The End, the A.C., Revelation and the rest of it.

[Nebuchadnezzer]

Who is the beast that "was,and is not,and is about to ascend"? That is it had existed prior to Revelation but did not when the angel explained it to John back then in Revelation. When did it receive it's deadly wound, prior to John receiving the Revelation? https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/17-8.htm

The beast is not one man or one empire. neither is the false prophet just one man or one religious insitution.

The beast and false prophet are a repeating attack strategy that the demonic powers have and will continue to use to deceive and control the world until Christ Returns.

One example of this is the Islamic State. This is where Islam (false prophet) and government (beast) are intertwined. Saudi Arabia has a King (Beast) who appoints the most senior and influential religious leader called the Grand Mufti (false prophet). Iran has a supreme religious leader (false prophet) who appoints the government (beast)

In general the beast and false prophet work in tandem. But what this verse is telling us is that there will be a period of time where the beast will not exist and the false prophet will work to deceive without the force and oppression of the beast.

One example today where the beast is not is with the secular Islamic country of Turkey which has/had a secular democratic government and therefore for a time the Beast was not in Turkey. The false prophet of Islam has always remained in Turkey though. Today, however, Their leader Erdogon is becoming like a king (beast) as he is moving Turkey back toward becoming like an authoritarian Islamic State. Thus the beast is yet to come.

Anyone follow?

 

[iamsoandso]

The beast is not one man or one empire. neither is the false prophet just one man or one religious insitution.

The beast and false prophet are a repeating attack strategy that the demonic powers have and will continue to use to deceive and control the world until Christ Returns.

One example of this is the Islamic Stat.e. This is where Islam (false prophet) and government (beast) are intertwined. Saudi Arabia has a King (Beast) who appoints the most senior and influential religious leader called the Grand Mufti (false prophet). Iran has a supreme religious leader (false prophet) who appoints the government (beast)

In general the beast and false prophet work in tandem. But what this verse is telling us is that there will be a period of time where the beast will not exist and the false prophet will work to deceive without the force and oppression of the beast.

One example today where the beast is not is with the secular Islamic country of Turkey which has/had a secular democratic government and therefore for a time the Beast was not in Turkey. The false prophet of Islam has always remained in Turkey though. Today, however, Their leader Erdogon is becoming like a king as he is moving Turkey back toward becoming like an authoritarian Islamic State. Thus the beast is yet to come.

Anyone follow?

no, Jesus said it would receive a deadly wound and it did and the earth decided to give it it's life back and did just like the Scriptures say and will pay the price for it.

 

[GaryA]

Who is the beast that "was,and is not,and is about to ascend"? That is it had existed prior to Revelation but did not when the angel explained it to John back then in Revelation. When did it receive it's deadly wound, prior to John receiving the Revelation? https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/17-8.htm

A beast is a kingdom, it existed before Rev. 17:8 was penned but was wounded by the time the angel explained it to John and has already ascended and is present now but you haven't looked for it because you look to defend your camps position so hard. The earth already said let us make an image of it,and did it. It would be in what your explaining now instead of somewhere in the future in your speech if you looked for it and found it.

Now your a little closer with tenses,your just not seeing it present tense because you think it's future and so never thought to look for it now.

Rome existed when the Revelation was given but then so did Egypt,Greece,Persia and the others. Who received a deadly wound and was not and who did the earth say let us make and image of and do it,and do they see it as God ordained and worship it?

It's what all the peterist and the futurist,amils ect. debate over all the day long. It's sitting right in front of their faces but being stubborn and protecting their camps blinds them all. It received a deadly wound and did not exist and then the futurist decided to bring it back and did. It will conquer the whole earth now.

No on the contrary one of the posters named it and said when it ascended out of the pit in this very thread but did not understand what they said was true of the eighth.

It's not an allegory...it's literal.

And because you have looked at this for so long and do perceive it literal I am of the mind that if I ask you these things you will continue to look for it literal.

no, Jesus said it would receive a deadly wound and it did and the earth decided to give it it's life back and did just like the Scriptures say and will pay the price for it.

If we were to decide or determine that Revelation was written before 70 A.D. - does your idea still hold true?

 

[iamsoandso]

If we were to decide or determine that Revelation was written before 70 A.D. - does your idea still hold true?

Look at the nine post you quoted and make a determination...

 

[Corban]

Just curios, what does Romans 9 have to do with the 144,000? If you are implying that they are the remnant of Israel, they are not. The woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars of Rev.12 is representing the unbelieving nation of Israel. She/Israel gives birth to a male child, which is collective name representing the 144,000 who will acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah. 144,000 believing Israelites coming out of the unbelieving nation of Israel, is the figurative meaning her 'giving birth to.' This is also supported in Rev.14 regarding the 144,000 which says "these are those who did not defile themselves with woman," which would infer that they are all males, ergo, male child.

All that said, the male child/144,000 are caught up to God and His throne right around the same time as Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven, which takes place around the middle of the seven years. The woman/unbelieving Israel, who gives birth to them, flees out into the desert where she will be cared for during the 1260 days which is that last 3 1/2 years of the seven year period. During this time, I personally believe that unbelieving Israel will recognize Jesus as their Messiah by saying "blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord."

I appreciate your take on the matter. I also appreciate that you cannot document each statement. But giving no scriptures makes it difficult to debate.

To shorten my answer (for you covered a lot of ground there) I will just show some salient facts, which, if true, cast doubt on your understanding. The first is the 144,000 of Revelation 7. They are Israelites since they come from the 12 Tribes. Why Dan is missing no expositor can satisfactorily answer. But they are NOT SAVED. They are SEALED so that the effects of the Great Tribulation do not kill them (Revelation 9:4). This the Lord did 2,500 years before in Ezekiel 9:4-6. Added to this, Romans Chapter 11:24-32 says that Israel is "blind" and "concluded by God in UNBELIEF UNTIL the times of the Gentiles are come in". There can no be talk of "acknowledging Jesus as their Messiah" till after Armageddon, at which event Gentile rule ends. Further, In 2nd Cor.5:17, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new", there cannot be BELIEVING Jews, for the OLD is passed away, and ALL things are NEW. A Jew IN Christ by FAITH is not a Jew anymore. This is confirmed by Galatians 3:28 and Colossians 3:11. Finally, Israel will gain their Land because they were under Abraham's Covenant and not because they believe in Christ. The prerequisite for restoration is in Deuteronomy 30:1-5 - a return to the Law of Moses. And for these reasons they are ON EARTH but protected from that which hurts the earth. The 144,000 of Revelation 14 are in heaven. They cannot be the same company.

Next, although the Woman of Revelation Chapter 12 bears some similarities to Josephs dream in Genesis 37, the differences are many. Here are some:

1. Israel was never in heaven - the Woman of Rev.12 is
2. Israel is real. The Woman is a "sign"
3. There was no woman in Joseph's dream. His mother was represented by the moon
4. Joseph's mother was one of FOUR women who brought forth Israel
5. In Gen.37 the sun is Jacob - In Rev.12 the sun is the clothing of the Woman
6. In Gen.37 the moon is one of four Women - In Rev.12 the moon is a footstool
7. In Gen.37 stars are son's of Jacob - In Rev.12 stars are a crown
8. A crown is for ruling - in Gen.37 only one star ruled and the other served
9. Israel cannot be the stars for they (Israel) forfeit rule (Matt.21:43)
10. Israel is in chastisement for idolatry. How could she bring forth saved Israelites?
11. Israel are idolaters. How could they bring forth seed "that has the testimony of Jesus Christ"
12. How could Israel, who is divorced from God, bring forth the Bride of Christ

These 12 points make it impossible for the student of scripture to equate fallen, disowned, divorced and unrepentant Israel with a heavenly Woman. The Woman fits only one other Woman in scripture - New Jerusalem. These are the facts: The Woman is heavenly but on earth. So is New Jerusalem (Rev.21.2). New Jerusalem is a "sign" (She is City, Bride, Wife, Tabernacle and glory of God all at the same time). The Woman brings forth THREE seeds. (i) The Man-child who is the Overcomers (Rev.2:27, 12:5, 11). (ii) Those who have the testimony of Jesus but who are left on earth during the Great Tribulation (12:17). And (iii) those who keep the commandments of God - the Jewish remnant of Deuteronomy 30:1-5 mentioned above. Only in New Jerusalem we see these three again with the Christians as the Walls and Israel as the Gates. And finally, in the Book of Galatians, Israel and the Church are continuously CONTRASTED. In 4:22-26 they are again CONTRASTED, but verse 26 says that though they be so different as Sarah to Hagar, so different as bondage is to freedom, NEVERTHELESS Jerusalem ABOVE is Mother us ALL (both parties).

I respectfully propose that the Woman of Revelation Chapter 12 is New Jerusalem before she is consummated - or perfected in Revelation 21 and 22.

I will leave off here because long posts are not read. Go well bro - and God bless.

Israel never travailed in the birth of 144,000

 

[cv5]

OK, but The Feast of Dedication, today Hanukkah, once also called "Feast of the Maccabees," was a Jewish festival observed for eight days from the 25th of Kislev (usually in December, but occasionally late November, due to the lunisolar calendar).

It was instituted in the year 165 B.C. by Judas Maccabeus, his brothers, and the elders of the congregation of Israel in commemoration of the reconsecration of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem, and especially of the altar of burnt offerings, after they had been desecrated during the persecution under Antiochus Epiphanes ..

The Book of Macccabees is not bible unless you're Catholic. Are you Catholic?
thus the Feast of the Maccabees was not commanded by God. It is man made unless you consider the Book of Maccabees to be God's inspired word. Do you?

Therefore I remain in my current stance that the Feast of Dedication is not biblical or God-commanded, but is man-made.

Agreed not God commanded but man made.

 

[GaryA]

Look at the nine post you quoted and make a determination...

Well - I already had an idea about what I should expect you to say; however, I was hoping for a more definitive answer. (i.e. - "I just wanted to hear it from the horses mouth." - so to speak)

 

[iamsoandso]

Well - I already had an idea about what I should expect you to say; however, I was hoping for a more definitive answer. (i.e. - "I just wanted to hear it from the horses mouth." - so to speak)

Gary I think that if someone was peterist in position then they would defend the "before ad70" writing of Revelation because if it was written after ad70 then preterism would be proven false because they believe Revelation was fulfilled by the DoJ/Temple in ad70. On the other hand if one is futurist(many different camps of futurist) then some see Revelation written before ad70 and so ome believe it was written after ad70.

So then if you are an futurist it would not make any difference if Revelation was written before ad70 or after,,,(unless),,, Revelation 17:8 https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/17-8.htm is in reference to the DoJ. So then if one believes that Revelation was penned before ad70 (whether preterist or futurist) then if in Revelation 17:8 the beast that "was,is not,,ect." is in the pit then it would have suffered that deadly wound "prior to the writing of Rev.17:8"(angel says it's in the pit at that time) and one would need to find a head that received an deadly wound prior to ad70.

I think the friction/shock is that the scriptures (Rev.13:6) state that they would blaspheme the name of God and the temple/tabernacle and in Rev.13:11 this two horned beast looks like a lamb( of God?) but speaks like a dragon https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/13.htm ...

So then it is apparent that if this head that received the wound blasphemes Gods name it calls it's self after Gods name. So it doesn't rise one day and call it's self "the kingdom of the devil" but instead ,,,"Israel",,,(called after my name/the Scriptures) and looks like a lamb(people see it Holy/of God) but it speaks like a dragon. It has "two horns", (existed twice) and it was destroyed in ad70 and healed in 1948.

The thing is though that it seems that I am speaking evil of Gods Holy Israel when I am not. I Love both God and Israel but am also aware that in Scripture it states that the devil will deceive many in this. They are not all of Israel just because they say so https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans 9:6-7&version=KJV and as it seems from the Scriptures they will say they are and blaspheme both Gods name and tabernacle. There is a real true God and Israel and an imposter explained to you all in Scripture is it wrong that I warn any of you to examine those who say they are Israel?

You see you may think you will not face Gods wrath but if you worship the image and receive that mark you will. The imposters kingdom is removed at the Lords coming and there is an Israel with our Lord Jesus as our/it's king, but there is also prior to that an imposter. The Israel in your mind's(one that's true) comes "after" the one the imposter sets up.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I appreciate your take on the matter. I also appreciate that you cannot document each statement. But giving no scriptures makes it difficult to debate.

To shorten my answer (for you covered a lot of ground there) I will just show some salient facts, which, if true, cast doubt on your understanding. The first is the 144,000 of Revelation 7. They are Israelites since they come from the 12 Tribes. Why Dan is missing no expositor can satisfactorily answer.

I have kept an eye out as I continue to understand why Dan is not included in the list of those who are sealed. Some have suggested from most likely reading someone else's teachings, that it was because of Dan's idol worship. The problem with this is that all of the tribes of Israel were guilty of idol worship. So that doesn't answer the question.

However, that Dan is missing from the list, does not diminish the fact that these are true Israelites 12,000 from each tribe, with Joseph's son Manasseh replacing Dan. People adopted that false teaching that since Dan is missing, then the information is allegorical. That's like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. In other words, just because Dan is missing does not mean that it is not to be interpreted literally.

But they are NOT SAVED. They are SEALED so that the effects of the Great Tribulation do not kill them (Revelation 9:4).

Once again, we need to bring in all of the scriptures when forming a conclusion. The fact is that these 144,000 are saved is revealed in Rev.14 as they those who are redeemed from the earth:

"Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads."

"No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

The word redeemed in the scripture above, means to that those 144,000 were purchased by the blood of the Lamb. In addition, the fact that these 144,000 have the Lamb's and God the Father's name written on their forehead, demonstrates that they are saved.

[Chapter 11:24-32 says that Israel is "blind"[/quote]

The nation Israel is has been blinded. The 144,000 is a specific group elected by God during the end times. As I said, the unbelieving nation of Israel will be giving birth to 144,000 believing Israelites.

Next, although the Woman of Revelation Chapter 12 bears some similarities to Josephs dream in Genesis 37, the differences are many. Here are some:

1. Israel was never in heaven - the Woman of Rev.12 is
2. Israel is real. The Woman is a "sign"
3. There was no woman in Joseph's dream. His mother was represented by the moon
4. Joseph's mother was one of FOUR women who brought forth Israel
5. In Gen.37 the sun is Jacob - In Rev.12 the sun is the clothing of the Woman
6. In Gen.37 the moon is one of four Women - In Rev.12 the moon is a footstool
7. In Gen.37 stars are son's of Jacob - In Rev.12 stars are a crown
8. A crown is for ruling - in Gen.37 only one star ruled and the other served
9. Israel cannot be the stars for they (Israel) forfeit rule (Matt.21:43)
10. Israel is in chastisement for idolatry. How could she bring forth saved Israelites?
11. Israel are idolaters. How could they bring forth seed "that has the testimony of Jesus Christ"
12. How could Israel, who is divorced from God, bring forth the Bride of Christ

That is how symbolism works, i.e. something symbolic representing something that is literal.

God symbolically described Israel using the same symbols found in Joseph's dream in order to give the reader understanding of who the woman is symbolically representing.

* The woman is symbolic

* Her being pregnant is symbolic

* Her giving birth is symbolic

* The dragon with seven heads, ten horns and ten crowns is symbolic

symbolism representing what is literal

These 12 points make it impossible for the student of scripture to equate fallen, disowned, divorced and unrepentant Israel with a heavenly Woman. The Woman fits only one other Woman in scripture - New Jerusalem. These are the facts: The Woman is heavenly but on earth. So is New Jerusalem (Rev.21.2). New Jerusalem is a "sign" (She is City, Bride, Wife, Tabernacle and glory of God all at the same time). The Woman brings forth THREE seeds. (i) The Man-child who is the Overcomers (Rev.2:27, 12:5, 11). (ii) Those who have the testimony of Jesus but who are left on earth during the Great Tribulation (12:17). And (iii) those who keep the commandments of God - the Jewish remnant of Deuteronomy 30:1-5 mentioned above. Only in New Jerusalem we see these three again with the Christians as the Walls and Israel as the Gates. And finally, in the Book of Galatians, Israel and the Church are continuously CONTRASTED. In 4:22-26 they are again CONTRASTED, but verse 26 says that though they be so different as Sarah to Hagar, so different as bondage is to freedom, NEVERTHELESS Jerusalem ABOVE is Mother us ALL (both parties).

I'll stick with the clues that God gave, which is Genesis 37:9-10 where the sun, moon and eleven stars, as being the same symbolism as the woman who is clothed with the Son, with the moon under feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars.

Jacob identified the sun as himself, the moon representing his wife/wives and the stars representing his sons. Collectively, they represent Israel.

Israel never travailed in the birth of 144,000

Correct! Israel never travailed in the birth of 144,000, but her giving birth to the 144,000 is a future event, not past.

 

[JonathanBeWell]

"The elect" are not only deceived but deceive others.

Matthew 24:21-24
21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

"The elect" are not only deceived but deceive others.

 

[JonathanBeWell]

 

[Truth7t7]

The beast is not one man or one empire. neither is the false prophet just one man or one religious insitution.

The beast and false prophet are a repeating attack strategy that the demonic powers have and will continue to use to deceive and control the world until Christ Returns.

One example of this is the Islamic State. This is where Islam (false prophet) and government (beast) are intertwined. Saudi Arabia has a King (Beast) who appoints the most senior and influential religious leader called the Grand Mufti (false prophet). Iran has a supreme religious leader (false prophet) who appoints the government (beast)

In general the beast and false prophet work in tandem. But what this verse is telling us is that there will be a period of time where the beast will not exist and the false prophet will work to deceive without the force and oppression of the beast.

One example today where the beast is not is with the secular Islamic country of Turkey which has/had a secular democratic government and therefore for a time the Beast was not in Turkey. The false prophet of Islam has always remained in Turkey though. Today, however, Their leader Erdogon is becoming like a king (beast) as he is moving Turkey back toward becoming like an authoritarian Islamic State. Thus the beast is yet to come.

Anyone follow?

The Beast will be a (Human Man) and his body will be cast into the burning flame.

Daniel 7:9-11KJV
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

The Beast will be a (Human Man) and his body will be cast into the burning flame.

Daniel 7:9-11KJV
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

The beast is a metaphor, and so "his body" can also be a metaphor.

Biblical Prophesy is testimony without witness. No man can understand biblical prophesy until they match it correctly with the testimony of a 2nd witness. The 2nd witness is the historical record. The whole of God's Word works on witness and testimony from at least two sources. Your future predictions are just speculations because they lack a 2nd witness or testimony. Therefore, they are not to be trusted.

 

[cv5]

I appreciate your take on the matter. I also appreciate that you cannot document each statement. But giving no scriptures makes it difficult to debate.

To shorten my answer (for you covered a lot of ground there) I will just show some salient facts, which, if true, cast doubt on your understanding. The first is the 144,000 of Revelation 7. They are Israelites since they come from the 12 Tribes. Why Dan is missing no expositor can satisfactorily answer. But they are NOT SAVED. They are SEALED so that the effects of the Great Tribulation do not kill them (Revelation 9:4). This the Lord did 2,500 years before in Ezekiel 9:4-6. Added to this, Romans Chapter 11:24-32 says that Israel is "blind" and "concluded by God in UNBELIEF UNTIL the times of the Gentiles are come in". There can no be talk of "acknowledging Jesus as their Messiah" till after Armageddon, at which event Gentile rule ends. Further, In 2nd Cor.5:17, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new", there cannot be BELIEVING Jews, for the OLD is passed away, and ALL things are NEW. A Jew IN Christ by FAITH is not a Jew anymore. This is confirmed by Galatians 3:28 and Colossians 3:11. Finally, Israel will gain their Land because they were under Abraham's Covenant and not because they believe in Christ. The prerequisite for restoration is in Deuteronomy 30:1-5 - a return to the Law of Moses. And for these reasons they are ON EARTH but protected from that which hurts the earth. The 144,000 of Revelation 14 are in heaven. They cannot be the same company.

Next, although the Woman of Revelation Chapter 12 bears some similarities to Josephs dream in Genesis 37, the differences are many. Here are some:

1. Israel was never in heaven - the Woman of Rev.12 is
2. Israel is real. The Woman is a "sign"
3. There was no woman in Joseph's dream. His mother was represented by the moon
4. Joseph's mother was one of FOUR women who brought forth Israel
5. In Gen.37 the sun is Jacob - In Rev.12 the sun is the clothing of the Woman
6. In Gen.37 the moon is one of four Women - In Rev.12 the moon is a footstool
7. In Gen.37 stars are son's of Jacob - In Rev.12 stars are a crown
8. A crown is for ruling - in Gen.37 only one star ruled and the other served
9. Israel cannot be the stars for they (Israel) forfeit rule (Matt.21:43)
10. Israel is in chastisement for idolatry. How could she bring forth saved Israelites?
11. Israel are idolaters. How could they bring forth seed "that has the testimony of Jesus Christ"
12. How could Israel, who is divorced from God, bring forth the Bride of Christ

These 12 points make it impossible for the student of scripture to equate fallen, disowned, divorced and unrepentant Israel with a heavenly Woman. The Woman fits only one other Woman in scripture - New Jerusalem. These are the facts: The Woman is heavenly but on earth. So is New Jerusalem (Rev.21.2). New Jerusalem is a "sign" (She is City, Bride, Wife, Tabernacle and glory of God all at the same time). The Woman brings forth THREE seeds. (i) The Man-child who is the Overcomers (Rev.2:27, 12:5, 11). (ii) Those who have the testimony of Jesus but who are left on earth during the Great Tribulation (12:17). And (iii) those who keep the commandments of God - the Jewish remnant of Deuteronomy 30:1-5 mentioned above. Only in New Jerusalem we see these three again with the Christians as the Walls and Israel as the Gates. And finally, in the Book of Galatians, Israel and the Church are continuously CONTRASTED. In 4:22-26 they are again CONTRASTED, but verse 26 says that though they be so different as Sarah to Hagar, so different as bondage is to freedom, NEVERTHELESS Jerusalem ABOVE is Mother us ALL (both parties).

I respectfully propose that the Woman of Revelation Chapter 12 is New Jerusalem before she is consummated - or perfected in Revelation 21 and 22.

I will leave off here because long posts are not read. Go well bro - and God bless.

Israel never travailed in the birth of 144,000

The 144,000 are most certainly saved......they are are Israelite "firstfruits".
Not much wiggle room there!

Rev 14:4
These are they who have not been defiled with women; for they are pure, these following the Lamb wherever He shall go. These have been redeemed out from men as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

The beast is not one man or one empire. neither is the false prophet just one man or one religious insitution.

The beast and false prophet are a repeating attack strategy that the demonic powers have and will continue to use to deceive and control the world until Christ Returns.

One example of this is the Islamic State. This is where Islam (false prophet) and government (beast) are intertwined. Saudi Arabia has a King (Beast) who appoints the most senior and influential religious leader called the Grand Mufti (false prophet). Iran has a supreme religious leader (false prophet) who appoints the government (beast)

In general the beast and false prophet work in tandem. But what this verse is telling us is that there will be a period of time where the beast will not exist and the false prophet will work to deceive without the force and oppression of the beast.

One example today where the beast is not is with the secular Islamic country of Turkey which has/had a secular democratic government and therefore for a time the Beast was not in Turkey. The false prophet of Islam has always remained in Turkey though. Today, however, Their leader Erdogon is becoming like a king (beast) as he is moving Turkey back toward becoming like an authoritarian Islamic State. Thus the beast is yet to come.

Anyone follow?

Islam fits into the Beast and False Prophet model which is Religion and State.
The plague of Islam which functions as beast and false prophet have been explicitly foretold of in Rev 16: 12-16

(Testimony, 1st witness)
Rev 16:12-16
The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 13 Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”
16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.


(Historical Record, 2nd witness)
Today, many Muslim countries have incorporated Islamic law, wholly or in part, into their legal systems. Certain Muslim states have declared Islam to be their state religion in their constitutions, but do not apply Islamic law in their courts. Islamic states which are not Islamic monarchies are usually referred to as Islamic republics.

The first Islamic State was the political entity established by Muhammad in Medina in 622 CE, under the Constitution of Medina. It represented the political unity of the Muslim Ummah (nation). It was subsequently transformed into the caliphate by Muhammad's disciples, who were known as the Rightly Guided (Rashidun) Caliphs (632–661 CE). The Islamic State significantly expanded under the Umayyad Caliphate (661–750) and consequently the Abbasid Caliphate (750–1258).

A caliphate (Arabic: خِلَافَة‎ khilāfah) is an Islamic state under the leadership of an Islamic steward with the title of caliph (/ˈkælɪf, ˈkeɪ-/; Arabic: خَلِيفَة‎ can also be small groups within a country. khalīfah,

pronunciation (help·info)), a person considered a politico-religious successor to the Islamic prophet Muhammad and a leader of the entire Muslim Community (ummah).[1] Historically, the caliphates were polities based on Islam which developed into multi-ethnic trans-national empires.[2] During the medieval period, three major caliphates succeeded each other: the Rashidun Caliphate (632–661), the Umayyad Caliphate (661–750), the Abbasid Caliphate (750–1258). In the fourth major caliphate, the Ottoman Caliphate, the rulers of the Ottoman Empire claimed caliphal authority from 1517. Throughout the history of Islam, a few other Muslim states, almost all hereditary monarchies, such as the Mamluk Sultanate (Cairo) and Ayyubid Caliphate[3][4] have claimed to be caliphates.[1]

 

[cv5]

The beast is a metaphor, and so "his body" can also be a metaphor.

Biblical Prophesy is testimony without witness. No man can understand biblical prophesy until they match it correctly with the testimony of a 2nd witness. The 2nd witness is the historical record. The whole of God's Word works on witness and testimony from at least two sources. Your future predictions are just speculations because they lack a 2nd witness or testimony. Therefore, they are not to be trusted.

That doesn't make sense. When the prophecy is written and not yet fulfilled, your rule would make it invalid. And don't argue that all prophecy has been fulfilled because it's certainly has not been fulfilled, for Israel has not yet received her Messiah.

 

[Jimbone]

Hello DWR! Don't be sad. If you disagree with any of the truths that I have listed above, I would be happy to go over them with you and explain the reasoning in detail using all the relevant scriptures.

Your arrogance is unbelievable in this area. I know you are well studied and KNOW end times backwards and forwards, but to present yourself as being the source of understanding on these matters like you just did would be laughable if it wasn't so tragic. How many hours have you spent on end time bull rather than proclaiming the gospel to someone? Please understand I am not saying you don't evangelize, heck you may very well be out there 10x more than you deal with this subject, but I'd never know that because you are always here only talking about an end of the age that already took place from my point of view, but honestly this isn't my point. My point here is concerning the kingdom and what Jesus called us to do and MAKE DISCIPLES OF ALL NATIONS, that's it. Never does He charge us with knowing and warning everyone of these things you're so sure of. As a matter of fact lets look at scripture so you can't write me of based solely on that.

Mat. 24
35Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away. 36 No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father...
Oh yes the Father, oh and Ahwatukee has it all figured out too.

Right? Wasn't that right? Seems in your head it is with the way you share here.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

That doesn't make sense. When the prophecy is written and not yet fulfilled, your rule would make it invalid. And don't argue that all prophecy has been fulfilled because it's certainly has not been fulfilled, for Israel has not yet received her Messiah.

Was the Passover invalid when it was written? No, yet it was not understood. What is the full significance and meaning of the passover lamb, the unleavened bread, and the marking the door posts with the lamb's blood? Ahhhh, It is all foreshadowing and prophesing the final and sufficent sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross.

No one can or could fully understand the former witness (Passover) until they matched it with the latter witness (Crucifixion). You disagree?

This is the same way that future prophesy on the beast and false prophet work. No on can fully understand these prophesies until after they are fulfilled and matched correctly to another witness (the historical record).

Am I saying that all biblical prophesy has been fulfilled? NO!!!!!!! I am saying it can't be understood (or fully understood) until after the prophesy is fulfilled.

So Revelation is partially fulfilled. The parts which have already been fulfilled can be correctly matched to the historical record and only then understood. But the parts not yet fulfilled remain a mystery.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

for Israel has not yet received her Messiah.

Yes, Israel received their Messiah, Jesus! But they rejected Jesus.

Acts 28:28 “Therefore I want you to know that God’s salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!”

 

[JonathanBeWell]

I believe this was/is me. Things are getting better as I seek the true face of God more diligently. I continue to repent, worship, sing praises, soak in scripture and pray in Jesus Christ's name more and more. God is drawing me nearer.