The Natural Man

[DiscipleA]

The natural man is an unbeliever that doesn't want to believe, doesn't want to learn, doesn't want to grow, doesn't want to mortify the deeds of the body so that the spirit can grow. does not welcome the spirit, does not accept it, does not receive it.

the point of decision as to the fact he must be saved or remain forever lost.

A person might understand what the Gospel teaches but that doesn't mean they believe it to be true.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

You don't need a big explanation to understand the spiritual man is the mature believer.

The immature babe in Christ is also a spiritual man before he matures, otherwise, he would not be a babe "in Christ".

 

[DiscipleA]

The immature babe in Christ is also a spiritual man before he matures, otherwise, he would not be a babe "in Christ".

Yes. Our understanding is opening up here. It's like knowledge we already have, but we don't have the wisdom to think of it in a way that gives us understanding. Now we do.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Do you think Paul is speaking to these believers as unbelievers ? " alright mate ,fancy a pint later " . ? No he can only speak to them as of the ' milk ' rather than the meat .
as parrelled in Hebrews 5
11Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
12¶For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil

Paul, in the verses you have quoted, is not speaking to the natural man that has not been regenerated, but he is speaking to regenerated people, referring to them as "babes in Christ". This is another example of you saying that a babe in Christ is the same as the natural man before he has been regenerated.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Yes. Our understanding is opening up here. It's like knowledge we already have, but we don't have the wisdom to think of it in a way that gives us understanding. Now we do.

Could you elaborate on your comment a bit more in order for this 85 year old man can understand the point you are trying to make?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

The natural man is an unbeliever that doesn't want to believe, doesn't want to learn, doesn't want to grow, doesn't want to mortify the deeds of the body so that the spirit can grow. does not welcome the spirit, does not accept it, does not receive it.

A person might understand what the Gospel teaches but that doesn't mean they believe it to be true.

The gospel of Christ is his "spiritual" teachings about the things of the Spirit. The scriptures plainly teaches that the natural man cannot discern (understand) the things of the Spirit.

 

[Iconoclast]

The natural man CAN believe the Gospel and this proof text does not support total inability.

God says he Cannot...I think I will go with what God says.

 

[DiscipleA]

Could you elaborate on your comment a bit more in order for this 85 year old man can understand the point you are trying to make?

I was just saying we seem to be building an understanding of things, even if it's nothing spectacular. It's a good discussion. Keep up the good work all!

 

[Iconoclast]

Before a person becomes a Christian.
Scripture calls them the natural man.
They have no ability to worship or serve God.
After salvation a believer can be led by the Spirit or be a spiritual man.

People are either under the dominion of the flesh Kata sarka
or dominion of the Spirit...kata pneuma


NET Note on natural man (psuchikos… anthropos) - “an unspiritual person, one who merely functions bodily, without being touched by the Spirit of God.”
Natural (5591)(psuchikos from psuche = soul) is literally "soulish" with affinity to natural sinful propensities, the person in whom the sarx, the flesh, is more the ruling principle. Psuche is the nonphysical element which makes one alive, conscious of the environment, and is to be distinguished from pneuma or spirit, which is a distinctive of man as the element of communication with God.
Jude describe men who had crept into the assembly seeking to turn the grace of God into licentiousness (Jude 1:4-note) as "the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded (psuchikos), devoid of the Spirit." (Jude 1:19-note) And so the natural man does not have the Holy Spirit. Paul amplifies this in Romans writing "you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him." (Ro 8:9-note) And so the natural man does not belong to God, is not part of God's family, which explains why he cannot understand the "family language" so to speak. In 1Cor 2:12 Paul describes himself as a spiritual man who is the antithesis of the natural man, for the spiritual man has not received "the spirit of the world, but the Spirit Who is from God." In that same passage Paul presented another distinction between the spiritual and natural man, namely that the spiritual man (Paul speaking of himself) can "know the things freely given" by God, but the natural man cannot know (or understand) them (1Cor 2:14).

 

[DiscipleA]

The gospel of Christ is his "spiritual" teachings about the things of the Spirit. The scriptures plainly teaches that the natural man cannot discern (understand) the things of the Spirit.

And they don't. They might be familiar with some of the famous Bible stories but they don't really understand why they matter or how they affect our lives or anything like that.

 

[Iconoclast]

Wuest - The word “natural” is the translation of a Greek word which Paul uses to describe to the Corinthian Greeks the unregenerate man at his best, the man whom Greek philosophy commended, the man actuated by the higher thoughts and aims of the natural life. The word used here is not the Greek word which speaks of the sensual man. It is the word coined by Aristotle to distinguish the pleasures of the soul, such as ambition and the desire for knowledge, from those of the body. The natural man here spoken of is the educated man at the height of his intellectual powers, but devoid of the Spirit of God. The word translated “receiveth” does not imply an active appropriation, but a certain attitude of passive acceptance when favorable, and of rejection if unfavorable. This man, whose powers of apprehension are limited to the exercise of his reason, does not admit these spiritual things into his heart. The reason for this rejection is that they are foolishness to him. (Ibid)
Friberg summary of psuchikos = of life in the natural world and what pertains to it; (1) as governed by sensual appetites and lived apart from the Spirit of God natural, unspiritual, worldly (1Cor 2.14; Jude 1:19); (2) as being a characteristic of the earthly body physical, natural (1Cor 15.44); neuter as a substantive - what is physical (1Cor 15.46). Jude 1:19 calls the teachers of error worldly (lit. ‘psychic’) people, who do not have the Spirit. (Analytical Lexicon)

 

[Iconoclast]

Accept (1209)(dechomai = middle voice of a primary verb) means to accept with a deliberate and ready reception that which is offered, receiving it kindly. For example, dechomai conveys the idea of welcoming one as a teacher, a friend, or a guest into one's house. Dechomai pictures the accepting of something or someone with an open arm, mind, and heart, even going beyond normally expected gracious hospitality (e.g., Acts 21:17). The term was often used of welcoming honored guests and meeting their needs with special attention and kindness. The natural man does not "put out the welcome mat" (so to speak-as in Col 4:10, Heb 11:31) for the Word of God (similar to those described in 2Th 2:10-12)! It is notable that dechomai is often associated with positive receptivity to the Word of God - see Acts 7:38, 8:14, 17:11, Eph 6:17, 1Th 1:6, 1Th 2:13, James 1:21.
We see the opposite response by the "supernatural" men (believers) in Thessalonica for "when (they) received (paralambano) the word of God which (they) heard from (Paul, Silas and Timothy - 1Th 1:1), (they accepted (dechomai) it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work (Notice the "intrinsic power of the Word!) in you who believe." (1Th 2:13-note).
The things of the Spirit of God - What are these "things?" Paul explains that they are things which are foolishness to the natural man. Earlier Paul had said "the word of the Cross is foolishness" (1Cor 1:18), going on to describe that these "things" as "the foolishness of the message preached… Christ crucified… to the Gentiles foolishness." (1Cor 1:21, 24)

 

[Iconoclast]

A T Robertson on he cannot understand them - He is not able to get a (an experiential) knowledge (ingressive second aorist active infinitive of ginosko). His helpless condition calls for pity in place of impatience on our part, though such a one usually poses as a paragon of wisdom and commiserates the deluded followers of Christ.
Can (not = absolute negation!) (1410)(dunamai) conveys the basic meaning of that which has the inherent ability to do something or accomplish some end. Thus dunamai means to be able to, to be capable of, to be strong enough to do or to have power to do something. It is usually translated able (50x), can (61x and cannot 58x) or could. BDAG says that dunamai means "to possess capability (whether because of personal or external factors) for experiencing or doing something."
Cannot understand - More literally "cannot know (ginosko)" -- Paul's point is not the unregenerate or unsaved man cannot read the Word and in some sense cognitively apprehend it, but that he cannot know the Word in an experiential sense. I think for example of Psalm 19:8 where David writes "The precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart." Believers can experience joy in their heart, that a natural man simply does not know! As an aside, how thankful we should be that God's Spirit taking God's Word can produce joy in our innermost being! (cp 1Th 1:6, Gal 5:22-23, Ro 14:17, 15:13, Acts 13:52) We are the most blessed of all people!

 

[EleventhHour]

God says he Cannot...I think I will go with what God says.

You mean Augustine stated man cannot, in his effort in order to refute Pelagianism.

Too bad Augustine did not know the truth he could have easily refuted Pelagius and we would not have to clean up the mess he helped create called Calvinism.

So far no one has shown it to be found anywhere in scripture.

 

[Iconoclast]

You mean Augustine stated man cannot, in his effort in order to refute Pelagianism.

Too bad Augustine did not know the truth he could have easily refuted Pelagius and we would not have to clean up the mess he helped create called Calvinism.

So far no one has shown it to be found anywhere in scripture.

You believe Augustine wrote 1 cor 2:14???
Seriously, it is hard to take your posts as anything to consider.
Did you miss post 113?
A T Robertson on he cannot understand them - He is not able to get a (an experiential) knowledge (ingressive second aorist active infinitive of ginosko). His helpless condition calls for pity in place of impatience on our part, though such a one usually poses as a paragon of wisdom and commiserates the deluded followers of Christ.
Can (not = absolute negation!) (1410)(dunamai) conveys the basic meaning of that which has the inherent ability to do something or accomplish some end. Thus dunamai means to be able to, to be capable of, to be strong enough to do or to have power to do something. It is usually translated able (50x), can (61x and cannot 58x) or could. BDAG says that dunamai means "to possess capability (whether because of personal or external factors) for experiencing or doing something."
Cannot understand - More literally "cannot know (ginosko)" -- Paul's point is not the unregenerate or unsaved man cannot read the Word and in some sense cognitively apprehend it, but that he cannot know the Word in an experiential sense. I think for example of Psalm 19:8 where David writes "The precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart." Believers can experience joy in their heart, that a natural man simply does not know! As an aside, how thankful we should be that God's Spirit taking God's Word can produce joy in our innermost being! (cp 1Th 1:6, Gal 5:22-23, Ro 14:17, 15:13, Acts 13:52) We are the most blessed of all people!

 

[Iconoclast]

You mean Augustine stated man cannot, in his effort in order to refute Pelagianism.

Too bad Augustine did not know the truth he could have easily refuted Pelagius and we would not have to clean up the mess he helped create called Calvinism.

So far no one has shown it to be found anywhere in scripture.

Vance Havner - The wise Christian wastes no time trying to explain God’s program to unregenerate men; it would be casting pearls before swine. He might as well try to describe a sunset to a blind man or discuss nuclear physics with a monument in the city park. The natural man cannot receive such things. One might as well try to catch sunbeams with a fishhook as to lay hold of God’s revelation unassisted by the Holy Spirit. Unless one is born of the Spirit and taught by Him, all this is utterly foreign to him. Being a Ph. D. does not help, for in this realm it could mean ‘Phenomenal Dud!’

 

[notuptome]

God is the actor in salvation. Man is the reactor in salvation.

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

When confronted by the Holy Spirit on the matter of sin, righteousness and judgment men react. John 3:18 Jesus gives us this example for our edification.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[throughfaith]

God is the actor in salvation. Man is the reactor in salvation.

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

When confronted by the Holy Spirit on the matter of sin, righteousness and judgment men react. John 3:18 Jesus gives us this example for our edification.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Yes and the Holy Spirit simply reproves the world of not believing on Jesus. No verse s say Hes ' drawing irresistibly nor is the Father ( after the cross )

 

[EleventhHour]

And the ' natural man ' is the immature believer . Carnal and ' natural man are the same ( its a synonym) . They are immature believers .

So then, 1 Cor 2:14, is the juxtaposition of the two natures within the saved man.. which means Paul is not speaking about the process of salvation, just the larger context of spiritual knowledge which also blows this proof text out of the water for Calvinism.

People like MacArthur (Calvinist) teach the natural man is being conformed to the image of Christ (wrong!!) he denies the two natures.

So we can see why they do not get at all the point Paul is making.

 

[Iconoclast]

So then, 1 Cor 2:14, is the juxtaposition of the two natures within the saved man.. which means Paul is not speaking about the process of salvation, just the larger context of spiritual knowledge which also blows this proof text out of the water for Calvinism.

People like MacArthur (Calvinist) teach the natural man is being conformed to the image of Christ (wrong!!) he denies the two natures.

So we can see why they do not get at all the point Paul is making.

why say you are a bible believer, if you are just going to make things up despite what the bible says?