Not By Works

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OIC1965 said:
I am not a Calvinist, but I think to say Calvinism teaches no choice is a misrepresentation. Calvinism teaches a spiritual resurrection, where God raises the dead sinner to spiritual life and then that person chooses God freely.

It is not a matter of being forced, because a person must choose freely to obey God after they are saved, on a daily basis.

It would be actually being set free from bondage to sin, and God revealed.

I am not going to argue about Calvinism. Just stating this as fact, straight from numerous Calvinist teacher’s mouths.
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That is what I understood by their term "Irresistible grace".

But interesting, what you said about "God raises the dead sinner to spiritual life and then that person chooses God freely."

2 obvious questions that arise from that statement of yours

"If I am not among those raised by God, I cannot choose?"
"If I am among the ones raised by God, I can still reject if I want?" How does this work, in your view?
 
Duskey said:
You mean like the word “world” in John 3:16 doesn’t really mean world? That kind of “coherent” doctrinal statement?
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John 3:16 is very straightforward. The "all"s and "world"s otherwise need a deft touch, or you end up in the ditch.
 
cv5 said:
John 3:16 is very straightforward. The "all"s and "world"s otherwise need a deft touch, or you end up in the ditch.
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To me its straightforward, Jesus came for the whole world yes, but the OT prophetic timetable was that Israel as a nation is to be saved first, before the rest of the gentile world could be reached. (Zechariah 8)

Jesus himself said it at least twice. The clearest was to the gentile lady in Mark's account in Mark 7

27 But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.
 
Guojing said:
That is what I understood by their term "Irresistible grace".

But interesting, what you said about "God raises the dead sinner to spiritual life and then that person chooses God freely."

2 obvious questions that arise from that statement of yours

"If I am not among those raised by God, I cannot choose?"
"If I am among the ones raised by God, I can still reject if I want?" How does this work, in your view?
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I deleted that post, because when I read your post again, I realized that my post did not adequately answer your argument and that you have an interesting point to be discussed. I withdraw it, not because I necessarily agree, but because my response did not address your argument.

I said your argument was a misunderstanding, but on second reading I realized it actually does reflect what Calvinism teaches. I didn’t read it correctly at first.

Again, I am not a Calvinist, so I am answering from their perspective, not mine.

A. In Calvinism, if you are not raised by God, you cannot choose. Because you don’t want to. The Natural man is an enemy of God. Calvinists quote, they that are in the flesh are not subject to the law of God, neither can be. And, they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

B. Calvinism teaches that a person who has been saved cannot fall away. So my quote about obedience was referring to daily walk. The point being that a person must take up his cross daily, not to earn salvation, but because it is what the Lord commands. To anyone who loves God, the fact that He commands something is reason enough. But we have to learn to yield, and that is a daily choice.
 
Duskey said:
Elaborate
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It's simply too lengthy a topic to elaborate fully on a message board.
I have a good sense of it but I certainly couldn't write a book defending my views.
One must conduct a process of elimination using the context and really the whole Bible to begin understand it IMO.

God does certainly love the entire world of all men, but not all men are ultimately saved. Tragically.
 
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cv5 said:
It's simply too lengthy a topic to elaborate fully on a message board.
I have a good sense of it but I certainly couldn't write a book defending my views.
One must conduct a process of elimination using the context and really the whole Bible to begin understand it IMO.

God does certainly love the entire world of all men, but not all men are ultimately saved. Tragically.
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I did not intentionally x your post. Sorry about that.
 
OIC1965 said:
I deleted that post, because when I read your post again, I realized that my post did not adequately answer your argument and that you have an interesting point to be discussed. I withdraw it, not because I necessarily agree, but because my response did not address your argument.

I said your argument was a misunderstanding, but on second reading I realized it actually does reflect what Calvinism teaches. I didn’t read it correctly at first.

Again, I am not a Calvinist, so I am answering from their perspective, not mine.

A. In Calvinism, if you are not raised by God, you cannot choose. Because you don’t want to. The Natural man is an enemy of God. Calvinists quote, they that are in the flesh are not subject to the law of God, neither can be. And, they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

B. Calvinism teaches that a person who has been saved cannot fall away. So my quote about obedience was referring to daily walk. The point being that a person must take up his cross daily, not to earn salvation, but because it is what the Lord commands. To anyone who loves God, the fact that He commands something is reason enough. But we have to learn to yield, and that is a daily choice.
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You keep talking about the Calvinists and Armenian argument is still Going ? ? ? Don't you know that we evangelicals BURIED that Argument back in the early 80's, and somebody keep digging that smelly corpse up.

Maybe I live in a part of the country, were Evangelical type of Christians dominate the majority of Churches. Most of our Evangelical neighbors DO NOT BELIEVE in all pedals of the Evangelical Tulip. I personally only believe in the 3 of the 5 Points of Calvinism.

We Evangelical Type of Denomination's most all of Conservative Churches that would include: Most Baptist denominations - Evangelical Free Churches - Non-Denominational Bible Churches - Non-Denominations Community Churches - Non-Denoninational Bible Fellowship Churches - Grace Brethren Churches - Berean Churches - Church of the Nazarene - A Covenant Order of Evangelical Presbyterians - Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church - Beachy Amish - Belize Evangelical Mennonite Church - Bethel Methodist Church (denomination) - Bible Fellowship Church - Bible Methodist Connection of Tennessee - Bible Missionary Church - Brethren Church - Brethren in Christ Church - and probably a few others that I did not even think of.

NOTICE, I did not count any of the evangelical that are liberal. Just those that are Conservative.
 
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VCO said:
You keep talking about the Calvinists and Armenian argument is still Going ? ? ? Don't you know that we evangelicals BURIED that Argument back in the early 80's, and somebody keep digging that smelly corpse up.

Maybe I live in a part of the country, were Evangelical type of Christians dominate the majority of Churches. Most of our Evangelical neighbors DO NOT BELIEVE in all pedals of the Evangelical Tulip. I personally only believe in the 3 of the 5 Points of Calvinism.

We Evangelical Type of Denomination's most all of Conservative Churches that would include: Most Baptist denominations - Evangelical Free Churches - Non-Denominational Bible Churches - Non-Denominations Community Churches - Non-Denoninational Bible Fellowship Churches - Grace Brethren Churches - Berean Churches - Church of the Nazarene - A Covenant Order of Evangelical Presbyterians - Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church - Beachy Amish - Belize Evangelical Mennonite Church - Bethel Methodist Church (denomination) - Bible Fellowship Church - Bible Methodist Connection of Tennessee - Bible Missionary Church - Brethren Church - Brethren in Christ Church - and probably a few others that I did not even think of.

NOTICE, I did not count any of the evangelical that are liberal. Just those that are Conservative.
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I am a very Conservative and Evangelical Southern Baptist, (though that is just the name of the denomination I am currently part of; I don’t divide along denominational lines), but the my denomination and some of the groups you spoke of are not as conservative as they used to be. The Reformed churches are also Conservative and Evangelical. Reformed are for the most part very conservative and only hypercalvinists are not Evangelical.
 
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Duskey said:
Poisons seep through every crevice.
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Come on man. That statement is a slap in the face for innumerable devoted Christians and a huge swath of excellent evangelical Christian churches who view predestination differently from what you do.
 
cv5 said:
Come on man. That statement is a slap in the face for innumerable devoted Christians and a huge swath of excellent evangelical Christian churches who view predestination differently from what you do.
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Sorry man but calvinism shuts out the Kingdom of Heaven against others by incorrectly causing doubt and destroying the hope of young, vulnerable Christians. I couldn’t care less if my words are deemed a slap in the face to anyone who embraces calvinism.
 
Duskey said:
Sorry man but calvinism shuts out the Kingdom of Heaven against others by incorrectly causing doubt and destroying the hope of young, vulnerable Christians. I couldn’t care less if my words are deemed a slap in the face to anyone who embraces calvinism.
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These people to whom I have been referring to are not "Calvinists". They are conservative reformed Christians which are the bedrock of today's Church. For the most part they produce the fruit of the Spirit, possess the virtues, sobriety, common sense and discipline that Christ would have of them.

You know I have attended a few liberal "it's all about me" Churches in my travels. Quite frankly it gave me the willies and I beat a hasty retreat never to return. Nobody was going to convince me that they were legitimate Christians. Jesus was way way down on the list of priorities.

My concern is that the most vehement detractors of reformed theology on this board fit the liberal Church profile. A mixture of ignorance denial and rebellion in many cases.
 
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