Not By Works

[EleventhHour]

I agree that election and predestination are biblical. I hope everyone here can agree with that. They are in scripture.

Are people saying God has no part in our faith or ability to believe?

Again define your terms?

 

[EleventhHour]

Actually there is a dichotomy, because the two are very different, but what I said was not a false dichotomy, because I never presented them as either or and I never presented them as the only two options.

Yes there is dichotomy, however my response was with regards to this post
https://christianchat.com/threads/not-by-works.146296/post-4379145
where only two options are presented.

There are other churches that are neither reformed or "liberal" whatever that means.

 

[OIC1965]

Again define your terms?

A. Election. God’s choice of individuals.

B. Predestination- the act of determining beforehand. I.e. God has predetermined that we should be conformed to the image of His Son.

C. Faith. Belief in the Gospel and trust in Jesus for salvation.

D. Ability to believe. The capacity to believe the gospel and trust Jesus from the heart, (the inner man).

 

[EleventhHour]

A. Election. God’s choice of individuals.

For salvation? .....I thought you were not a Calvinist?

 

[OIC1965]

Yes there is dichotomy, however my response was with regards to this post
https://christianchat.com/threads/not-by-works.146296/post-4379145
where only two options are presented.

There are other churches that are neither reformed or "liberal" whatever that means.

I never said otherwise. What I said is that a certain group that I said I won’t mention is both conservative and evangelical

I never said all churches are either liberal or reformed. That is as far removed from what I said as you can possibly get.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[OIC1965]

For salvation? .....I thought you were not a Calvinist?

Do you think only Calvinists believe this?

 

[EleventhHour]

I never said otherwise. What I said is that a certain group that I said I won’t mention is both conservative and evangelical

I never said all churches are either liberal or reformed. That is as far removed from what I said as you can possibly get.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I had responded to @cv5 so I do not know i am confused as well.. not important really.

 

[OIC1965]

I had responded to @cv5 so I do not know i am confused as well.. not important really.

I apologize. I thought you were replying to me. I should have looked closer.

 

[EleventhHour]

Do you think only Calvinists believe this?

A person who believes that tenet has incorporated "reformed theology (Calvinism) into their beliefs.

 

[EleventhHour]

I apologize. I thought you were replying to me. I should have looked closer.

No worries...

 

[OIC1965]

Do you think only Calvinists believe this?

The Bible teaches chosen according to the foreknowledge of God. The chosen part is not really in question. It is the meaning of what foreknowledge means that is the point of disagreement among most Christians. At least, that is what I see.

 

[EleventhHour]

The Bible teaches chosen according to the foreknowledge of God. The chosen part is not really in question. It is the meaning of what foreknowledge means that is the point of disagreement among most Christians. At least, that is what I see.

"Chosen" is actually the question, I think..

What does that mean to be chosen?

 

[OIC1965]

A person who believes that tenet has incorporated "reformed theology (Calvinism) into their beliefs.

The concept of election as defined is not Calvinism. It is Bible.
1 Peter 1:1-2
Colossians 3:12
2 Timothy 2:10
Ephesians 1:4

 

[OIC1965]

"Chosen" is actually the question, I think..

What does that mean to be chosen?

Ephesians 1:4. Before the foundation of the world.

 

[OIC1965]

"Chosen" is actually the question, I think..

What does that mean to be chosen?

2 Thessalonians 2:13. Chosen for salvation.2:14. Chosen before called.

This is pretty clear. The misunderstanding is how people define foreknowledge.

 

[cv5]

I never said otherwise. What I said is that a certain group that I said I won’t mention is both conservative and evangelical

. That is as far removed from what I said as you can possibly get.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

"I never said all churches are either liberal or reformed".
Everyone who had their wits about them understood what you meant.
This false dichotomy businesses just another red herring.

 

[OIC1965]

disclaimer. I do not claim to have all the answers. I am wrestling with this myself, and it’s not always comfortable. I am not trying to present a view on this, basically I’m giving bits and pieces of what I know

I confess that I have not connected all the dots yet.

 

[OIC1965]

"I never said all churches are either liberal or reformed".
Everyone who had their wits about them understood what you meant.
This false dichotomy businesses just another red herring.

It was my mistake. She wasn’t addressing me. I haven’t gone back and read what she was responding to. I just saw it wasn’t a reply to me. My mistake.

But I think we shouldn’t put labels on people. It’s better to address the arguments biblically and avoid categories. I am speaking to myself as well.

 

[cv5]

A person who believes that tenet has incorporated "reformed theology (Calvinism) into their beliefs.

The realistic, orthodox and scriptural supported alternatives to "reformed theology" are rarer than hens teeth.

That, you see, is your problem.

 

[fredoheaven]

2 Thessalonians 2:13. Chosen for salvation.2:14. Chosen before called.

This is pretty clear. The misunderstanding is how people define foreknowledge.

When is the chosen begins in this passage? Thanks