Today’s church’s misunderstandings

[MaggieB]

The church today says that the Sabbath was cancelled. As proof they tell of Mary’s discovery of the risen Christ on Sunday. It doesn’t make sense that the time of a discovery should change what God tells us He created on the seventh day, or that a time of discovering something establishes when it happened, but that is the way they think.

The Lord gave us a new covenant, one we are told makes the old covenant obsolete. The church tells us that God knew he make a mistake so he cancelled the old covenant. I guess they think that God is like them and they know they make mistakes so they say so does the Lord. As if the Lord was just another human.

The church goes on and on about the mistakes the Lord has made. They say the sacrificial system didn’t work at all for atonement of sin even though scripture tells us it did. When the blood of cattle was used to feed the Lord, like pagans fed idols and not as a symbol of Christ, God hated it so the church tells us it was a mistake of the Lord to establish it.

The church tells us OT scripture can be in error. OT scripture tells us that God guides us to praise and celebrate His plan of salvation for us with feasts for all generations. The church tells us that is an error, that the feasts are to be treated the same way cutting the foreskin is treated.

Scripture tells us to celebrate Christ with Passover, the church says God cancelled that. They made up a new way to do it and named it using pagan gods to inspire them to make up a name for this replacement.

Demons are attracted to the church, undermining it is undermining the Lord. They have done a mighty work, they will still fail in the end.

What “church” are you talking about?

 

[mustaphadrink]

I am aware that talking about shadows is forbidden according to a law of the fathers. But born again Christian are required to obey the loving commandment (not just a good suggestion ) to study rightly diving His word of truth, not that of the fathers we seek the approval of Him not seen . No man could serve two teaching Masters .The things of men the temporal seen and those of eternal God not seen.

The weekend fast is a ceremonial law as a shadow. God does not use parables to reason by when it comes to moral laws.

Hebrews 10 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. ...

Colossians 2:16-18 King James Version (KJV) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

.Why puff you fleshly mind rather than acknowlging the shadow. What's the hope in worshiping shadows?

I have no idea what you are getting at.

 

[mustaphadrink]

did you miss the part where pliny the younger said they met " very early in the morning ".

and, the weight of a actual historical document is far more than opinion based books.

oh, and remember, the Gospels tell us that the women went to the tomb early in the morning.

Did you miss the part where no mention of meeting on Sunday was spoken of. As I said they went early in the morning...there are seven early mornings in every week. From that comment you have no evidence that it was Sunday. The fact is you WANT it to be Sunday.

 

[gb9]

Did you miss the part where no mention of meeting on Sunday was spoken of. As I said they went early in the morning...there are seven early mornings in every week. From that comment you have no evidence that it was Sunday. The fact is you WANT it to be Sunday.

let's just use some common sense and Biblical knowledge - Jesus rose on sun. morning, the Sabbath ended sat. at sundown, the women went to the tomb the next morning.

so, as Acts 20 tell us, the disciples " gathered to break bread on the first day of the week" it is very obvious they met on sun. morning.

 

[garee]

I have no idea what you are getting at.

Did you miss the point that the weekend sabbath rest was shadow of the eternal rest it consisted of the last day and the first.?

Exodus.12:16 And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you.

Why do you think he used the fast as a shadow?

The preparation was a part of the rest.

One man tried to prepare the manna on the first day of the week. which shoul of been prepared on the last.

There is no law that says one can warm themselves by fire. The unbelieving Jews added many thing to the Sabbath. Making it into non activity and not a day to celebrate the true fast .The Gospel.

Numbers 15:31-33 King James Version (KJV) Because he hath despised the word of the Lord, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him. And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Of course, it is not a prerequisite. But it was suggested it was wrong by some here. And it was done based on feeling good about doing it. That was incorrect. It is Biblical. There are many things that are Biblical, yet, not a prerequisite.

I never said Sunday worship is wrong in fact we also gather on Sundays but try to keep the Sabbath. Big difference.

 

[CS1]

In order to fulfill that promise Jesus had to resurrect before sunset, the end of Saturday.

 

[CS1]

No Christian worships a dead Christ.

Jesus was in the tomb for three days and three nights. He did not resurrect on Sunday.
Leviticus 23:5-6 The LORD's Passover begins at twilight on the fourteenth day of the first month. 6 On the fifteenth day of that month the LORD's Festival of Unleavened Bread begins; for seven days you must eat bread made without yeast.

Passover is the preparation day for the High Sabbath. High Sabbath occurs on the first day of the seven day Feast of Unleavened Bread. Jesus died on the cross on Passover. His body was taken down before sunset. The hour that begins high sabbath and that first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

High Sabbath is not the same as the weekly Sabbath that occurs from sunset Friday unto sunset Saturday.



John 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the Preparation, that the bodies should not remain on the cross upon the sabbath (for the day of that sabbath was a high day), asked of Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
John 19:41 Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new tomb wherein was never man yet laid. 42 There then because of the Jews’ Preparation (for the tomb was nigh at hand) they laid Jesus.

Because preparations were to begin for High Sabbath and the Feast, no work was to be done per the law regarding Sabbath. That's why the women wrapped Jesus in linen and left his body laying in the tomb and without the usual burial ceremony that would have ensued had this not been so close to High Sabbath. Mark 15

Luke 23:50 And behold, a man named Joseph, who was a councillor, a good and righteous man 51 (he had not consented to their counsel and deed), a man of Arimathaea, a city of the Jews, who was looking for the kingdom of God: 52 this man went to Pilate, and asked for the body of Jesus. 53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in a linen cloth, and laid him in a tomb that was hewn in stone, where never man had yet lain. 54 And it was the day of the Preparation, and the sabbath [k]drew on. 55 And the women, who had come with him out of Galilee, followed after, and beheld the tomb, and how his body was laid. 56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments.
And on the sabbath they rested according to the commandment.
Footnote: K) Greek began to dawn.
Mark 16:1 And when the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him.

Nisan is the first month according to the Jewish calendar and coincides with March & April on their civil calendar.

Jesus crucifixion chronology started on a Tuesday night. Passover meal, Nissan 15, Mark14:1 Now after two days was the feast of the passover and the unleavened bread: and the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take him with subtlety, and kill him: 2 for they said, Not during the feast, lest haply there shall be a tumult of the people.

Mark 14:14.and wheresoever he shall enter in, say to the master of the house, The Teacher saith, Where is my guest-chamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples? 15 And he will himself show you a large upper room furnished and ready: and there make ready for us. 16 And the disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover. prayer in Gethsemane, and then his arrest.

A day according to the Hebrews calendar begins at sunset. "Night precedes light" as in the creation, hence, creation calendar, per Genesis 1.

Tuesday night, Passover meal, Jesus goes to the garden of Gethsemane to pray and is there arrested.
Wednesday morning, Jesus faces pilate and is then on the cross in the morning. Is dead by mid afternoon. Matthew 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the [q]land until the ninth hour. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, [r]Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is, My God, my God, [s]why hast thou forsaken me? 47 And some of them that stood there, when they heard it, said, This man calleth Elijah. 48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a sponge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink. 49 And the rest said, Let be; let us see whether Elijah cometh to save him.[t] 50 And Jesus cried again with a loud voice, and yielded up his spirit.
Wednesday night first night, Jesus was in the tomb wrapped in linen. The High Sabbath begins. (see prior verses posted)Night precedes light (Genesis 1)
Thursday is the first day of High Sabbath. At the end of High Sabbath Jesus is in the tomb that night, Thursday. And that is the second night in the tomb.
Friday day, Jesus second day in the tomb, the women bring the spices and oils to prepare Jesus' body.
Friday night is the third night of Jesus being in the tomb and the regular weekly sabbath begins.
Regular weekly Sabbath occurs from sunset Friday unto sunset Saturday. During the day Saturday, that is the third day of Jesus being in the tomb. At sunset Saturday the weekly Sabbath concludes, Jesus is not in the tomb.

Three days and three nights as Jesus prophesied of himself in Matthew 12:40for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the [r]whale; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

In order to fulfill that promise Jesus had to resurrect before sunset, the end of Saturday.

Did I say that? did you read what I said? No where in my post did I say we worship as Christians a dead Jesus.

I said " on Sunday because that is the day of the week Jesus Rose from the dead. "

Jesus rose on the First day of the week that would have Been Sunday because the Sabbath is not the first day of the week.

That is in the Bible you can find it

Matthew 28:1
Mark 16:1
Luke 24:1
John 20:1

all four Gospels say " First day of the week. all four do. The Greek word Sabbaton also means a day in the week as we know Jesus had to be placed in the tomb as the Passover was approaching. If you know anything about Jewish culture dead on any day is day that day .

 

[Blik]

What “church” are you talking about?

Certainly not the true church of the Lord, or even of the earthly organized church that truly believes in all scripture. But I speak of the churches like six of the churches told of in Revelation that were not pleasing to God.

 

[lenna]

Certainly not the true church of the Lord, or even of the earthly organized church that truly believes in all scripture. But I speak of the churches like six of the churches told of in Revelation that were not pleasing to God.

so in order to be part of the 'true' church, ie believe just like you, one should condemn all those who meet with other believers on Sunday

your religion seems very work based while you say it is not

and now you refer to Revelation. where in Revelation is salvation contingent on what day one attends church?

if not, then you are making things up. you are adding to scripture, which you might remember, the very book you mention in your post here, warns no one should do

 

[lenna]

Mark 16:

1When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so they could go and anoint the body of Jesus.

9Early on the first day of the week, after Jesus had risen,

the 7th day was a cessation from all labor...the Israelites labored for their salvation, albeit in faith, that those labors were pleasing to God as He had appointed them

Jesus, fulfilled all those labors as no more sacrifice, no more ceremonial cleansing, no more 613 laws to comply with and so on

these things were only a shadow of what was to come...the promise of a better way, an eternal way of salvation

For the law is only a shadow of the good things to come, not the realities themselves. It can never, by the same sacrifices offered year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. Hebrews 10:1

16Therefore let no one judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a feast, a New Moon, or a Sabbath. 17These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body that casts it belongs to Christ.
18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you with speculation about what he has seen. Such a person is puffed up without basis by his unspiritual mind.
19He has lost connection to the head, from whom the whole body, supported and knit together by its joints and ligaments, grows as God causes it to grow. Colossians 2

the reality is Jesus and our rest is IN Him. no more works as the work of Jesus, in complete obedience and sinlessness, is complete

 

[Blik]

so in order to be part of the 'true' church, ie believe just like you, one should condemn all those who meet with other believers on Sunday

your religion seems very work based while you say it is not

and now you refer to Revelation. where in Revelation is salvation contingent on what day one attends church?

if not, then you are making things up. you are adding to scripture, which you might remember, the very book you mention in your post here, warns no one should do

Why in the world would you make up such a story about me!! I have never condemned people who believe that God cancelled Sabbath and substituted Sunday. I have said over and over that God created a Sabbath to be the seventh day. That does not say "I condemn".

If you follow any person instead of following the Lord, it is wrong. Why would you or any Christian follow an very old rather dull woman? I may speak about scripture, but that is not asking anyone to follow me, it is asking them to think about scripture,.

This is supposed to be a Christian site!!!!

 

[Blik]

the 7th day was a cessation from all labor...the Israelites labored for their salvation, albeit in faith, that those labors were pleasing to God as He had appointed them

The Israelites did NOT labor for their salvation. Scripture tells us there is no salvation without Christ, and that is true from Genesis to Rev. God gave blood for the salvation of souls and that was a symbol of Christ's blood. Christ had not lived yet so the Israelites could understand Christ, but they were told that the sacrifice of animals were for the forgiveness of sins, and in Lev. it carefully explains all about the sin they were to ask forgiveness for. They were to repent of their sin, then, just as we are asked to repent of our sin when we give the sin to Christ for forgiveness.

 

[mustaphadrink]

Did you miss the point that the weekend sabbath rest was shadow of the eternal rest it consisted of the last day and the first.?

Exodus.12:16 And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you.

Why do you think he used the fast as a shadow?

The preparation was a part of the rest.

One man tried to prepare the manna on the first day of the week. which shoul of been prepared on the last.

There is no law that says one can warm themselves by fire. The unbelieving Jews added many thing to the Sabbath. Making it into non activity and not a day to celebrate the true fast .The Gospel.

Numbers 15:31-33 King James Version (KJV) Because he hath despised the word of the Lord, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him. And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.

That is all OT stuff relating to the Jews. I am approaching it in relation to the believers.

 

[mustaphadrink]

let's just use some common sense and Biblical knowledge - Jesus rose on sun. morning, the Sabbath ended sat. at sundown, the women went to the tomb the next morning.

so, as Acts 20 tell us, the disciples " gathered to break bread on the first day of the week" it is very obvious they met on sun. morning.

They would not meet on Sunday morning to break bread as to break bread in the original Greek means to have a meal. According to history records, that meal was taken in the evening so as to ensure everyone had a full meal that day which took place every evening.

 

[Blik]

That is all OT stuff relating to the Jews. I am approaching it in relation to the believers.

The OT "stuff" is the Lord speaking to mankind. If you are a Christian who loves the Lord, you do not push His word off with calling it "OT stiff", you listen to the Lord who you love.

 

[Nehemiah6]

meeting on a Sunday morning was not possible because they were at work. In the light of all this evidence I would say no, that was not the day they met.

You need to see what is actually stated in Scripture regarding the first day of the week -- commonly called Sunday, but designated as "the Lord's Day" in Scripture. John said that he was "in the Spirit" on the Lord's Day (Rev 1:10). Ever since Christ arose on the first day of the week, it has had a special significance for Christians, hence "the Lord's Day".

Christians met on the first day of the week to worship and "break bread" (partake of the Lord's Supper). They were also to bring their offerings on the first day of the week, and would hear the preaching of the Word. Justin Martyr lived in the 2nd century and provided us with an insight into the worship meetings of Christians. So we can take his testimony as evidence of what was being done at least within the first two centuries.

SCRIPTURE READING AND EXHORTATION
‘On the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things.

THE LORD'S SUPPER
Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons.

CHRISTIAN GIVING AND GOOD WORKS
And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succors [give assistance to] the orphans and widows, and those who, through sickness or any other cause are in want, and those who are in bonds, and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need.

THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE LORD'S DAY
But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead.’

 

[gb9]

They would not meet on Sunday morning to break bread as to break bread in the original Greek means to have a meal. According to history records, that meal was taken in the evening so as to ensure everyone had a full meal that day which took place every evening.

according to history, they met in the morning, sun. morning.

and, we are just talking about jews. gentiles never commanded to keep the Sabbath.

early Christians met on sun. early in the morning, just as pliny the younger wrote to the emperor.

 

[garee]

That is all OT stuff relating to the Jews. I am approaching it in relation to the believers.

The OT understanding of God is in respect to all he gave faith to believe him not seen. It has nothing to do with the flesh of mankind . It has to do with the power of God who works in the creature to both will and perform His good pleasure. God is not serve by human hands.

As soon as a person tries to divide the word of God from the word of God, OT from NT, or the flesh of mankind. Troubles can begin.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Blik, this is a perfect example of your misrepresentation of the words of others.

eternally-gratefull's exact words were "The sabbath according to law was never given to the church however."

NOTHING in that statement implies that "Scripture is not for the church". If I give you a copy of the Canadian Criminal Law Code, does that mean you are now required to abide by it? No! The same goes for the OT law with the Church. The Law is part of Scripture, but it is not given to the Church "as a legal code by which the church must abide".

thanks bro