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The End, the A.C., Revelation and the rest of it.
- Thread starter JonathanBeWell
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Greetings iamsoandso,
First of all, it is important to understand that throughout chapters 1 thru 3 the word 'ekkesia' translated as 'church' is used 19 times. Then after that it is never used during the narrative of God's wrath. It is replaced with 'hagios' translated as 'Saints.' This is not a coincidence, but is a God-given clue which demonstrates that the church is no longer on the earth from that point forward.
So, the last time the church is mentioned is at the end of chapter 3, then in chapter 4:1 we have John hearing a voice that sounds like a trumpet which is identified in Rev.1:10 as the voice of the Lord, which says "come up here and I will show you what must take place after this." The 'what must take after this, is synonymous with the 'what must take place later' stated in Rev.1:19.
In Rev.1:19, John is told to write:
* What you have seen
* What is now
* What will take place later
Many just read right over this not realizing that this is the key to understanding the chronology of Revelation.
What you have seen = Everything that John wrote from Rev.1:1 to 1:19
What is now = Represented by the letters to the seven churches, which also represents the entire church period
What will take place later = Everything that takes place after the 'what is now' i.e. what takes place after the church period.
That said, we are still living in the 'what is now' part of what John was told to write. Once the Lord appears and gathers His church, this will end the 'what is now' and the 'what must take place later' will begin, which is the time of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
Therefore, when John hears that voice that sounds like a trumpet saying "come up here and I will show you what must take place after this," it is a prophetic allusion to where the church is caught up to be gathered to the Lord. After that we never see the word church again until Rev.22:16. As previously mentioned, the word changes from 'church' to 'saints' after this and that because the church is removed at Rev.4:1. The saints referred to, are those who will not have been ready when the church is gathered, but will become believers after the gathering of the church and during the time of God's wrath. These are those who will eventually come out of the great tribulation and who the beast will make war against and conquer, as described in Rev.7:9-17 and 13:5-7.
I would also mention that, 'the voice that sounds like a trumpet' is another clue which is pointing I Thess.4:16 where it is stated that the Lord himself will descend with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel and the trumpet of God. Many translations have it as "the trumpet call of God" which I believe is synonymous with the Lords voice which will sound like a trumpet as mentioned in Rev.4:1
All of the above said, the church will not even enter into the time period when the antichrist/beast is revealed. They will not be on the earth when that head (eighth king) receives his fatal wound and survives. For one thing, that event takes place well into the time of God's wrath of which the church cannot be present for because believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, nor are they even mentioned in the narrative.
By the way, that eighth king is the beast who will come up out of the Abyss, as described from the following:
"The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction."
This beast is that king, the angel of the Abyss who is released along with his horde of locust demons at the sounding of the fifth trumpet. This beast will be the spiritual power behind the man of lawlessness who, as his title suggests, will be a literal human being. It is this same beast who after he comes up out of the Abyss kills the two witnesses.
"Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them."
"The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction.
Once was = at some previous time in history prior to John's writing of Revelation, the beast/angel was not in the Abyss but was out in the world. He was most likely a ruling power behind another human ruler.
Now is not = At the time that John was receiving the information from the angel, the beast was currently locked up in the Abyss.
And yet will come = At the sounding of the 5th trumpet, that beast/angel who is the king of those demons resembling locusts, will come up out of the Abyss and will be the spiritual power behind the man of lawlessness.
"They had tails with stingers, like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months. They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek is Apollyon (that is, Destroyer).
A beast is a kingdom, it existed before Rev. 17:8 was penned but was wounded by the time the angel explained it to John and has already ascended and is present now but you haven't looked for it because you look to defend your camps position so hard. The earth already said let us make an image of it,and did it. It would be in what your explaining now instead of somewhere in the future in your speech if you looked for it and found it.
Now your a little closer with tenses,your just not seeing it present tense because you think it's future and so never thought to look for it now.
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Just curios, what does Romans 9 have to do with the 144,000? If you are implying that they are the remnant of Israel, they are not. The woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars of Rev.12 is representing the unbelieving nation of Israel. She/Israel gives birth to a male child, which is collective name representing the 144,000 who will acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah. 144,000 believing Israelites coming out of the unbelieving nation of Israel, is the figurative meaning her 'giving birth to.' This is also supported in Rev.14 regarding the 144,000 which says "these are those who did not defile themselves with woman," which would infer that they are all males, ergo, male child.
All that said, the male child/144,000 are caught up to God and His throne right around the same time as Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven, which takes place around the middle of the seven years. The woman/unbelieving Israel, who gives birth to them, flees out into the desert where she will be cared for during the 1260 days which is that last 3 1/2 years of the seven year period. During this time, I personally believe that unbelieving Israel will recognize Jesus as their Messiah by saying "blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord."
Saints '(hagios) make up the spiritual house of God the church (ekkesia') She is made up of many lively stones. . The bride of Christ is never removed from the tribulation. . . the persecution of the saints . The first century reformation brought the great tribulation one like never before or ever again .
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All things written in the law and the prophets is still doing its work of restoring the government of God back to the period of Judges .Which was before the abomination of desolation .Kings in Israel. The promise of Joel was fulfilled in Acts 2 .Men and woman prophets from all the nations of the world as a kingdom of priests preaching the gospel
The signified understanding used in parables must be applied .It is why it is given at the opening of the last chapter Revelation.
Revelation 1 King James Version (KJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
It has to be future, because none of those events have yet taken place. The eighth king is that future king, the angel of the Abyss who is released at the sounding of the 5th trumpet. Since the 1st seal has yet to be opened, then the 5th trumpet certainly could not have yet been sounded which follows the fourth trumpet, etc.
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First of all, I belong to no camp, for the information that I post is from my own studies. In other words, I am not siding with anyone's teaching. I am not looking hard to defend any camp, but contending for God's word. The image of the beast has not yet been made and that because the beast that it is copied from has not yet been revealed. As I stated in previous post, the image is synonymous with the abomination that will be set up in the temple, both referring to an idolatrous image.
Though you are correct in that the beast represents a kingdom, it also represents that kingdoms ruler. Also, when the angel said regarding the beast 'now is not' it meant that at the time when John received that information that the beast was still in the Abyss. His coming up out of the Abyss is still future and will take place at the sounding of the 5th trumpet. You can't have any of these events as already taking place, because we have yet to see the first seal opened. And that can't be opened until the church is gone. You're putting the cart before the horse.
Regarding the beast being a kingdom, when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, scriptures states that the beast and the false prophet are captured and the two of them are thrown alive into the lake of fire. Notice that the scripture identifies them as being two individuals who are thrown alive into the lake of fire. That would not fit with your claim that the beast is referring to a kingdom.
The earth does not say "let us make an image of it." It is that second beast, the false prophet, who will have the inhabitants of the earth make that image in honor of the first beast whose fatal wound will have been healed. Believe me, these events have not yet taken place. If they had, we would have already seen all of the seals and some of the trumpet judgments, which we haven't and that because the church can't be here for them.
In addition, if all of these things have already happened, then we should have also seen the mark of the beast, which we haven't. The technology for the mark has been evolving for many years and just recently people have been in the process of receiving an RFID chip under the skin of the hand with which they are able to make electronic purchases.
No my friend, the wrath of God is about to begin. But before that can happen the Lord will come to remove His church, with His wrath to follow. Everything from Rev.4:1 are future events which will fulfill the "what must take place later" part of what John was told to write.
It's what all the peterist and the futurist,amils ect. debate over all the day long. It's sitting right in front of their faces but being stubborn and protecting their camps blinds them all. It received a deadly wound and did not exist and then the futurist decided to bring it back and did. It will conquer the whole earth now.
Your error is the same as those who hold to a historical view, which is to allegorize the information in Revelation, instead of applying a literal interpretation to it.
No on the contrary one of the posters named it and said when it ascended out of the pit in this very thread but did not understand what they said was true of the eighth.
The purpose of that head receiving that fatal wound, will be for the purpose of deceiving the inhabitants of the earth by his claiming to be God. At the same time, the false prophet will be performing miracles, signs and wonders, even causing fire to come down from heave to the earth, for the purpose of giving credibility to the first beast. These will be two individuals who will be performing these things.
The first and second beast will be literal men, with the man of lawlessness/antichrist, being empowered by that angel/beast who will come up out of the Abyss. These are future events.
The first seal rider on the white horse who goes out to conquer and is bent on conquest, is representing the emergence of the antichrist, whom we have not yet seen.
The second seal rider on the red horse is given power to take peace from the earth so that men kill one another. This will be world-wide and will continue until Christ returns.
The third seal rider on the black horse is world-wide famine. When have we seen this take place?
The fourth seal on the pale green horse is death with hades who are given authority to kill a fourth of the earths existing population. When have we seen this much death?
At the opening of the sixth seal the heavens are opened up so that the inhabitants of the earth will be able to see God sitting on His throne, which will cause them to call to the mountains and rocks to fall on them to hide them from the face of Him who sits on the throne. When has this taken place? That would be, never!
I could go on through the rest of the trumpet judgments, which also have not yet taken place.
The world and many Christians have no idea what is soon to come upon this earth. By the time All of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments have completed, the majority of the earths population will have been decimated and all human government dismantled in preparation for the Lord's millennial kingdom on this current earth.
It is not literal if you are claiming that these things have already taken place. You would have to have literal fulfillment of these events in order to make that claim.
When have we seen the Abyss opened and demonic beings released?
And because you have looked at this for so long and do perceive it literal I am of the mind that if I ask you these things you will continue to look for it literal.
OK, but The Feast of Dedication, today Hanukkah, once also called "Feast of the Maccabees," was a Jewish festival observed for eight days from the 25th of Kislev (usually in December, but occasionally late November, due to the lunisolar calendar).
It was instituted in the year 165 B.C. by Judas Maccabeus, his brothers, and the elders of the congregation of Israel in commemoration of the reconsecration of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem, and especially of the altar of burnt offerings, after they had been desecrated during the persecution under Antiochus Epiphanes ..
The Book of Macccabees is not bible unless you're Catholic. Are you Catholic?
thus the Feast of the Maccabees was not commanded by God. It is man made unless you consider the Book of Maccabees to be God's inspired word. Do you?
Therefore I remain in my current stance that the Feast of Dedication is not biblical or God-commanded, but is man-made.