Have You Received the Holy Ghost Since You Believed?

[Guojing]

I know this might seem petty but I think you overlook what the answer means to your hypothesis, so I'll ask it this way:

How many of that list did Paul need to accomplish before he was an apostle?

Thanks.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

What list were you referring to?

 

[KelbyofGod]

Just reposting this for reference of what I mean as I describe the types of tongues that were happening in Acts 2.

1). "Native language" - The 1st naturally-learned earthly language of the person speaking (or hearing, depending on which person we're talking about). Could also be called "birth language".

2). "2nd language" - any earthly language learned by the speaker/hearer in addition to their native language

3). "Foreign language" - any earthly language that is not understood by the person being referenced

4). "Natural interpretation" - When someone provides the message of what was said in a foreign language to the hearer, because the interpreter knows both languages (has learned a 2nd language and can convert between the two).

5). "Babbly tongues" - That mumbly or unintelligible speech used by Charismatic Catholics and Pentecostals that they claim is a prayer language. I usually call this "unknown tongues" but will use "babbly tongues" to avoid confusing this with foreign languages.

6). "Diversities of tongues" - Speaking a foreign language(s) by the Spirit of God, not by way of having learned the language through natural means.

7). "Interpretation of Babbly tongues" - providing the message of what was said by babbly tongues.

I THINK that would cover most biblical situations, but I could easily have overlooked something important.

It's obviously not a comprehensive list of the uses of the word "tongues" because I've left out

• that body part between your teeth(that has taste buds),
• Archaic or extinct languages (assuming them included in 2nd languages), and
• made up langauges like Klingon or PigLatin

But I may begin that tomorrow...or at least after a nap. Love in Jesus. Rest well.

-Kelby

 

[KelbyofGod]

What list were you referring to?

The list of signs you say must be accomplished by an apostle.

At what point on the list did Paul become an apostle?

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[KelbyofGod]

This list:

 

[Guojing]

This list:

I believe both Peter and Paul did more signs than those in the list.

The Holy Spirit made Luke record those specific signs because he wanted all of us to know that Paul was legitimately sent by God with the gospel of the uncircumcision.

So Paul was made an apostle from the beginning, even before any of those signs.

But for the Jews who were not omniscient, if someone comes to them claiming to be an apostle sent by God, he needed to do signs to prove to them, for Jews always required a sign. (1 Cor 1:22)

God trained them to expect signs from the very beginning (Exodus 4). Do you notice in Exodus 4, that God never tell Moses to tell the Jews to believe "by faith" that Moses was sent by him?

 

[KelbyofGod]

I believe both Peter and Paul did more signs than those in the list.

The Holy Spirit made Luke record those specific signs because he wanted all of us to know that Paul was legitimately sent by God with the gospel of the uncircumcision.

So Paul was made an apostle from the beginning, even before any of those signs.

But for the Jews who were not omniscient, if someone comes to them claiming to be an apostle sent by God, he needed to do signs to prove to them, for Jews always required a sign. (1 Cor 1:22)

God trained them to expect signs from the very beginning (Exodus 4). Do you notice in Exodus 4, that God never tell Moses to tell the Jews to believe "by faith" that Moses was sent by him?

That would be bad advice in any age. But it's what most pastors seem to tell their people and I teach against that kind of blind(ignorant) trust in a thread "Why you are told God no longer Speaks" (or something like that).

 

[KelbyofGod]

I believe both Peter and Paul did more signs than those in the list.

The Holy Spirit made Luke record those specific signs because he wanted all of us to know that Paul was legitimately sent by God with the gospel of the uncircumcision.

So Paul was made an apostle from the beginning, even before any of those signs.

But for the Jews who were not omniscient, if someone comes to them claiming to be an apostle sent by God, he needed to do signs to prove to them, for Jews always required a sign. (1 Cor 1:22)

God trained them to expect signs from the very beginning (Exodus 4). Do you notice in Exodus 4, that God never tell Moses to tell the Jews to believe "by faith" that Moses was sent by him?

And I agree there are likely many unrecorded miracles and signs.

And I also see Jesus trying to get them to stop relying on signs and instead seek God directly..


Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[Guojing]

And I agree there are likely many unrecorded miracles and signs.

And I also see Jesus trying to get them to stop relying on signs and instead seek God directly..


Love in Jesus,
Kelby

We gentiles are not to look for signs, as Paul instructed us in 2 Corinthians 5:7, we walked by faith and not by sight.

But that was not expected for the Jews under the gospel of the kingdom. Jesus himself said it clearly in John 10

John 10
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Jesus knew Israel is to expect signs from him.

Other scripture regarding this issue

John 20:30-31
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Acts 2
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

 

[Guojing]

That would be bad advice in any age. But it's what most pastors seem to tell their people and I teach against that kind of blind(ignorant) trust in a thread "Why you are told God no longer Speaks" (or something like that).

We are gentiles so its difficult for us to understand how God related to Israel in the OT. As recorded in numerous occasions in the OT, signs are to be expected, God almost never scold any Jews in the OT who requested for signs, instead he obliged them.

In this aspect, one thing that made me smile was what Gideon told the Angel of the Lord in Judges

Judges 6:13 NIV
"Pardon me, my lord," Gideon replied, "but if the LORD is with us, why has all this happened to us? Where are all his wonders that our ancestors told us about when they said, 'Did not the LORD bring us up out of Egypt?' But now the LORD has abandoned us and given us into the hand of Midian."

Gideon reminded the Lord that those signs and wonders, that were plentiful during Moses time, was no longer being seen during this time, making the Jews believed that God has abandoned them.

He followed that with his request in vs17

17 And he said unto him, If now I have found grace in thy sight, then shew me a sign that thou talkest with me.

Gideon was certainly not taking it by faith that the Lord was the one who is talking to him but wanted various signs, which the Lord subsequently provided him.

 

[mailmandan]

So you are saying James is teaching some are not saved by faith alone?
But I thought it was by faith alone.

Either you are not reading my posts very thoroughly or else what I am explaining to you just continues to go right over your head. Once again, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

Man is saved through faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone. The Bible clearly states in many passages of scripture that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 15:9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-9, 26; Ephesians 2:8.9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..). *You don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture above in order to figure out that the words, "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus works? NO. So then it's faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE.

James never denies he has faith does he?
He just says his faith is worthless incomplete un-perfected.
Because it was not united with the works of faith, the obedience of faith so it was dead.

When James says "faith without works is dead," he does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That's like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's is dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith (James 2:14) but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. Simple!

So faith does not save until it is united with works...

False. Abraham's faith saved him when he believed the Lord and it was accounted to him for righteousness (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3) many years before he was said to be "justified (shown to be righteous) by works" in James 2:21.

So they must be a different kind of works.

Not two different kinds of works, but two different ways of being justified. *Again, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Does the bible teach about different kinds of works?

There are good works and bad works, just as there is good fruit and bad fruit. There is no saved by "these" kinds of works and just not "those" kinds of works.

Does the bible teach about different kinds of faith?
You says it is a type of faith that does not save.
I say it is a type of works that is needed to make it an un-dead faith.

There is living faith (Ephesians 2:5-8) and there is an empty profession of faith/dead faith. (James 2:14) Fruitless faith (produces no works at all) exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. You have it backwards. Faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation is an un-dead faith and works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of this living faith, but not the source of life in this living faith. Faith produces works and not the other way around.

I am just coming at the same thing from the other direction because I don't see the bible teaching of different types of faith.

James clearly stated in James 2:14 - What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? (Where is the evidence) Can that faith save him? What kind of faith is that? -- Empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith that is alive in Christ. (Ephesians 2:5-8)

It is through faith and by faith.

Amen! (Ephesians 2:8; Romans 5:1)

Faith without the through and the by is dead.

It's about the object of our faith that makes faith alive. Through faith in Christ. Jesus Christ is our source of life and when faith is rooted in Him, life flows in us. Faith is the root and works are the fruit. Just as the source of life flows through the root of a tree and provides life for the tree and results in producing fruit, yet the fruit that grows on the tree is not the source of life in the tree.

The through and the by are the works of faith.

Show me just one verse in the Bible which states we are saved through or by "works of faith." There is no such verse. More eisegesis on your part.

They make faith alive.

No, they show that faith is alive. (James 2:18) Big difference!

They are what we declare in word and deed that makes Jesus our Lord.

Sadly, many deceived people who are trusting in their works for salvation will be very disappointed on judgment day. (Matthew 7:21-23)

Do you at least agree that it is Belonging to Jesus that saves you?

Only genuine believers belong to Jesus. John 1:12 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name. Only those who truly believe in Jesus for salvation will be saved. John 3:18 - “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

That he is Lord of all or not lord at all, you belong to him or you do not?

Either we believe in Jesus unto salvation and He is our Lord and Savior and we belong to him or else we do not believe in Jesus unto salvation and He is not our Lord and Savior and we do not belong to Him. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Either you are not reading my posts very thoroughly or else what I am explaining to you just continues to go right over your head. Once again, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

Man is saved through faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone. The Bible clearly states in many passages of scripture that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 15:9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-9, 26; Ephesians 2:8.9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..). *You don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture above in order to figure out that the words, "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus works? NO. So then it's faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE.

When James says "faith without works is dead," he does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That's like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's is dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith (James 2:14) but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. Simple!

False. Abraham's faith saved him when he believed the Lord and it was accounted to him for righteousness (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3) many years before he was said to be "justified (shown to be righteous) by works" in James 2:21.

Not two different kinds of works, but two different ways of being justified. *Again, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

There are good works and bad works, just as there is good fruit and bad fruit. There is no saved by "these" kinds of works and just not "those" kinds of works.

There is living faith (Ephesians 2:5-8) and there is an empty profession of faith/dead faith. (James 2:14) Fruitless faith (produces no works at all) exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. You have it backwards. Faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation is an un-dead faith and works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of this living faith, but not the source of life in this living faith. Faith produces works and not the other way around.

James clearly stated in James 2:14 - What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? (Where is the evidence) Can that faith save him? What kind of faith is that? -- Empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith that is alive in Christ. (Ephesians 2:5-8)

Amen! (Ephesians 2:8; Romans 5:1)

It's about the object of our faith that makes faith alive. Through faith in Christ. Jesus Christ is our source of life and when faith is rooted in Him, life flows in us. Faith is the root and works are the fruit. Just as the source of life flows through the root of a tree and provides life for the tree and results in producing fruit, yet the fruit that grows on the tree is not the source of life in the tree.

Show me just one verse in the Bible which states we are saved through or by "works of faith." There is no such verse. More eisegesis on your part.

No, they show that faith is alive. (James 2:18) Big difference!

Sadly, many deceived people who are trusting in their works for salvation will be very disappointed on judgment day. (Matthew 7:21-23)

Only genuine believers belong to Jesus. John 1:12 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name. Only those who truly believe in Jesus for salvation will be saved. John 3:18 - “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Either we believe in Jesus unto salvation and He is our Lord and Savior and we belong to him or else we do not believe in Jesus unto salvation and He is not our Lord and Savior and we do not belong to Him. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers.

I find it amazing there are those who claim James is teaching we are saved by faith and works, where james words state, if you claim to have faith and have NO work....

in reality, if one has just one or a few works, they have met James condition for living faith.

thats probably why paul called the corinthian church brothers and called them babes,although they were deep in some serious sin they were not just hearers and not doers (James) but they had evidence of living faith they were just weak in a few areas, like all babes are,

 

[mailmandan]

I find it amazing of through who claim James is teaching we are saved by faith and works, where james words state, if you claim to have faith and have NO work....

The word SAYS/CLAIMS to have faith but has no works is really key to understanding James 2:14-24. James is drawing a contrast between an empty profession of faith/dead faith which produces no works and authentic faith which is evidenced by works. Yet works-salvationists continue to misinterpret James and teach that man is saved by both faith and works, in contradiction to multiple passages of scripture which teach otherwise. (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The word SAYS/CLAIMS to have faith but has no works is really key to understanding James 2:14-24. James is drawing a contrast between an empty profession of faith/dead faith which produces no works and authentic faith which is evidenced by works. Yet works-salvationists continue to misinterpret James and teach that man is saved by both faith and works, in contradiction to multiple passages of scripture which teach otherwise. (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

Yes, NOt of works, Spoken far to many times to focus on one passage it of context

 

[KelbyofGod]

Sometimes I wish I could put a complex explanation into 2 short sentences.... Sigh.

I want to address a false doctrine that suggests diversities of tongues is what was given at the INITIAL outpouring in Acts 2:4.

It's simplest just to say "No, they were given the babbly (unknown) tongues so they could worship God in SPIRIT as well as in truth. And Diversities of tongues (the gift of speaking multiple earthly languages directly by the Spirit) didn't start happening until the multitude was gathered together" but sometimes more detailed proof is required. My hope is that with further scrutiny, it can be seen that the babbly (unknown) tongues makes sense in the situation, and diversities of tongues (other earthly languages) actually had no need given the initial situation. However, I do realize that if someone sticks their fingers in their ears and says "LaLaLaLa I can't hear you!" or closes their eyes saying "You can't see me!" This explanation probably won't change them much (initally...but the word of God never returns void.) .

I guess I'm going to post Acts 2:1-4 so everyone can review what it actually says (+ Acts 1:15 for reference of WHO it's talking about) then start addressing what some of those initial details mean in regards to the type of tongues that was given to those in that initial outpouring. Grab your bible for reference and let's look with open eyes, ears and hearts!

Acts 1:15 KJV

And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)​

Acts 2:1-4 KJV

And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. [2] And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. [3] And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. [4] And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.​

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[Kolistus]

The amount of people pressured into speaking babble must be in the millions.

I know because I am from that 'movement' myself that you will not escape the pressure of "Just talk something!! just babble! faster faster!". I don't care at all about any sort of spiritual gift UNLESS I see the fruit in their life. That is what is often over looked.

If you speak in tongues and claim to be a prophet as most people in this movement do, yet your life is in absolute shambles, please don't try to convince me to take your "thus saith the Lord" or tongues seriously.

The spiritual gifts are there for the Lord to distribute, and discernment is for us to practice, a guy listening to rammstein on his facebook page is probably not a guy we should take very seriously in spiritual matters, no matter what tongues he speaks in.

If you have the fruit of the Holy Spirit and are living a righteous life, you speak in tongues and you come to me with a prophetic message, I am ALL EARS and will take what you say seriously.

 

[KelbyofGod]

I'll be speaking from my perspective, now that I've actually RECEIVED speaking in tongues. Before someone told me about speaking in tongues, I had no idea what Acts 2:4 was actually saying. And I'm sure that's how a lot of people read it (without knowing what it actually is saying). And that's not an insult because we all start out "blind". And we ought to be willing to admit that same as those in Acts 19:1-7. They show us how to start finding out what the Holy Ghost really is. They are my heroes in some sense because they were able to be HONEST instead of feeling the need to impress the person asking about their current level of understanding. People who claim to know what is said then cannot produce a reasonable explanation that fits the facts...well, that is just sad, not impressive.

Ending post to keep them short.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[KelbyofGod]

If you speak in tongues and claim to be a prophet as most people in this movement do, yet your life is in absolute shambles, please don't try to convince me to take your "thus saith the Lord" or tongues seriously.

The spiritual gifts are there for the Lord to distribute, and discernment is for us to practice, a guy listening to rammstein on his facebook page is probably not a guy we should take very seriously in spiritual matters, no matter what tongues he speaks in.

If you have the fruit of the Holy Spirit and are living a righteous life, you speak in tongues and you come to me with a prophetic message, I am ALL EARS and will take what you say seriously.

This part seems well-spoken. 1 Corinthians 12-14 (although useful as specific teaching also) seem as if they were written in answer to those who had spiritual manifestations but similary to what you describe. Flash but no heart. He wasn't saying "Hey, your manifestations are to be abandoned." But rather "Hey, it's good that you've acheived manifestations, but you'd better get the love in there or you're basically missing the mark".

Thanks for the post.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[SoulWeaver]

The spiritual gifts are there for the Lord to distribute, and discernment is for us to practice, a guy listening to rammstein on his facebook page is probably not a guy we should take very seriously in spiritual matters, no matter what tongues he speaks in.

That's not a good example for the thoughts you're trying to get across. While obviously a Christian won't live the same as non Christian, taking such notions to the extreme, easily turns from "discernment" into "judging according to external appearances". There are baby Christians as well. Plant an apple tree, you won't instantly see apples. But eventually, that tree will bear apples. Some more, some less. When one receives the Spirit they are not instantly a mature believer, skillfully handling the Word of righteousness, "for he is a babe". The Bible tells us about various congregations that they had growth and correction as their experience. Mostly they were not instantly perfect "prophets", yet their saintly status was never dismissed. The apostles who pastored them walked by faith and not by sight.

 

[KelbyofGod]

That's not a good example for the thoughts you're trying to get across. While obviously a Christian won't live the same as non Christian, taking such notions to the extreme, easily turns from "discernment" into "judging according to external appearances". There are baby Christians as well. Plant an apple tree, you won't instantly see apples. But eventually, that tree will bear apples. Some more, some less. When one receives the Spirit they are not instantly a mature believer, skillfully handling the Word of righteousness, "for he is a babe". The Bible tells us about various congregation that they had growth and correction as their experience. Mostly they were not instantly perfect "prophets", yet their saintly status was never dismissed. The apostles who pastored them walked by faith and not by sight.

Well said! I forgot that part. He gives good gifts to ignorant people. Babes!

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[KelbyofGod]

Well said! I forgot that part. He gives good gifts to ignorant people. Babes!

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

I still cringe at some of the things I remember doing or seeing.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby