So you are saying that Paul was already saved but disobedient by persecuting Christians?
Utterly preposterous.
Chosen by God - A study in Election
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Utterly preposterous.
There is zero evidence that the Lord was drawing Paul before his conversion. Furthermore Scripture says that Paul was obedient to the vision.......it doesn't even say that he, in and of himself repented and believed.
Pharaoh was in effect serving the purposes of the Lord and he was not "elect" particularly. Indeed and the high priest was uttering prophecies and he did not even know it.
But yes I agree there is election to specific service, but IMO the term applies to believers or holy angels or Jesus.
That opinion is highly speculative. Furthermore the same could be said of all unbelievers.
Scripture says that Paul was a blasphemer, persecutor of Christians, an apostate Pharisee and an unbeliever before the Emmaus road incident. His peculiar conversion occurred by the overwhelming irresistible Will and grace of God, instantaneously with no precursory conditions, no softening of the heart, no acceptance of the gospel once heard. Nothing.
Flash bang Paul is saved. Any other opinion is sheer fantasy.
We are ALL an exception to the rule. We all deserve condemnation yet we are saved despite our death sentence.
There is no way you can build doctrine on the kicking at pricks statement. Which you are trying to do.
There is no way that you can provide a convincing argument that Paul of his own free will carefully examined the claims of Christ or heard the gospel and repented in and of himself with a broken heart and guilty conscience. No way no how.
He was a stone dead sinner blasphemer and murder, right up to the point in time where Christ appeared to him and summoned him into service at the Emmaus road incident.
Only the Father allows anyone the mercy and gracious benefit of seeing and knowing Christ. And in this case the Father allowed it. Clearly. Paul had nothing whatsoever to do with his conversion.
Matt 16:17
Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain....
I hope that helps puncture these quaint illusions of human sovereignty with respect to salvation.
Btw, God pricking hearts through the word is all throughout Scripture.
Calvin's UNSCRIPTURAL limited atonement failure:
Before the Father sent the Son to create our universe & man. The Godhead predestined a PLAN with a PATH to salvation/reconciliation. In the event man choose to sin/rebel.
1 John 2:2 Jesus is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also ""for the sins of the whole world"".
(NOTE: Christ is the propitiation/atonement ""for the sins of the whole world"")
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, ""which taketh away the sin of the world"".
(NOTE: Jesus the Lamb of God is sent to ""take away the sin of the world"")
John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give ""for the life of the world"".
(NOTE: Jesus the living bread is a meal offering sustenance ""for the life of the world"")
1 Timothy 2:6 Who ""gave himself a ransom for all"", to be testified in due time.
(NOTE: Jesus ""gave himself a ransom for all"")
Recap: Christ the propitiation = to make reconciliation/atoning sacrifice. 1 Jn 2:2 "for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" Jn 1:29 "TAKES AWAY the SIN of the WORLD" Jn 6:51 "for the life of the WORLD" 1 Tim 2:6 "gave himself a ransom for ALL"
The 4 verses above show Christ's death paid for EVERY SIN & His payment CAN include every person "ALL".
HOWEVER, it doesn't do ANYONE any good "until they appropriate/seize Christ's redemptive sin atoning sacrifice & resurrection via/thru/by faith/belief".
The following verses show: Although, Christ's FINISHED work of redemption is open to ALL! It is only applied to those that will CHOOSE to BELIEVE in Christ's sin atonement!
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(NOTE: Whoever BELIEVES in Christ shall have eternal life)
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son "hath" everlasting life & he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him
(NOTE: Whoever BELIEVES on Christ ""HAS PRESENT TENSE"" eternal life)
John 3:18 But he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(NOTE: UNbeliever's in the son ""ARE ALREADY & WILL"" be condemned)
Everyone gets a "CHOICE". "BELIEVE" on the "SON", & you ""HAVE"" Eternal Life! Or "Don't believe & face the wrath of God"
John 11:26 Jesus said; whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
(NOTE: Whoever BELIEVES in Christ shall never die)
Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
(NOTE: Whoever will call on Christ shall be saved)
Romans 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
(NOTE: Whoever BELIEVES on Christ)
The only limit on mankind's salvation is: Individual Choice!
(A) Receive God's grace & place your FAITH in the redemptive, sacrificial, sin atoning work of the Christ/Jesus. Found in His: death (sins required wage, PAID), burial (proof Christ died) & resurrection (Gods receipt, sins payment received & accepted).
(B) Reject God's grace remain in unbelief.
A favorite straw man argument:
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:
(NOTE: Christ is still alive & has yet to fulfil the laws required payment for sin)
Christ was in fact LIFTED-UP! on the cross & from the grave. NOTE: ""ALL"" in the next verse >>> WILL be drawn!
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, ""will draw all men unto me"".
(NOTE: Post death & resurrection. Salvation's invitation is extended to everyone. But, salvation comes only to those who CHOOSE to trust/believe)
A sinless Christ: 1 Pet 2:22, 2 Cor 5:21, Heb 4:15, 1 Jn 3:5 1 Pet 1:19. Didn't pay for his own sins, HE DIDN'T HAVE ANY.
Christ died & paid for the sins of every person. Whoever "chooses" to accept God's grace & place's their FAITH in Gods predestinated PLAN of salvation = Faith placed in: Christ's death, burial & resurrection!!!
The notion that a persons salvation is already fixed/decided is UNSCRIPTURAL!
Before the Father sent the Son to create our universe & man. The Godhead predestined a PLAN with a PATH to salvation/reconciliation. In the event man choose to sin/rebel.
1 John 2:2 Jesus is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also ""for the sins of the whole world"".
(NOTE: Christ is the propitiation/atonement ""for the sins of the whole world"")
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, ""which taketh away the sin of the world"".
(NOTE: Jesus the Lamb of God is sent to ""take away the sin of the world"")
John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give ""for the life of the world"".
(NOTE: Jesus the living bread is a meal offering sustenance ""for the life of the world"")
1 Timothy 2:6 Who ""gave himself a ransom for all"", to be testified in due time.
(NOTE: Jesus ""gave himself a ransom for all"")
Recap: Christ the propitiation = to make reconciliation/atoning sacrifice. 1 Jn 2:2 "for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" Jn 1:29 "TAKES AWAY the SIN of the WORLD" Jn 6:51 "for the life of the WORLD" 1 Tim 2:6 "gave himself a ransom for ALL"
The 4 verses above show Christ's death paid for EVERY SIN & His payment CAN include every person "ALL".
HOWEVER, it doesn't do ANYONE any good "until they appropriate/seize Christ's redemptive sin atoning sacrifice & resurrection via/thru/by faith/belief".
The following verses show: Although, Christ's FINISHED work of redemption is open to ALL! It is only applied to those that will CHOOSE to BELIEVE in Christ's sin atonement!
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(NOTE: Whoever BELIEVES in Christ shall have eternal life)
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son "hath" everlasting life & he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him
(NOTE: Whoever BELIEVES on Christ ""HAS PRESENT TENSE"" eternal life)
John 3:18 But he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(NOTE: UNbeliever's in the son ""ARE ALREADY & WILL"" be condemned)
Everyone gets a "CHOICE". "BELIEVE" on the "SON", & you ""HAVE"" Eternal Life! Or "Don't believe & face the wrath of God"
John 11:26 Jesus said; whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
(NOTE: Whoever BELIEVES in Christ shall never die)
Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
(NOTE: Whoever will call on Christ shall be saved)
Romans 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
(NOTE: Whoever BELIEVES on Christ)
The only limit on mankind's salvation is: Individual Choice!
(A) Receive God's grace & place your FAITH in the redemptive, sacrificial, sin atoning work of the Christ/Jesus. Found in His: death (sins required wage, PAID), burial (proof Christ died) & resurrection (Gods receipt, sins payment received & accepted).
(B) Reject God's grace remain in unbelief.
A favorite straw man argument:
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:
(NOTE: Christ is still alive & has yet to fulfil the laws required payment for sin)
Christ was in fact LIFTED-UP! on the cross & from the grave. NOTE: ""ALL"" in the next verse >>> WILL be drawn!
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, ""will draw all men unto me"".
(NOTE: Post death & resurrection. Salvation's invitation is extended to everyone. But, salvation comes only to those who CHOOSE to trust/believe)
A sinless Christ: 1 Pet 2:22, 2 Cor 5:21, Heb 4:15, 1 Jn 3:5 1 Pet 1:19. Didn't pay for his own sins, HE DIDN'T HAVE ANY.
Christ died & paid for the sins of every person. Whoever "chooses" to accept God's grace & place's their FAITH in Gods predestinated PLAN of salvation = Faith placed in: Christ's death, burial & resurrection!!!
The notion that a persons salvation is already fixed/decided is UNSCRIPTURAL!
There MAY have been a few Pharisees that were in fact serving the God of Israel properly.
Paul was not one of them.
If you believe that unsaved spiritually dead sinners FIRST OF ALL must give PERMISSION to the Holy Spirit before God will allow a conversion to take place, you are sorely mistaken.
This position is not Scriptural, as it means that no sinners would ever be saved.
It is God Himself who is first mover, prime mover, takes first initiative, does the choosing, facilitates the revealing of Christ, provides the belief, the faith, the endearing perseverance.
There is no mediation between unsaved flesh and Holy God. All is the work of God and God alone.
Scripture says otherwise.
Acts 26
2 I think myself happy, king Agrippa, because I shall answer for myself this day before thee touching all the things whereof I am accused of the Jews:
3 Especially because I know thee to be expert in all customs and questions which are among the Jews: wherefore I beseech thee to hear me patiently.
4 My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews;
5 Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
Galatians 1
13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
Paul was a faithful servant of the God of Israel following the law.
12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
Pricking hearts is one thing, sovereign CHOICE by Holy God is something altogether more significant.
The following statement is doctrinal. God inserted it here for the purpose of dispelling all notions to the contrary! Many are called but few are CHOSEN.
John 15:16
You DID NOT choose Me , but I CHOSE YOU and appointed you, that you should go and you should bear fruit, and your fruit should remain, so that whatever you might ask the Father in My name, He may give you.
Hello cv5,
I stated my position & believe the scripture I posted support it.
If anyone can provide ""1"" recorded God breathed scripture written by John Calvin. Or ""1"" recorded God breathed scripture written about John Calvin.
I would be persuaded to reevaluate my position. Until then I will remain a zero point tulip. Best wishes, FD
If you believe that the Pharisees of Jesus day were serving God in righteousness you are gravely mistaken. Jesus only warns against the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, exposes the Pharisees for what they truly are, denounces the Pharisees for their ridiculous errors, tells them (and His disciples) that they are blind.....AND THEN CONDEMNS THEM TO HELL! The Pharisees play their part in the illegal murder of Jesus,and are constantly plotting the death of Paul.
Your statement is one of the most ridiculous I've ever heard on this board.
Furthermore before his conversion Paul was ONE OF THESE. Paul himself was plotting the destruction of Christians, just as the unsaved Pharisees plotted his murder after his conversion.
Which by the way proves that he was unsaved before the Emmaus road incident.
Matt 23:33
You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape the sentence of hell?
You assume I am a Calvinist. As I have said many times I am not. The formulations of mere men do not interest me. I do not believe in TULIP as some sort of biblical doctrine.
Everyone gets a choice? Nothing could be further from the truth.
God Himself alone does ALL choosing without exception. And these choices occurred long before anyone was ever born.
Don't be deceived. All blind spiritually dead sinners are literally re-created, reborn, born from above EX-NIHILO with there being no influence and no prerogative on the part of the dead sinner....it is and always was a sovereign work of God alone, to serve his purposes and for His glory alone. And just as they have nothing to do with their first birth, they have absolutely nothing to do with their second birth.
Someone please point out the righteous "choice" and glory of man in Eph ch 1. That's right it isn't there. In fact they saved individual is not even mentioned as participating in any meaningful way.
We are merely the beneficiaries and recipients of God's choice Gods will and God's grace.
Eph 1:3-12
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
E
EleventhHour
Guest
Can you just be very clear, are you stating that a person can be saved even though they do not KNOW, or have never HEARD the Gospel?
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