Women cannot have authority in the congregation.

[Gerlinde24]

During my study of the Bible and various reference works, including Kittel's Dictionary of the New Testament, I came to the conclusion that the Bible was subject to several changes before it became the Bible we know today. Thus, from the abundance of manuscripts and copies of biblical authors at the Council of Nicaea (325 A.D.), the scriptures were selected to come to the Bible. Other writings that contradicted official opinion were not included, often even condemned as heretical.
And yet some copies are available, were found in Nag Hamadi or Qumran.
For example, there is a copy from the 2nd century of Paul's letter to the Romans, kept in a Vienna university library, which proves that Junia was a woman. And this proves that Paul counted them among the apostles.

 

[Mem]

Hi thanks for the reply . I would suggest first and foremost we must not go above the law of faith called "as it is written" . sola scriptura) the restoring power of reformations large ones and small..when two or three are gathered together under all things written in the law and prophets the one authority of God

I would also say no sign gifts in any shape or form . We walk by faith the unseen.

When Jesus was on trial at the beginning of the ministry he was sent by the father as our scape goat to see if he would trust his own corrupted flesh and blood or would he rely upon his father to strengthen him in his weakness.

In his weakness the temper, the father of lies came giving a various visions to Jesus that did enter his fleshly mind . Some call them out of the body rather than lying spirts working from within.


Three times with three used to denote the end of a matter .(strike three) .Again and again after each new vision .The Son of man Jesus the prophet, apostle, would declare the words the father put on his Son lips . . "it is written" again and again . Therefore the Lord not seen rebuked the spirit of error and it departed . The Son of man had no power to rebuke .

The same kind of mind set is revealed in Colossians 2 .The EVS version is a little more sarcastic but I think sometimes a little tearing of the flesh (sarcasm) can awaken an old warning. like a thorn in the flesh.

Its one of those cases WWJD "what would Jesus do" . Would he say as it is written or worship the fallen angel.

Colossians 2:18 EVS Some people enjoy acting as if they are humble and love to worship angels. They always talk about the visions they have seen. Don’t listen to them when they say you are wrong because you don’t do these things. It is so foolish for them to feel such pride, because it is all based on their own human ideas.

King James says it a little differently . Instead of vision he has seen. The King James declares them a false (not seen ) created by ones own fleshly mind. Not as it is written

Colossians 2:18 King James 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

That's what sheesh said.

 

[garee]

That's what sheesh said.

or what Heeshee said

 

[Dino246]

When Jesus was on trial at the beginning of the ministry he was sent by the father as our scape goat to see if he would trust his own corrupted flesh and blood or would he rely upon his father to strengthen him in his weakness. ... The Son of man Jesus the prophet, apostle, would declare the words the father put on his Son lips . . "it is written" again and again . Therefore the Lord not seen rebuked the spirit of error and it departed . The Son of man had no power to rebuke .

The story is in Matthew 4:1-11 and Luke 4:1-13. The Father is not mentioned at all in either version. The Holy Spirit led Jesus into the wilderness, not the Father. Your conclusion, "The Son of man had no power to rebuke" is absolutely baseless; Jesus spoke the word directly from Scripture and rebuked the devil with it.

 

[Gerlinde24]

I just wonder if there are biblical reports and narratives that are confirmed by other sources (extraordinary)? For many of the biblical stories are related in their narrative form to the narrative forms of the ancient Greeks and the Babylonians.
The story of creation, for example, bears strong resemblance to Enuma Elisch, the Babylonian creation mytos. The poem is almost completely preserved in copies from the 9th to the 2nd century BC and is written in The Akkadian language. The exact time of its creation is unclear, so it is older than the biblical representation of creation (about 500 BC).
And were the Jews not in Babylonian captivity?

 

[Adstar]

What do you mean by "having security in understanding scripture properly?" How would you arrive at your proper interpretation?

That's the point..

We don't arrive at a proper interpretation..

The Holy Spirit lifts us up and takes us to the proper interpretation..

It's not our achievement..

We seek.. But we only understand when the Holy Spirit decides to reveal the truth to us..

A person can seek all their lives, but if the Holy Spirit is not willing to guide them into understanding that person will seek all their lives and never understand the truth they way they need to understand the truth..

 

[wolfwint]

I just wonder if there are biblical reports and narratives that are confirmed by other sources (extraordinary)? For many of the biblical stories are related in their narrative form to the narrative forms of the ancient Greeks and the Babylonians.
The story of creation, for example, bears strong resemblance to Enuma Elisch, the Babylonian creation mytos. The poem is almost completely preserved in copies from the 9th to the 2nd century BC and is written in The Akkadian language. The exact time of its creation is unclear, so it is older than the biblical representation of creation (about 500 BC).
And were the Jews not in Babylonian captivity?

Well Gerlinde24, I am not a friend of the historical critical Methode to determine ore read the scripture. There is an Traditional View which says that genesis was written in the 10th century BC.
Its a question of believe and Trust. The creation and Moses was certanly before Babylon. I believe simply as it is written.
Till today nobody could proof the opposit.
Even the evolutiontheory is an thing you have to believe. I find there many more reasons to believe Gods word then the so called human "wisedom".
Hope my answer could Help you little bit.

 

[Gerlinde24]

Well Gerlinde24, I am not a friend of the historical critical Methode to determine ore read the scripture. There is an Traditional View which says that genesis was written in the 10th century BC.
Its a question of believe and Trust. The creation and Moses was certanly before Babylon. I believe simply as it is written.
Till today nobody could proof the opposit.
Even the evolutiontheory is an thing you have to believe. I find there many more reasons to believe Gods word then the so called human "wisedom".
Hope my answer could Help you little bit.

First of all, the minor theme of the theory of evolution: there is more and clearer evidence for this, even if many questions remain unresolved; than for the creation story of the Bible or the Enuma Elish of the Babylonians.
Then, one of the first things I learned at the NSA when I started there in 1974 was that you should never believe a source alone, but always need at least two independent sources to make something safe.
Thus there are extra-biblical sources that prove that Jesus lived. There is no other source for the many miracles he has allegedly done. So it is a matter of faith. But how can one believe a book that, due to a lack of translations (or incorrect translations), there is a wide scope for speculation and interpretation?
For example:
The Word "abomination" is often mentioned in the Bible. The Hebrew word for it is To'evah (hope I correctly reproduced it from Hebrew). What describes a moral sin, something that makes you unclean before God. A pregnant woman was considered unclean and was not allowed to go to the temple. Except, she previously took a ritual bath, the Mikwe, and was then clean again for the temple.
Much of what was an abomination to God was the death penalty. Disobedient children, Sabbath abusers, and people wearing mixed-fabric clothing could be killed.
So did homosexuals, or people who wore clothes and hair of the opposite sex.
All this was part of the law of Moses, which is fulfilled by the Atonement of Christ (according to the Letter to the Galatians).
I'm just wondering what I'm doing here, where faith counts more than facts?

 

[tourist]

or what Heeshee said

Hershey? Love milk chocolate especially the little Kisses.

 

[Gerlinde24]

Hershey? Love milk chocolate especially the little Kisses.

Swiss and German chocolate is much better than American stuff.

 

[tourist]

Swiss and German chocolate is much better than American stuff.

I will ask Santa for Swiss and German chocolate for Christmas. Swiss Miss cocoa is good too but it's probably made in the US.

 

[Scribe]

That's the point..

We don't arrive at a proper interpretation..

The Holy Spirit lifts us up and takes us to the proper interpretation..

It's not our achievement..

We seek.. But we only understand when the Holy Spirit decides to reveal the truth to us..

A person can seek all their lives, but if the Holy Spirit is not willing to guide them into understanding that person will seek all their lives and never understand the truth they way they need to understand the truth..

I agree in principle that the desire to seek God is a gift from God. We also have the parable of the sower given that reveals that the condition of the heart is critical to having understanding that produces fruit in our lives (Jesus asked them if they did not understand that parable how can they understand any of his parables) And so we see that a repentant heart (till up the fallow ground of your heart by repentance..hosea) is the good and honest heart that is required to have illumination and answers the question "why do some have understanding and others are blinded?" Because of choices they make along the way to reject the truth and the words of the prophets (any of God's messengers) sent to them to call them to repentance.

Repentance is necessary for spiritual illumination and yet it requires the Grace of God to grant the illumination necessary for repentance.

 

[Scribe]

That's the point..

We don't arrive at a proper interpretation..

The Holy Spirit lifts us up and takes us to the proper interpretation..

It's not our achievement..

We seek.. But we only understand when the Holy Spirit decides to reveal the truth to us..

A person can seek all their lives, but if the Holy Spirit is not willing to guide them into understanding that person will seek all their lives and never understand the truth they way they need to understand the truth..

And yet we are often faced with two sincere believers who both claim that the Spirit revealed them a truth concerning a passage or verse and the two views are contrary. They cannot both be true at the same time. How then do we determine the correct interpretation? If you say, just pray and God will show you, that is not going to solve the problem as both parties claim they have already done that. You can't very well just say, "I think this guy heard from God, but the other guy didn't because the first guy looks more spiritual than the other guy" How would you go about determining which interpretation if any was correct and which was wrong? If your only answer is "pray and God will show you" you end up with three people all claiming divine inspiration, maybe even a third interpretation. Who's interpretation is the correct one and by what authority to you claim it to be correct? The Spirit you have or the Spirit in the other two members. Who has the right Spirit. If the Spirit is revealing truth to all three why is there not one interpretation?

 

[lenna]

First of all, the minor theme of the theory of evolution: there is more and clearer evidence for this, even if many questions remain unresolved; than for the creation story of the Bible or the Enuma Elish of the Babylonians.
Then, one of the first things I learned at the NSA when I started there in 1974 was that you should never believe a source alone, but always need at least two independent sources to make something safe.
Thus there are extra-biblical sources that prove that Jesus lived. There is no other source for the many miracles he has allegedly done. So it is a matter of faith. But how can one believe a book that, due to a lack of translations (or incorrect translations), there is a wide scope for speculation and interpretation?
For example:
The Word "abomination" is often mentioned in the Bible. The Hebrew word for it is To'evah (hope I correctly reproduced it from Hebrew). What describes a moral sin, something that makes you unclean before God. A pregnant woman was considered unclean and was not allowed to go to the temple. Except, she previously took a ritual bath, the Mikwe, and was then clean again for the temple.
Much of what was an abomination to God was the death penalty. Disobedient children, Sabbath abusers, and people wearing mixed-fabric clothing could be killed.
So did homosexuals, or people who wore clothes and hair of the opposite sex.
All this was part of the law of Moses, which is fulfilled by the Atonement of Christ (according to the Letter to the Galatians).
I'm just wondering what I'm doing here, where faith counts more than facts?

Christianity is a matter of faith. I see you are unsure of your faith; God says that those who come to Him must come in faith.

that is a very simple answer that does not satisfy many I am afraid, but it is the truth. It is the truth for those who have accepted Christ as their propitiation for sin.

the law illustrated the hopeless condition of sinful people, Old Testament, the New Testament reveals that Jesus fulfilled all the requirements of the law, He never sinned, and His sacrifice was acceptable to God and God no longer condemns us if we have accepted Christ who died in our place

So it is as you say above, the law of Moses (actually God's laws given to Moses) was/is fulfilled by Christ

we count the Bible as fact by our faith, as childish as that may sound to some, but in fact the Bible says to come to God with faith as a child

 

[Nehemiah6]

During my study of the Bible and various reference works, including Kittel's Dictionary of the New Testament, I came to the conclusion that the Bible was subject to several changes before it became the Bible we know today.

Rudolph Kittel was a rationalistic and naturalistic scholar and he changed the Bible when it suited him. Biblia Hebraica is a corruption of the Old Testament.

You have two options when you face the Bible: (1) believe that it was both divinely inspired and divinely preserved, therefore it is inerrant and infallible or (2) believe the nonsense published by unbelieving scholars who have attacked the Bible at every opportunity.

 

[Lafftur]

Sounds good, but if the person is feeling all that Joy and Peace and Excitement and preaches Quit Ye Like Men means to quit acting like a mere man because you have the supernatural power of God in you. He may say the Spirit told him to use that text when he read it but it was not the Spirit.

It was a mistake he made understanding archaic language of the KJV. Quit Ye Like Men means Act like a man. That would be one example. I could give other real life mistakes in interpretation I have witnessed that are more serious and so can you. But even the ones that do not result in false teaching but simply using the wrong text to teach it is something that can easily be corrected.

Sometimes people can be so sure that the Spirit showed them what a scripture means and they do not do the basic study needed to make sure they are correct. If the preacher in my example would have looked up even one commentary, not to mention 5 or 10 he would have realized his mistake. The Spirit probably WAS telling him to preach on that text and that is why he was so ENERGIZED when he read it, but recognizing the Spirit's leading he failed to do the responsible hermeneutical work such as checking commentaries to see if his interpretation is confirmed by others and also to find other gems that he may have overlooked about that passage and the context of his text as all verses should be preached from context. If so he would have probably discovered a much BETTER, and MUCH MORE SPIRIT EMPOWERED message about what The Holy Spirit and the Paul intended when he said Quit Ye Like Men which is THE message that should have been preached. A very powerful and SPIRIT inspired message can and should be preached from that statement but ONLY in the context in which it was intended and NEVER as a mistake in definition. Quit Acting like a Mere Man was NOT what Paul was saying, and it was NOT what the Holy Spirit was saying and even if the idea is a good one it is NOT OK to say that this is what Paul meant if he did NOT.

@Scribe @lenna @SoulWeaver @Angela53510

God has promised, when a person seeks Him with all their heart they will find Him.

So, if you want to use hermeneutics to seek God with all your heart, go ahead.

God is free, willing and able to use any study tool to teach us - sometimes parables, life experience, object lesson, His Word, etc but, ALL UNDERSTANDING of Truth comes from the Holy Spirit to us - without the Holy Spirit we know NOTHING, even if we think we do.

Our understanding has to be made OPEN by the Holy Spirit.

I find the simplicity of just sitting with God's Word the Bible and reading it and asking God questions and having conversation with Him - God has given us His Holy Spirit to teach, guide, counsel, comfort, and empower us as witnesses of Jesus Christ. He is the Author - He knows what His Word means and can easily give a seeking heart understanding.

Deception is too easy in the physical realm. We need the Holy Spirit to understand and discern correctly.

Hermeneutics originated from Greek Mythology - a Greek god named Hermes that was suppose to interpret and give knowledge to mortals.....

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/hermeneutic
First used in the 1670s, the adjective hermeneutic has origins in the Greek word hermeneuein, meaning "to interpret," which is thought to have derived from the Greek god Hermes, who served as a messenger interpreting between the gods and mortals. Like Hermes, something hermeneutic involves interpretation.

......it appears to me hermeneutics is just another attempt of philosophical human reasoning but, all of you go ahead and enjoy your hermeneutics.......I'm staying with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Dino246]

Rudolph Kittel was a rationalistic and naturalistic scholar and he changed the Bible when it suited him. Biblia Hebraica is a corruption of the Old Testament.

You have two options when you face the Bible: (1) believe that it was both divinely inspired and divinely preserved, therefore it is inerrant and infallible or (2) believe the nonsense published by unbelieving scholars who have attacked the Bible at every opportunity.

Fallacy: false dichotomy.

Please spend some time learning about logical fallacies so that you stop employing them.

 

[Dino246]

Hermeneutics originated from Greek Mythology - a Greek god named Hermes that was suppose to interpret and give knowledge to mortals.....

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/hermeneutic
First used in the 1670s, the adjective hermeneutic has origins in the Greek word hermeneuein, meaning "to interpret," which is thought to have derived from the Greek god Hermes, who served as a messenger interpreting between the gods and mortals. Like Hermes, something hermeneutic involves interpretation.

......it appears to me hermeneutics is just another attempt of philosophical human reasoning but, all of you go ahead and enjoy your hermeneutics.......I'm staying with the Holy Spirit.

Respectfully, you're being ignorant.

The origin of the term "hermeneutics" may unfortunately be linked to the name of a false deity. However, that doesn't mean that the principles or practice is.

Does the Holy Spirit tell you that Psalms is poetry, or that Proverbs is not prophecy, and how to interpret each genre? Maybe, and maybe not. Does the Holy Spirit tell you what chiastic structure is? Maybe, and maybe not. Does the Holy Spirit tell you that the Greek word translated, "usurp authority" only appears once in Scripture, but has about 50 different meanings in contemporary Greek? Probably not.

The tools of hermeneutics are not at all intended to replace or undermine the work of the Holy Spirit. Rather, they enable you to understand better what the text actually says, and avoids the far-too-common situation aptly explained by Scribe in post #213, above.

 

[Lafftur]

Respectfully, you're being ignorant.

The origin of the term "hermeneutics" may unfortunately be linked to the name of a false deity. However, that doesn't mean that the principles or practice is.

Does the Holy Spirit tell you that Psalms is poetry, or that Proverbs is not prophecy, and how to interpret each genre? Maybe, and maybe not. Does the Holy Spirit tell you what chiastic structure is? Maybe, and maybe not. Does the Holy Spirit tell you that the Greek word translated, "usurp authority" only appears once in Scripture, but has about 50 different meanings in contemporary Greek? Probably not.

The tools of hermeneutics are not at all intended to replace or undermine the work of the Holy Spirit. Rather, they enable you to understand better what the text actually says, and avoids the far-too-common situation aptly explained by Scribe in post #213, above.

Go ahead @Dino246 - enjoy hermeneutics. I'm staying with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Scribe]

@Scribe @lenna @SoulWeaver @Angela53510

God has promised, when a person seeks Him with all their heart they will find Him.

So, if you want to use hermeneutics to seek God with all your heart, go ahead.

God is free, willing and able to use any study tool to teach us - sometimes parables, life experience, object lesson, His Word, etc but, ALL UNDERSTANDING of Truth comes from the Holy Spirit to us - without the Holy Spirit we know NOTHING, even if we think we do.

Our understanding has to be made OPEN by the Holy Spirit.

I find the simplicity of just sitting with God's Word the Bible and reading it and asking God questions and having conversation with Him - God has given us His Holy Spirit to teach, guide, counsel, comfort, and empower us as witnesses of Jesus Christ. He is the Author - He knows what His Word means and can easily give a seeking heart understanding.

Deception is too easy in the physical realm. We need the Holy Spirit to understand and discern correctly.

Hermeneutics originated from Greek Mythology - a Greek god named Hermes that was suppose to interpret and give knowledge to mortals.....

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/hermeneutic
First used in the 1670s, the adjective hermeneutic has origins in the Greek word hermeneuein, meaning "to interpret," which is thought to have derived from the Greek god Hermes, who served as a messenger interpreting between the gods and mortals. Like Hermes, something hermeneutic involves interpretation.

......it appears to me hermeneutics is just another attempt of philosophical human reasoning but, all of you go ahead and enjoy your hermeneutics.......I'm staying with the Holy Spirit.

OK. So putting aside hermeneutics for a moment let me ask you what your answer would be to this question:

Let's say we are often faced with two sincere believers who both claim that the Spirit revealed them a truth concerning a passage or verse and the two views are contrary. ( A very common scenario here in CC and in our personal lives in our churches) They cannot both be true at the same time.
How then do we determine the correct interpretation? If you say, just pray and God will show you, that is not going to solve the problem as both parties claim they have already done that. You can't very well just say, "I think this guy heard from God, but the other guy didn't because the first guy looks more spiritual than the other guy" How would you go about determining which interpretation if any was correct and which was wrong? If your only answer is "pray and God will show you" you end up with three people all claiming divine inspiration, maybe even a third interpretation. Who's interpretation is the correct one and by what authority to you claim it to be correct? The Spirit you have or the Spirit in the other two members? Who has the right Spirit. If the Spirit is revealing truth to all three why is there not one interpretation?

And is it this precise point where we would need to appeal to another authority in addition to each claiming the Spirit revealed it to them. And to what authority should we turn that is not a contradiction to "the Spirit revealing it" Why not appeal to the text itself and the common sense reading comprehension skills such as context, who was being spoken to, cultural context, syntactical-lexical context (original language meaning) where the same subject is spoken of else where in the scriptures. Surely you can see how if those rules are followed by one of the three in our scenario and the interpretation is found to be in compliance with those rules but the others do not fit into context, other scriptures, original language meaning, etc then that person should concede that they were wrong and the other person is correct and confess that the Spirit did not reveal to them what they thought at first. They made a mistake. Now this so simple and common sense that I am sure we all agree. And yet that was an explanation of hermeneutcs being used to determine proper interpretation. It is just as Spiritual or even MORE SO than saying God revealed it to me when I asked him in prayer.

And as an example of how one can make mistakes by presumption and drawing conclusions out of intuitive thinking and neglecting further study, you seem to have suggested that hermeneutics is some kind of pagan practice because the root greek word. Just because the word developed from Greek does not mean it has anything to do with Greek mythology. No one is appealing to Hermes when examining the context of a verse. Suggesting that they are would be a very ignorant statement and thus we have an example of the need for hermeneutics. Do you have any idea how many English words you use have Greek roots? And how many can be traced to a root that itself has an association with the Greek mythological and philosophical mindset. We are all Hellenized form Greek culture roots like it or not.