlooked something important.
Your thoughts?
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
1). "Native language" - The 1st naturally-learned earthly language of the person speaking (or hearing, depending on which person we're talking about). Could also be called "birth language".
2). "2nd language" - any earthly language learned by the speaker/hearer in addition to their native language
3). "Foreign language" - any earthly language that is not understood by the person being referenced
4). "Natural interpretation" - When someone provides the message of what was said in a foreign language to the hearer, because the interpreter knows both languages (has learned a 2nd language and can convert between the two).
5). "Babbly tongues" - That mumbly or unintelligible speech used by Charismatic Catholics and Pentecostals that they claim is a prayer language
6). "Diversities of tongues" - Speaking a foreign language(s) by the Spirit of God, not by way of having learned the language through natural means.
7). "Interpretation of Babbly tongues" - providing the message of what was said by babbly tongues.
I THINK that would cover most situations. but I could easily have overlooked something important.
Your thoughts?
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Israel is very familiar with signs and wonders since Exodus 4. They require a sign anytime someone comes to them and claims to be sent by God. 1 Corinthians 1:22.
A straightforward answer to your question is given in the book of Acts, when you compare the signs and wonders that Peter did for the nation Israel, and what Paul did to prove to Israel and the other apostles that he is also to be included and that the gospel he preached to the Gentiles was legitimate (Acts 15:12)
A straightforward answer to your question is given in the book of Acts, when you compare the signs and wonders that Peter did for the nation Israel, and what Paul did to prove to Israel and the other apostles that he is also to be included and that the gospel he preached to the Gentiles was legitimate (Acts 15:12)
Israel is very familiar with signs and wonders since Exodus 4. They require a sign anytime someone comes to them and claims to be sent by God. 1 Corinthians 1:22.
A straightforward answer to your question is given in the book of Acts, when you compare the signs and wonders that Peter did for the nation Israel, and what Paul did to prove to Israel and the other apostles that he is also to be included and that the gospel he preached to the Gentiles was legitimate (Acts 15:12)
A straightforward answer to your question is given in the book of Acts, when you compare the signs and wonders that Peter did for the nation Israel, and what Paul did to prove to Israel and the other apostles that he is also to be included and that the gospel he preached to the Gentiles was legitimate (Acts 15:12)
Are the other apostles not apostles because there isn't record of them doing all of those particular works?
And at what point is an apostle an apostle?
...Is it only after having completed those signs? (Which would mean those signs are done by non-apostles prior to becoming apostles)
...or are those just signs that start happening as a course of apostleship? (Which means they are apostles even before those signs manifest).
I'd go with the latter.
And I still don't see any requirement to fulfil that particular list. I think Paul just sought God until God did all of those things through him, too, so no one had any excuse to deny his apostleship... even though he was truly an apostle long before doing those things.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Israel is very familiar with signs and wonders since Exodus 4. They require a sign anytime someone comes to them and claims to be sent by God. 1 Corinthians 1:22.
A straightforward answer to your question is given in the book of Acts, when you compare the signs and wonders that Peter did for the nation Israel, and what Paul did to prove to Israel and the other apostles that he is also to be included and that the gospel he preached to the Gentiles was legitimate (Acts 15:12)
A straightforward answer to your question is given in the book of Acts, when you compare the signs and wonders that Peter did for the nation Israel, and what Paul did to prove to Israel and the other apostles that he is also to be included and that the gospel he preached to the Gentiles was legitimate (Acts 15:12)
As you mentioned, the Jews had an established history of looking for all the signs. And if you believe the gospels, you can see how utterly unable they were to recognize their own Messiah even as he walked among them, fulfilling every sign.
Jesus said it truly in John 6:44&65 "no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father" which means you're going to do a whole lot of seeking God directly (through which God himself will reveal to you the truth of the matter) or you won't catch it at all, though it pass right by you.
In essence people need to learn how to PRAY, not to rely on signs.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Not really. I'm guessing they are supplied just like "These signs shall follow those that believe" but I don't think they are a reliable method of testing apostleship.
It's just not that important of a test in my eyes. It seems too many people are deceived by their perceptions of whether a sign has occured or not.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
It's just not that important of a test in my eyes. It seems too many people are deceived by their perceptions of whether a sign has occured or not.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. 16And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate to be with you forever - John 14:15
"If any one loves me," replied Jesus, "he will obey my teaching; and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. - John 14:23
If Abraham was indeed justified by works (of the law), he had something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God. (Faith)
How did Abraham believe God?
By keeping His commands, by doing what God said to do.
By putting his faith in God by doing it.
Was it the law, NO the law was not even given until later.
Still he obeyed and did the works he was told to do with the Gift of the Child he was given.
He trusted it all to Gods lordship over his life and expected he would even raise the child from the dead in order to keep his promises.
This is Faith, Faith in the promise of God in his obedience. The faith of Abraham the father of all who have faith in God and trust in Him and do as he commands.
Not to earn approval or be good enough to be counted Righteous by your own efforts.
The works of Faith is simply obeying God because you trust in him and love him.
That is what make Jesus your Lord and if Lord also Savior because you belong to Him.
But the scripture says why call me Lord Lord and not do what i say, because if you dont obey his command (works) done in faith you are not His. The quality of your works plays not part in your being his only the faith of of them.
Abraham believed God would raise up His son from the dead to keep his promises
But if he failed to do the works of that faith he would never been declared righteous afterwards.
He diden want to earn Gods approval or thought he had to stack the wood for the fire just right or hold the knife just so or whatever quality of personal effort to be right and acceptable sacrifice to God as if that made him good enough for God to raise his son from the dead, that would be works according to the law or works for righteousness sake.
why you work is what matters. to earn approval or because you love.
if you reject the works of faith, you are an unbeliever.
How else is it that baptism saves?
Because it is the first work of faith people are called to much like Abraham was called to sacrifice his Son we are called to a physical work or action for our faith to be alive and be saved in hope assured because of who we have put our faith in when we obey.
"If any one loves me," replied Jesus, "he will obey my teaching; and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. - John 14:23
If Abraham was indeed justified by works (of the law), he had something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God. (Faith)
How did Abraham believe God?
By keeping His commands, by doing what God said to do.
By putting his faith in God by doing it.
Was it the law, NO the law was not even given until later.
Still he obeyed and did the works he was told to do with the Gift of the Child he was given.
He trusted it all to Gods lordship over his life and expected he would even raise the child from the dead in order to keep his promises.
This is Faith, Faith in the promise of God in his obedience. The faith of Abraham the father of all who have faith in God and trust in Him and do as he commands.
Not to earn approval or be good enough to be counted Righteous by your own efforts.
The works of Faith is simply obeying God because you trust in him and love him.
That is what make Jesus your Lord and if Lord also Savior because you belong to Him.
But the scripture says why call me Lord Lord and not do what i say, because if you dont obey his command (works) done in faith you are not His. The quality of your works plays not part in your being his only the faith of of them.
Abraham believed God would raise up His son from the dead to keep his promises
But if he failed to do the works of that faith he would never been declared righteous afterwards.
He diden want to earn Gods approval or thought he had to stack the wood for the fire just right or hold the knife just so or whatever quality of personal effort to be right and acceptable sacrifice to God as if that made him good enough for God to raise his son from the dead, that would be works according to the law or works for righteousness sake.
why you work is what matters. to earn approval or because you love.
if you reject the works of faith, you are an unbeliever.
How else is it that baptism saves?
Because it is the first work of faith people are called to much like Abraham was called to sacrifice his Son we are called to a physical work or action for our faith to be alive and be saved in hope assured because of who we have put our faith in when we obey.
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2 Corinthians 12:12
12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.
Yes, I interpret the passage above as stating that an apostle must display signs and wonders.
Finally 1 Corinthians 15:8 stated, Paul was the final apostle to have seen the risen Christ Jesus.
12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.
Yes, I interpret the passage above as stating that an apostle must display signs and wonders.
Finally 1 Corinthians 15:8 stated, Paul was the final apostle to have seen the risen Christ Jesus.