Eschatology differences & how people get treated

[Truth7t7]

Is that a yes or no.?

Was he sent or did he come by the will of his own flesh ?

Hebrews 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Jesus Christ Is Almighty God!

John1:1-3KJV
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Google Dictionary:

a-pos-tle

noun

1. each of the twelve chief disciples of Jesus Christ.

 

[Truth7t7]

That's not offering more; rather, it's changing the subject.


Corrupted flesh didn't enter heaven; glorified flesh did.


What Catholicism teaches is doubly irrelevant.


The doors were locked. Jesus was not in the room, and then He was. How do you propose that He got in there?


Who took on flesh.


Nobody is claiming that. You are arguing against wind.


Why must you make up your own definitions? Ask any Christian, and they will tell you that "the trinity" is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Because you don't agree with that, you need to find a different word.

Yes Glorified Flesh/Bone, that maintained the scars of Calvary, that was tangible, ate earthly food, and wasn't bound by this physical Earth, vanish, appear?

Hard to understand from our human perspective, sorta like Star Trek Beam Me Up Scotty.

Yes the poster in question denies Jesus Christ was fully God manifest in the Flesh

Heretical Poison!

 

[Dino246]

What was this glorified body made of seeing flesh and blood the corrupted rudiments cannot enter heaven ?

Read 1 Corinthians 15; the explanation is given clearly there.

You seem to be leaning on that kind of spirit of understanding ?

Really? Quote me. Show with actual quotations of my posts the evidence that supports your assertion.

They were not looking for a resurrected man; they were looking for a dead man. Just like the women at the tomb that did not a first recognize.

Uh huh. Now explain why the disciples, who were in fear of the Jews, would lock themselves in a room with a stranger.

I think you meant whose work of faith working in the corrupted flesh seeing is was not of his own self as a apostle sent with words of the father .

I said precisely what I meant. Your incoherent blather is definitely not what I meant.

So then you agree the flesh profits for nothing zero? The unseen Spirit provides all the power needed?

I don't agree with your (mis)understanding of "the flesh profits nothing".

 

[pottersclay]

No I did not.

Not a salvation issue....I would offer more .How can we hear God and not men ?

I would ask? Did Jesus' corrupted flesh he inherited from his mother die ? Seeing corrupted flesh and blood cannot enter heaven .

If not where is this flesh and blood? Surely not as in Catholicism's transubstantiation doctrine .Its not more corrupted flesh and blood that is needed .What is needed is a new spirit that will not die.

Jesus can no more walk through a wall than You or I. It does not say he walked through a door or a wall. They did not recognize him until he spoke the words; "peace be with you" And then showed him the wounds. They in doubt still wondered .And he told them plainly a spirit does not have flesh and bones. God is Spirit.

The one time promised demonstration required a temporal body that aged showing corruption. . . ..... dying. A theophany as a vision (no flesh and blood ) like that of Melchedik would not supply the need for the one time demonstration .propmised in the Old testament. Flesh signified as sinful was required to do what the letter of the law ( thou shall die) could not do .Walk by faith the unseen law .

Note . . .(Life)
Note. . (Death) seen
Note . . . (Spirit) not seen


Romans 8:2-4 King James Version (KJV) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Adding flesh did not make God who he is. The trinity . (1) God is Spirit. (2) God is Light. (3)God is love.

They are not attributes but the very essence or cloud of his of his invisible presence that works in His children of light, Christians to both will and do His good pleasure.. It does not add to His glory .It takes away from it making it (faith) desolate .In that was no man can serve two teaching masters .The things of men seen and those working of God that worked in the Son of man, not seen . . the Father. In that way we are commanded to call no man on earth teacher Master or Father .The father is accredited as the teaching masters .Jesus replied when faithless men as disciples murmured .they walked away in unbelief.

Desiring to walk after what the eyes see the temporal the pagan foundation. Out of sight out of mind. No God working in their hearts.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

All one work of one faith or called a labor of Love. (God is Love)The father the Just. and Son the justifier. . .working in perfect harmony and mutual submissiveness

Psalm 143 King James Version (KJV) And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified.

Jesus was justified by the father who strengthened or empowered Jesus three times to finish the work of salvation. The demonstration is over we walk by faith, the unseen eternal.

Garee I'm typing this slow because I know you can't read fast...just kidding


Jesus flesh was perfect.....he was perfect....the flesh of man is corrupted and the law will do it's part. From the day we are born we are destined to die "but God" yeah he has made another body for us "uncorruptible.

 

[garee]

Garee I'm typing this slow because I know you can't read fast...just kidding



Jesus flesh was perfect.....he was perfect....the flesh of man is corrupted and the law will do it's part. From the day we are born we are destined to die "but God" yeah he has made another body for us "uncorruptible.

Pottersclay I am typing this fast because. I know you read fast. LOL

Jesus said His flesh profits for nothing. It was a one time demonstration in respect to a work as the lamb of God slain from before the foundation of the world . Our hope is in what the demonstration points back to . The lamb slain from before the foundation .It's why Jesus said his flesh does not profit. But what did profit was the father working in Jesus earthen body.

Jesus was an apostle sent with the will and power of another. He is not consider our Father but is our brother the first born of all.

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

You used the term, the Bible should be interpreted from a (Historical) perspective

This is the (Preterist) position in 70AD fulfillment of the events below.

1.) Do you believe the Abomination Of Desolation seen in Matthew 24:15 below has been fulfilled?

2.) Do you believe the (Great Tribulation) seen below Matthew 24:21 has been fulfilled?

Matthew 24:15-21KJB
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

To answer 1.) In KJB Daniel 9:27 "and from an overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate". In KJB Daniel 9:26, "desolations are determined".

Abominations, not just one abomination.
Desolations, not just one desolation.

The first of the abominations that made desolate Jerusalem was the first roman jewish war that saw the killing of perhaps a million jews and the destruction of their temple.

another Abomination that made desolate Jerusalem and its holy mount was Aelia which came from Emperor Hadrian's nomen gentile, Aelius, while Capitolina meant that the new city was dedicated to Jupiter Capitolinus, to whom a temple was built on the Temple Mount.

Another Abomination that made desolate jerusalem and its holy mount was Dome of the Rock, Arabic Qubbat al-Ṣakhrah, shrine in Jerusalem built by the Umayyad caliph ʿAbd al-Malik ibn Marwān in the late 7th century CE. It is the oldest extant Islamic monument. The rock over which the shrine was built is sacred to both Muslims and Jews. Although it is not a mosque, it is the first major Muslim monument for public worship.

Another abomination that made desolate jersusalem was the Siege of Jerusalum 1099. The siege is notable for the mass slaughter of Muslims and Jews perpetrated by the Christian crusaders,

Desolations have been decreed and have occured. Perhaps though more desolations are to come.

 

[garee]

Jesus Christ Is Almighty God!

John1:1-3KJV
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Google Dictionary:

a-pos-tle

noun

1. each of the twelve chief disciples of Jesus Christ.

Abel was the first sent one (apostle) He is also the first martyr.

There are 27 listed to include the apostle Jesus in the new testament . He sent them out two by two .Not everyone sent with His gospel is listed . He is still sending men out. Called missionaries

Twelve apostles like twelve tribes were set aside as Holy for a certain lesson used in Revelation.

 

[pottersclay]

Pottersclay I am typing this fast because. I know you read fast. LOL

Jesus said His flesh profits for nothing. It was a one time demonstration in respect to a work as the lamb of God slain from before the foundation of the world . Our hope is in what the demonstration points back to . The lamb slain from before the foundation .It's why Jesus said his flesh does not profit. But what did profit was the father working in Jesus earthen body.


Jesus was an apostle sent with the will and power of another. He is not consider our Father but is our brother the first born of all.

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.

But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.

I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

I could go on garee but your argument is with God not me. Let me say this ...it is most important to understand these verses for it is a salvation issue. Jesus was and is 100% God and 100% man perfect in everyway. And in every part.
If we the church are to represent Christ and are called the body of Christ do we represent corruption? Do we represent as you put it unprofitable things?
These things were seen with the naked eye the wounds of the hands the hole in his side they remain as such for a testamony. In the book of revelation a lamb is seen as if it were slain sitting on the throne.
The only connection with Mary is the bloodline in which Messiah would be born of. Scripture also shows joseph's blood line yet we know he had no part in the making of Jesus.
The word of God became flesh...it does not say occupied flesh nor does it say contained in a earthly vessel.
To say Jesus rose in spirit is a Gnostic lie and very serious. It calls the father a liar and the gospel a hoax.

 

[garee]

To answer 1.) In KJB Daniel 9:27 "and from an overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate". In KJB Daniel 9:26, "desolations are determined".

Abominations, not just one abomination.
Desolations, not just one desolation.

The first of the abominations that made desolate Jerusalem was the first roman jewish war that saw the killing of perhaps a million jews and the destruction of their temple.

another Abomination that made desolate Jerusalem and its holy mount was Aelia which came from Emperor Hadrian's nomen gentile, Aelius, while Capitolina meant that the new city was dedicated to Jupiter Capitolinus, to whom a temple was built on the Temple Mount.

Another Abomination that made desolate jerusalem and its holy mount was Dome of the Rock, Arabic Qubbat al-Ṣakhrah, shrine in Jerusalem built by the Umayyad caliph ʿAbd al-Malik ibn Marwān in the late 7th century CE. It is the oldest extant Islamic monument. The rock over which the shrine was built is sacred to both Muslims and Jews. Although it is not a mosque, it is the first major Muslim monument for public worship.

Another abomination that made desolate jersusalem was the Siege of Jerusalum 1099. The siege is notable for the mass slaughter of Muslims and Jews perpetrated by the Christian crusaders,

Desolations have been decreed and have occurred. Perhaps though more desolations are to come.

I would think the abomination of desolation should be defined .it seem there are many idea.


I would offer that the abomination of desolation was Kings in Israel . The restoring is when Jesus said; it is finished and the veil was rent. The time of reformation had come restoring the government of with no visible authority lording it over the flock. The Pagan foundation. Restoring the time period of Judges men and women prophets that declare the gospel the power of God unto salvation. Spoken of in Joel, men and woman prophets from all the nations of the world. A time like never before or ever again .A terrible tribulation for a Jew that was trusting in his own flesh . A great joy for the Gentiles and Jewish born again believers. they could share the gospel with no division.

That which stood in the way of faith worshipping God not seen was removed. They could no longer give honor to men as if they were in the place of God. Men could no longer Lord it over the beliefs of others. Any denomination today that requires a man to teach and seek after the approval of flesh and blood falls under the abomination of desolation. Catholicism has survived many years.

When you said made Jerusalem desolate, desolate of what? And which Jerusalem ? The heavenly as Zion or the corrupted earthly?

 

[Jimbone]

Mob Rule And Group Think?

Stand Out And Be Counted

Or maybe, just maybe, God it telling you something. You remind me of a scene in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, when the young Indiana runs out of the cave being chased by the guys he took the artifact from and is completely separated from the scout troop he came with. Anyway he comes running out of the cave looking frantically for them as he runs and says, "everybody's lost but me".

This seems to illustrate how you're thinking of things here. You are clinging to this one belief, that in the context of salvation is completely irrelevant, and are declaring that anyone that disagrees with you on this 1 irrelevant issue is in fact lost. So you come out of the cave alone telling yourself "everybody's lost but me".
Drop your defensiveness, take a step back and a deep breath, use your logic here and ask yourself how on earth does having the "correct" view on end times have ANYTHING AT ALL to do with the gospel message? Something by the way that our King, the Lord of Lords told us very specifically that NO MAN knows to begin with, be essential in saving us? THINK! How?

 

[garee]

according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.

But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.

I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

I could go on garee but your argument is with God not me. Let me say this ...it is most important to understand these verses for it is a salvation issue. Jesus was and is 100% God and 100% man perfect in everyway. And in every part.
If we the church are to represent Christ and are called the body of Christ do we represent corruption? Do we represent as you put it unprofitable things?
These things were seen with the naked eye the wounds of the hands the hole in his side they remain as such for a testamony. In the book of revelation a lamb is seen as if it were slain sitting on the throne.
The only connection with Mary is the bloodline in which Messiah would be born of. Scripture also shows joseph's blood line yet we know he had no part in the making of Jesus.
The word of God became flesh...it does not say occupied flesh nor does it say contained in a earthly vessel.
To say Jesus rose in spirit is a Gnostic lie and very serious. It calls the father a liar and the gospel a hoax.

I am not taking way the perfect work of two working as one God The one in a greater position the father. who sent his apostle, empowering Jesus the Son of man, the lesser position do do the will of another. The Holy Spirit worked in Jesus to both will and do the good pleasure of God .The two working as one God .. .one faith as a will. One power from the father called the holiness of the Spirit. The Spirit he poured on the corrupted flesh of the Son of man Jesus. Strengthening him to finish the work of two. .. .

.When the one time promised outward "demonstration" of the work which was performed from before the foundation of the world the lamb slain was finished when Christ declared through his apostle "it is finished" .

Before he disappeared he gave clear instruction from the father we know him that way no more forever more.

God is not a man and neither is there any fleshly man as a infallible interpreter that stands between God and man as a umpire. .

2 Corinthians 5:16Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

God does not have flesh and blood . Jesus testifies... Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have. can't see God. It why we worship him by faith the unseen eternal .

 

[Dino246]

I would think the abomination of desolation should be defined .it seem there are many idea.

I would offer that the abomination of desolation was Kings in Israel .

Because this period began before Daniel prophesied, it doesn't make sense that it is the AoD of which Daniel prophesied.

Restoring the time period of Judges men and women prophets that declare the gospel the power of God unto salvation.

During the time period of the Judges, men and women did not know the gospel because Jesus had not come in the flesh. Men and women did whatever they thought was right, and Israel went through cycles of freedom, idolatry, and servitude. Why would God want to restore Israel to such a mess?

The restoring is when Jesus said; it is finished and the veil was rent. The time of reformation had come restoring the government of with no visible authority lording it over the flock. ... Spoken of in Joel, men and woman prophets from all the nations of the world. A time like never before or ever again .A terrible tribulation for a Jew that was trusting in his own flesh .

Your idea of "a terrible tribulation" is, to put it bluntly, rather lame.

That which stood in the way of faith worshipping God not seen was removed. They could no longer give honor to men as if they were in the place of God. Men could no longer Lord it over the beliefs of others. Any denomination today that requires a man to teach and seek after the approval of flesh and blood falls under the abomination of desolation.

Nothing in Scripture supports your assertion.

 

[Dino246]

I am not taking way the perfect work of two working as one God The one in a greater position the father. who sent his apostle, empowering Jesus the Son of man, the lesser position do do the will of another. The Holy Spirit worked in Jesus to both will and do the good pleasure of God .The two working as one God .. .one faith as a will. One power from the father called the holiness of the Spirit. The Spirit he poured on the corrupted flesh of the Son of man Jesus. Strengthening him to finish the work of two. .. .

.When the one time promised outward "demonstration" of the work which was performed from before the foundation of the world the lamb slain was finished when Christ declared through his apostle "it is finished" .

Before he disappeared he gave clear instruction from the father we know him that way no more forever more.

God is not a man and neither is there any fleshly man as a infallible interpreter that stands between God and man as a umpire. .

2 Corinthians 5:16Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

God does not have flesh and blood . Jesus testifies... Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have. can't see God. It why we worship him by faith the unseen eternal .

What everyone is trying to tell you, and what you continually reject, is that God came in the flesh. Your explanations don't make sense in light of Scripture.

Nobody is claiming that God is a mere man; we've been over that a dozen times. However, Jesus is fully man AND He is fully God. If Jesus were a mere man, his death would have been meaningless, because he would not have been the perfect sinless sacrifice.

 

[pottersclay]

What everyone is trying to tell you, and what you continually reject, is that God came in the flesh. Your explanations don't make sense in light of Scripture.

Nobody is claiming that God is a mere man; we've been over that a dozen times. However, Jesus is fully man AND He is fully God. If Jesus were a mere man, his death would have been meaningless, because he would not have been the perfect sinless sacrifice.

And may I also add Jesus was not an apostle....he was and is the son of the most high God.

 

[Dino246]

And may I also add Jesus was not an apostle....he was and is the son of the most high God.

Hebrews 3:1 calls Jesus "the apostle and high priest of our faith". I get your point though; Jesus was not merely an apostle.

 

[Truth7t7]

Or maybe, just maybe, God it telling you something. You remind me of a scene in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, when the young Indiana runs out of the cave being chased by the guys he took the artifact from and is completely separated from the scout troop he came with. Anyway he comes running out of the cave looking frantically for them as he runs and says, "everybody's lost but me".

This seems to illustrate how you're thinking of things here. You are clinging to this one belief, that in the context of salvation is completely irrelevant, and are declaring that anyone that disagrees with you on this 1 irrelevant issue is in fact lost. So you come out of the cave alone telling yourself "everybody's lost but me".
Drop your defensiveness, take a step back and a deep breath, use your logic here and ask yourself how on earth does having the "correct" view on end times have ANYTHING AT ALL to do with the gospel message? Something by the way that our King, the Lord of Lords told us very specifically that NO MAN knows to begin with, be essential in saving us? THINK! How?

Jim you remind me of the (Full Preterist) that is hiding their belief when asked directly?

Jim do you believe in a (Future) literal (Second Coming) of Jesus Christ in the heavens?

 

[Bbrdrd]

Or maybe, just maybe, God it telling you something. You remind me of a scene in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, when the young Indiana runs out of the cave being chased by the guys he took the artifact from and is completely separated from the scout troop he came with. Anyway he comes running out of the cave looking frantically for them as he runs and says, "everybody's lost but me".

This seems to illustrate how you're thinking of things here. You are clinging to this one belief, that in the context of salvation is completely irrelevant, and are declaring that anyone that disagrees with you on this 1 irrelevant issue is in fact lost. So you come out of the cave alone telling yourself "everybody's lost but me".
Drop your defensiveness, take a step back and a deep breath, use your logic here and ask yourself how on earth does having the "correct" view on end times have ANYTHING AT ALL to do with the gospel message? Something by the way that our King, the Lord of Lords told us very specifically that NO MAN knows to begin with, be essential in saving us? THINK! How?

There is a sliver of eschatological belief that undermines the gospel message. While believing in elements of preterism, or dispensationalism, or whatever other ism one adheres to certainly is speculative and debateable claiming that the 2nd coming has already occured (which is what I take him to mean when he repeatedly says full preterism) undermines the hope of a future salvation. It renders salvation moot and thereby robs the gospel of its hope, which is why Paul wrote against it specifically.

 

[Dino246]

There is a sliver of eschatological belief that undermines the gospel message. While believing in elements of preterism, or dispensationalism, or whatever other ism one adheres to certainly is speculative and debateable claiming that the 2nd coming has already occured (which is what I take him to mean when he repeatedly says full preterism) undermines the hope of a future salvation. It renders salvation moot and thereby robs the gospel of its hope, which is why Paul wrote against it specifically.

Firstly, Paul wrote against the idea that the end had come in roughly 50 AD, twenty years before Levitical Judaism was destroyed. Secondly, if one only believes in elements of a system, can they be rightly accused of adhering to that system? No.

 

[Bbrdrd]

Firstly, Paul wrote against the idea that the end had come in roughly 50 AD, twenty years before Levitical Judaism was destroyed. Secondly, if one only believes in elements of a system, can they be rightly accused of adhering to that system? No.

When Paul wrote isn't all that relevant to the question as the teaching undermined the faith because it robbed it of a future hope. Teaching that Jesus already has come and gone with the world still full of evil is a denial of the gospel as a hope for the whole world.

The second point is true, as accepting portions of a system does not make one an adherent. Though my point with that was more to express that the tolerance for different interpretations is wide but not unlimited.

There are some eschatological positions that rise to 1st order theological issues rather than being 2nd and 3rd order. These are where one crosses the line from heterdoxy into heresy through denial of essentials.

 

[Dino246]

When Paul wrote isn't all that relevant to the question as the teaching undermined the faith because it robbed it of a future hope. Teaching that Jesus already has come and gone with the world still full of evil is a denial of the gospel as a hope for the whole world.

The second point is true, as accepting portions of a system does not make one an adherent. Though my point with that was more to express that the tolerance for different interpretations is wide but not unlimited.

There are some eschatological positions that rise to 1st order theological issues rather than being 2nd and 3rd order. These are where one crosses the line from heterdoxy into heresy through denial of essentials.

What "essentials" are being denied? The divinity of Christ? The virgin birth? Jesus' atoning death? The resurrection?

This is the essence of the issue that the OP was addressing; Christians are dismissing other Christians as heretics over differences in interpretation of end-time events. I haven't seen any post that denies the resurrection from the dead, nor of the eternal kingship of Christ. I see no reason to condemn someone if they differ, but I will vigorously resist someone who attempts to condemn me.