Women cannot have authority in the congregation.

[Mem]

It is the glory of God to conceal a matter and the glory of kings to search it out (Proverb 25:2).

 

[Scribe]

Go ahead @Dino246 - enjoy hermeneutics. I'm staying with the Holy Spirit.

I have read enough of your posts to know that you are not weird and so I am sure that you do not mean by this statement above that you ignore context when determining the meaning of a verse.

Therefore you actually do use hermeneutics and the Spirit at the same time. The Spirit would never tell you to ignore the context when applying the interpretation. And I know you agree with that.

Below is one example of a list of the kinds of rules we all use when determining the meaning and interpretation of bible passages. This list will differ slightly according to whoever makes the list but most people will come up with a similar list. It is just common sense.

Someone could use this list and examples in the bible and teach a class in Adult Sunday School on "How to understand the Bible by relying on the Holy Spirit and common sense rules of reading comprehension skills" Many would attend and learn much and grow in their knowledge of scriptures. They would constantly be enlightened by the Holy Spirit the author of scripture. The word hermeneutics is not necessary no one in the class would ever need to use that word at all.

THE PROCESS INVOLVED IN INTERPRETATION AND APPLICATION OF A SCRIPTURAL TEXT​

• Pray and ask the Holy Spirit to illuminate you and reveal the meaning that He intended when He inspired the writers of scripture.
• Come humbly before the Lord and repent of any unconfessed sin as the parable of the sower reveals that the condition of the heart is critical to having spiritual understanding.
• Historical-Cultural and Contextual Analysis
• Determine the general historical and cultural milieu of the writer and his audience.
• Determine the general historical circumstances.
• Be aware of cultural circumstances and norms that add meaning to given actions.
• Discern the spiritual condition of the audience.
• Determine the purpose(s) the author had in writing a book.
• Note explicit statements or repeated phrases.
• Observe paraenetic or hortatory sections.
• Observe issues that are omitted or emphasized.
• Understand how the passage fits into its immediate context.
• Identify the major blocks of material in the book and show how the fit into the coherent whole.
• Show how the passage under consideration fits into the flow of the author’s argument.
• Determine the perspective that the author intends to communicate: noumenological (the way things really are) or phenomenological (the way things appear)
• Distinguish between descriptive and prescriptive truth.
• Distinguish between incidental details and the teaching focus of a passage.
• Identify the person or category of persons for whom the particular passage is intended.
• Lexical-Syntactical Analysis
• Identify the general literary form
• Trace the development of the author’s theme and show how the passage under consideration fits into the context.
• Identify the natural divisions (paragraphs and sentences) of the text.
• Identify the connecting words within the paragraphs and sentences and how they aid in understanding the author’s progression of thought.
• Determine what the individual words mean.
• Identify the multiple meanings a word possessed in its time and culture.
• Determine the single meaning intended by the author in given context.
• Analyze the syntax to show how it contributes to the understanding of a passage.
• Put the results of your analysis into nontechnical, easily understood words that clearly convey the author’s intended meaning to the English reader.
• Theological Analysis
• Determine your own view of the nature of God’s relationship to humankind.
• Identify the implications of this view for the passage you are studying.
• Assess the extent of theological knowledge available to the people of that time (the “analogy of Scripture”).
• Determine the meaning the passage possessed for its original recipients in the light of their knowledge.
• Identify additional knowledge about this topic that is available to us now because of later revelation (the “analogy of faith”).
• Literary Analysis
• Look for explicit references that indicate the author’s intent regarding the method he was using.
• If the text does not explicitly identify the literary form of the passage, study the characteristics of the passage deductively to ascertain its form.
• Apply the principles of literary devices carefully but not rigidly.
• Simile
• Characteristic: an expressed comparison.
• Interpretation: usually a single point of similarity or contrast.
• Metaphor
• Characteristic: an unexpressed comparison.
• Interpretation: usually a single point of similarity.
• Proverb
• Characteristic: comparison expressed or unexpressed.
• Interpretation: usually a single point of similarity of contrast.
• Parables
• Characteristics: an extended simile -- comparisons are expressed and kept separate; the story and it s meaning are consciously separated.
• Interpretation: determine the focal meaning of the story and show how the details fit naturally into that focal teaching.
• Allegories
• Characteristic: an extended metaphor comparison are unexpressed and intermingled; story and tis meaning are carried along together.
• Interpretation: determine the multiple points of comparison intended by the author.
• Types
• Characteristics
• There must be notable resemblance or analogy between the type and its antitype.
• There must be evidence that the type was appointed by God to represent the thing typified.
• A type must prefigure something in the future.
• Classes of the type and antitype: persons, events, institutions, offices, and actions.
• Interpretation
• Determine the significance within the time and culture of both the type and its antitype.
• Search the test for the point(s) of correspondence between the type and its antitype as they relate to salvation history.
• Note the important points of differences between the type and its antitype.
• Prophecy
• Characteristics
• Be aware that the style is generally figurative and symbolic.
• Watch for supernatural elements such as information conveyed by the announcement of angels, by visions, or by other supernatural means.
• Note the emphasis on the unseen world that lies behind the action of the visible world.
• Follow the action to its usual conclusion by a sovereign intervention of God.
• Interpretation
• Determine the specific historical circumstances surrounding the composition of the writing. Study intervening history to see whether the prophecy has been fulfilled.
• Study parallel passages or other cycles within the same prophecy for further information.
• Analyze whether this passage is part of a progressive prediction, is capable of developmental fulfillment or includes prophetic telescoping.
• Comparison with Others
• Compare your analysis with that of other interpreters.
• Modify, correct, or expand your interpretation as appropriate.
• Application
• Principalizing: Based on a historical-cultural, contextual, lexical-syntactical, and theological analysis of the narrative portion, ascertain by deductive study (1) the principles(s) that passage was intended to teach, or (2) the principles (descriptive truths) illustrated within the passage that remain relevant for the contemporary believer.
• Transcultural transmissions of biblical commands.
• Discern as accurately as possible the principle behind the command.
• Discern whether the principle is transcultural or culture-bound by examining the reason given for the principle.
• If a principle is transcultural, determine whether the same behavioral application in our culture will express the principle as adequately and accurately as the biblical one.
• If the behavioral expression of a principle should be changed. Suggest a cultural equivalent that will express the God-given principle behind the original command.

​

​

 

[Lafftur]

OK. So putting aside hermeneutics for a moment let me ask you what your answer would be to this question:

Let's say we are often faced with two sincere believers who both claim that the Spirit revealed them a truth concerning a passage or verse and the two views are contrary. ( A very common scenario here in CC and in our personal lives in our churches) They cannot both be true at the same time.
How then do we determine the correct interpretation? If you say, just pray and God will show you, that is not going to solve the problem as both parties claim they have already done that. You can't very well just say, "I think this guy heard from God, but the other guy didn't because the first guy looks more spiritual than the other guy" How would you go about determining which interpretation if any was correct and which was wrong? If your only answer is "pray and God will show you" you end up with three people all claiming divine inspiration, maybe even a third interpretation. Who's interpretation is the correct one and by what authority to you claim it to be correct? The Spirit you have or the Spirit in the other two members? Who has the right Spirit. If the Spirit is revealing truth to all three why is there not one interpretation?

And is it this precise point where we would need to appeal to another authority in addition to each claiming the Spirit revealed it to them. And to what authority should we turn that is not a contradiction to "the Spirit revealing it" Why not appeal to the text itself and the common sense reading comprehension skills such as context, who was being spoken to, cultural context, syntactical-lexical context (original language meaning) where the same subject is spoken of else where in the scriptures. Surely you can see how if those rules are followed by one of the three in our scenario and the interpretation is found to be in compliance with those rules but the others do not fit into context, other scriptures, original language meaning, etc then that person should concede that they were wrong and the other person is correct and confess that the Spirit did not reveal to them what they thought at first. They made a mistake. Now this so simple and common sense that I am sure we all agree. And yet that was an explanation of hermeneutcs being used to determine proper interpretation. It is just as Spiritual or even MORE SO than saying God revealed it to me when I asked him in prayer.

And as an example of how one can make mistakes by presumption and drawing conclusions out of intuitive thinking and neglecting further study, you seem to have suggested that hermeneutics is some kind of pagan practice because the root greek word. Just because the word developed from Greek does not mean it has anything to do with Greek mythology. No one is appealing to Hermes when examining the context of a verse. Suggesting that they are would be a very ignorant statement and thus we have an example of the need for hermeneutics. Do you have any idea how many English words you use have Greek roots? And how many can be traced to a root that itself has an association with the Greek mythological and philosophical mindset. We are all Hellenized form Greek culture roots like it or not.

How do we know we are saved? Just because the scriptures say so or does the Holy Spirit bear witness to our spirit..... The Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit to Truth.

When others are NOT in agreement with us or each other, we can present scripture and if the Holy Spirit bears witness then, we know it's true. If not, then it's not true.

We don't have to solve the problem of convincing anyone of anything if and when they disagree. Simply state what the Holy Spirit has shown you and leave it at that.

Pride has to be right, Pride refuses to depend on the Holy Spirit and will argue relentlessly and attack brutally.
Humility will simply say it and leave it in God's hands.

This physical realm and human reasoning is easily deceived - that's why magicians can make a living and why philosophy NEVER finds Truth.

 

[Lafftur]

I have read enough of your posts to know that you are not weird and so I am sure that you do not mean by this statement above that you ignore context when determining the meaning of a verse.

Therefore you actually do use hermeneutics and the Spirit at the same time. The Spirit would never tell you to ignore the context when applying the interpretation. And I know you agree with that.

Below is one example of a list of the kinds of rules we all use when determining the meaning and interpretation of bible passages. This list will differ slightly according to whoever makes the list but most people will come up with a similar list. It is just common sense.

Someone could use this list and examples in the bible and teach a class in Adult Sunday School on "How to understand the Bible by relying on the Holy Spirit and common sense rules of reading comprehension skills" Many would attend and learn much and grow in their knowledge of scriptures. They would constantly be enlightened by the Holy Spirit the author of scripture. The word hermeneutics is not necessary no one in the class would ever need to use that word at all.

THE PROCESS INVOLVED IN INTERPRETATION AND APPLICATION OF A SCRIPTURAL TEXT​

• Pray and ask the Holy Spirit to illuminate you and reveal the meaning that He intended when He inspired the writers of scripture.
• Come humbly before the Lord and repent of any unconfessed sin as the parable of the sower reveals that the condition of the heart is critical to having spiritual understanding.
• Historical-Cultural and Contextual Analysis
• Determine the general historical and cultural milieu of the writer and his audience.
• Determine the general historical circumstances.
• Be aware of cultural circumstances and norms that add meaning to given actions.
• Discern the spiritual condition of the audience.
• Determine the purpose(s) the author had in writing a book.
• Note explicit statements or repeated phrases.
• Observe paraenetic or hortatory sections.
• Observe issues that are omitted or emphasized.
• Understand how the passage fits into its immediate context.
• Identify the major blocks of material in the book and show how the fit into the coherent whole.
• Show how the passage under consideration fits into the flow of the author’s argument.
• Determine the perspective that the author intends to communicate: noumenological (the way things really are) or phenomenological (the way things appear)
• Distinguish between descriptive and prescriptive truth.
• Distinguish between incidental details and the teaching focus of a passage.
• Identify the person or category of persons for whom the particular passage is intended.
• Lexical-Syntactical Analysis
• Identify the general literary form
• Trace the development of the author’s theme and show how the passage under consideration fits into the context.
• Identify the natural divisions (paragraphs and sentences) of the text.
• Identify the connecting words within the paragraphs and sentences and how they aid in understanding the author’s progression of thought.
• Determine what the individual words mean.
• Identify the multiple meanings a word possessed in its time and culture.
• Determine the single meaning intended by the author in given context.
• Analyze the syntax to show how it contributes to the understanding of a passage.
• Put the results of your analysis into nontechnical, easily understood words that clearly convey the author’s intended meaning to the English reader.
• Theological Analysis
• Determine your own view of the nature of God’s relationship to humankind.
• Identify the implications of this view for the passage you are studying.
• Assess the extent of theological knowledge available to the people of that time (the “analogy of Scripture”).
• Determine the meaning the passage possessed for its original recipients in the light of their knowledge.
• Identify additional knowledge about this topic that is available to us now because of later revelation (the “analogy of faith”).
• Literary Analysis
• Look for explicit references that indicate the author’s intent regarding the method he was using.
• If the text does not explicitly identify the literary form of the passage, study the characteristics of the passage deductively to ascertain its form.
• Apply the principles of literary devices carefully but not rigidly.
• Simile
• Characteristic: an expressed comparison.
• Interpretation: usually a single point of similarity or contrast.
• Metaphor
• Characteristic: an unexpressed comparison.
• Interpretation: usually a single point of similarity.
• Proverb
• Characteristic: comparison expressed or unexpressed.
• Interpretation: usually a single point of similarity of contrast.
• Parables
• Characteristics: an extended simile -- comparisons are expressed and kept separate; the story and it s meaning are consciously separated.
• Interpretation: determine the focal meaning of the story and show how the details fit naturally into that focal teaching.
• Allegories
• Characteristic: an extended metaphor comparison are unexpressed and intermingled; story and tis meaning are carried along together.
• Interpretation: determine the multiple points of comparison intended by the author.
• Types
• Characteristics
• There must be notable resemblance or analogy between the type and its antitype.
• There must be evidence that the type was appointed by God to represent the thing typified.
• A type must prefigure something in the future.
• Classes of the type and antitype: persons, events, institutions, offices, and actions.
• Interpretation
• Determine the significance within the time and culture of both the type and its antitype.
• Search the test for the point(s) of correspondence between the type and its antitype as they relate to salvation history.
• Note the important points of differences between the type and its antitype.
• Prophecy
• Characteristics
• Be aware that the style is generally figurative and symbolic.
• Watch for supernatural elements such as information conveyed by the announcement of angels, by visions, or by other supernatural means.
• Note the emphasis on the unseen world that lies behind the action of the visible world.
• Follow the action to its usual conclusion by a sovereign intervention of God.
• Interpretation
• Determine the specific historical circumstances surrounding the composition of the writing. Study intervening history to see whether the prophecy has been fulfilled.
• Study parallel passages or other cycles within the same prophecy for further information.
• Analyze whether this passage is part of a progressive prediction, is capable of developmental fulfillment or includes prophetic telescoping.
• Comparison with Others
• Compare your analysis with that of other interpreters.
• Modify, correct, or expand your interpretation as appropriate.
• Application
• Principalizing: Based on a historical-cultural, contextual, lexical-syntactical, and theological analysis of the narrative portion, ascertain by deductive study (1) the principles(s) that passage was intended to teach, or (2) the principles (descriptive truths) illustrated within the passage that remain relevant for the contemporary believer.
• Transcultural transmissions of biblical commands.
• Discern as accurately as possible the principle behind the command.
• Discern whether the principle is transcultural or culture-bound by examining the reason given for the principle.
• If a principle is transcultural, determine whether the same behavioral application in our culture will express the principle as adequately and accurately as the biblical one.
• If the behavioral expression of a principle should be changed. Suggest a cultural equivalent that will express the God-given principle behind the original command

​

Well, Scribe it's an excellent list to follow, if you're a "Scribe." lol! I'm playing with you - couldn't resist your CC Name! I enjoy laughing hence, my name is "Lafftur."

I'm sure all the analytical orientation people are probably called to do all that detailed study.

Me? I'm just someone that likes to sit at Jesus' Feet and listen to what the Spirit is saying.......

Sometimes I research the meaning of the names of people and places in the Bible and I do like to look at Bible maps.

In the natural there are different learning styles so, I'm sure the Holy Spirit has various ways of teaching us Truth.

We just need to stay humble, pride blinds us to Truth.

 

[lenna]

@Scribe @lenna @SoulWeaver @Angela53510

God has promised, when a person seeks Him with all their heart they will find Him.

So, if you want to use hermeneutics to seek God with all your heart, go ahead.

God is free, willing and able to use any study tool to teach us - sometimes parables, life experience, object lesson, His Word, etc but, ALL UNDERSTANDING of Truth comes from the Holy Spirit to us - without the Holy Spirit we know NOTHING, even if we think we do.

Our understanding has to be made OPEN by the Holy Spirit.

I find the simplicity of just sitting with God's Word the Bible and reading it and asking God questions and having conversation with Him - God has given us His Holy Spirit to teach, guide, counsel, comfort, and empower us as witnesses of Jesus Christ. He is the Author - He knows what His Word means and can easily give a seeking heart understanding.

Deception is too easy in the physical realm. We need the Holy Spirit to understand and discern correctly.

Hermeneutics originated from Greek Mythology - a Greek god named Hermes that was suppose to interpret and give knowledge to mortals.....

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/hermeneutic
First used in the 1670s, the adjective hermeneutic has origins in the Greek word hermeneuein, meaning "to interpret," which is thought to have derived from the Greek god Hermes, who served as a messenger interpreting between the gods and mortals. Like Hermes, something hermeneutic involves interpretation.

......it appears to me hermeneutics is just another attempt of philosophical human reasoning but, all of you go ahead and enjoy your hermeneutics.......I'm staying with the Holy Spirit.

it is interesting that you actually seem to put yourself in some kind of exclusive club while saying others are doing so

you are really being silly with your interpretation of the word hermeneutics

good thing somebody hermeneucteted the original languages into something you can understand and pray over, right?

everyone agrees we pray for understanding. what part of that do YOU not understand?

I see you went to a dictionary for your UNDERSTANDING on the word hermeneutics. you didn't just pray

Deception is too easy in the physical realm. We need the Holy Spirit to understand and discern correctly.

News flash: deception is actually more probable in the spiritual realm what with all the demonic beings the Bible warns us about

I find the worse deceptions are coming from those who call themselves spirit filled, praying in tongues etc and I mean that in the nicest, most sincere way possible and I can provide proof any time

I think I'll stop there before I have to apologize

 

[Scribe]

How do we know we are saved? Just because the scriptures say so or does the Holy Spirit bear witness to our spirit..... The Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit to Truth.

When others are NOT in agreement with us or each other, we can present scripture and if the Holy Spirit bears witness then, we know it's true. If not, then it's not true.

We don't have to solve the problem of convincing anyone of anything if and when they disagree. Simply state what the Holy Spirit has shown you and leave it at that.

Pride has to be right, Pride refuses to depend on the Holy Spirit and will argue relentlessly and attack brutally.
Humility will simply say it and leave it in God's hands.

This physical realm and human reasoning is easily deceived - that's why magicians can make a living and why philosophy NEVER finds Truth.

I want to make sure I understand your meaning of bearing witness in my spirit. I believe I am justified because the Bible says I am. Everything I know about Jesus Christ is because I believe that the bible is the Word of God and I agree with it regardless of how I feel. Let's examine your theory as you have presented it and see how it pans out in real life:
A brother comes up to you and says... "The bible says that as a man thinketh so is he.... I was reading this today and I believe that what the Spirit is saying is that if we think successful thoughts we will ultimately do those things that make us successful. If we think negative thoughts about ourselves we will do things that make us unsuccessful." Now you might say "My spirit bears witness that that is true" I think you are understanding that scripture correctly.

But let us look at the passage referenced and see if that is what the Spirit is saying.

1When thou sittest to eat with a ruler, consider diligently what is before thee:

2And put a knife to thy throat, if thou be a man given to appetite.

3Be not desirous of his dainties: for they are deceitful meat.

4Labour not to be rich: cease from thine own wisdom.

5Wilt thou set thine eyes upon that which is not? for riches certainly make themselves wings; they fly away as an eagle toward heaven.

6Eat thou not the bread of him that hath an evil eye, neither desire thou his dainty meats:

7For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart is not with thee.

8The morsel which thou hast eaten shalt thou vomit up, and lose thy sweet words.

We can now see from the rule of context that the ruler who is offering the dainties is speaking hospitality and pretending to be nice but has negative plans for his guest.. "As he thinks in his heart, so is he" the real and evil motives is who the ruler really is, not this hospital person he is pretending on the outside to others to be"

Now that is a powerful sermon that NEEDS to be preached and IS what the Spirit intended this verse to be used to preached. But because of ignoring context many are quoting and using this half verse to teach a message that might be helpful in the sense that it is indeed important to not be negative, but this is not the message that the Spirit intended for this verse.

It is not about winning an argument it is about receiving the HOLY SPIRIT INSPIRED UNDERSTANDING That GOD intended and that Solomon meant when he wrote it.

Your spirit will bear witness that the context says it is about the ruler thinking evil thoughts in his heart toward his guest and that is who the ruler really is. If not, you are going to have to explain why.

 

[tourist]

@Scribe @lenna @SoulWeaver @Angela53510

God has promised, when a person seeks Him with all their heart they will find Him.

So, if you want to use hermeneutics to seek God with all your heart, go ahead.

God is free, willing and able to use any study tool to teach us - sometimes parables, life experience, object lesson, His Word, etc but, ALL UNDERSTANDING of Truth comes from the Holy Spirit to us - without the Holy Spirit we know NOTHING, even if we think we do.

Our understanding has to be made OPEN by the Holy Spirit.

I find the simplicity of just sitting with God's Word the Bible and reading it and asking God questions and having conversation with Him - God has given us His Holy Spirit to teach, guide, counsel, comfort, and empower us as witnesses of Jesus Christ. He is the Author - He knows what His Word means and can easily give a seeking heart understanding.

Deception is too easy in the physical realm. We need the Holy Spirit to understand and discern correctly.

Hermeneutics originated from Greek Mythology - a Greek god named Hermes that was suppose to interpret and give knowledge to mortals.....

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/hermeneutic
First used in the 1670s, the adjective hermeneutic has origins in the Greek word hermeneuein, meaning "to interpret," which is thought to have derived from the Greek god Hermes, who served as a messenger interpreting between the gods and mortals. Like Hermes, something hermeneutic involves interpretation.

......it appears to me hermeneutics is just another attempt of philosophical human reasoning but, all of you go ahead and enjoy your hermeneutics.......I'm staying with the Holy Spirit.

Based on the outline by Scribe on hermeneutics it would take a lifetime to discern the meaning on even a simple verse such as Jesus Wept.

I'll stay with the Holy Spirit also to guide me to spiritual truths that I may apply in my life.

Quite a comprehensive outline that he provided though, and I am sure that it took years of study to understand it. My problem is that I don't have years to devote to study or even know if I could handle the subject matter on an intellectual basis.

I have conversations with God too. When thing that I have learned about God is that He definitely has a sense of humor.

I have learned a lot of useful things from you too but then again, you have the Holy Spirit to lead you. I still have a lot to learn in this physical realm.

 

[Scribe]

Well, Scribe it's an excellent list to follow, if you're a "Scribe." lol! I'm playing with you - couldn't resist your CC Name! I enjoy laughing hence, my name is "Lafftur."

Yes, we are all called to be scribes of the kingdom of heaven and by careful study bring out of the scriptures that revelation of Jesus Christ that people need to hear;
Matthew 13:52...Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old. Jesus after asking his disciples if they understood his parables on the kingdom of heaven and they answered him "Yeah Lord"
And thus my CC nickname.

 

[tourist]

I have conversations with God too. When thing that I have learned about God is that He definitely has a sense of humor.

I am sure that God gets a kick out of typo's too. I know that I do.

 

[Scribe]

Based on the outline by Scribe on hermeneutics it would take a lifetime to discern the meaning on even a simple verse such as Jesus Wept.

I'll stay with the Holy Spirit also to guide me to spiritual truths that I may apply in my life.

Quite a comprehensive outline that he provided though, and I am sure that it took years of study to understand it. My problem is that I don't have years to devote to study or even know if I could handle the subject matter on an intellectual basis.

I have conversations with God too. When thing that I have learned about God is that He definitely has a sense of humor.

I have learned a lot of useful things from you too but then again, you have the Holy Spirit to lead you. I still have a lot to learn in this physical realm.

The list is not to be contended for. It is a sample. The main headings are what is important that we always consider. 1) Textual Context (self explanatory) 2) Cultural Context (like being in the bosom of Jesus at the supper meant seated next to the host in the seating arrangment when they reclined at meals and you were the one next to his chest.) 3) Lexical-Syntactical context (original languages) 4) Theological Context, what else does the bible say about the same topic) 5) All important.. Application to my life.

 

[lenna]

I doubt Scribe thought y'all would hop to and start learning all he posted

I have conversations with God and He does not have a sense of humor about being misrepresented and leading people astray. I say that from experience with a desire that people not fall into the deception of 'I don't need anyone but the Holy Spirit' That is not what scripture teaches and we have error upon error being taught today by such people

This 'I don't need any teachers' needs to be addressed and refuted. I have the Holy Spirit to lead me. EVERY single actual reborn person who has accepted Christ has the Holy Spirit to lead them so let's not make it seem like some kind of executive club

the warnings in scripture about deception are not given to unbelievers. they are ALL...EVERY SINGLE ONE FROM JESUS TO PAUL, JOHN AND ANYONE ELSE WHO WRITES OF DECEPTION, given to BELIEVERS who each and every one has the Holy Spirit

why do some people seem to think they can ignore that?

fine if you want to sit at home in your favorite easy chair and have little conferences with God, but are you a Pastor? do you call yourself a teacher? or do you have any other leadership position?

do you know what submission means or are you a rogue follower of Christ who just needs the Holy Spirit?

I am sure my language is a little strong for some, but I see over and over on this very forum threads about the excesses of certain denominations who say they follow 'the Spirit' and believe the Bible is a guide but not the final say. I see people conflating the old and new testaments and coming up with what amounts to a new religion, not the gospel.

I see people who say they don't need anyone else to teach them (contrary to scripture by the way) but the 'Spirit' and the bizarre interpretations some have. This is not directed to anyone in particular but about the best advice I could give to anyone who is unsure of how to proceed when it comes to study and comprehension of the Bible

Not everyone is cut out to or has the desire to really study, but no one should be telling anyone that they do not need to do that and they only need to go by how they feel or some inner witness

 

[Lafftur]

it is interesting that you actually seem to put yourself in some kind of exclusive club while saying others are doing so

you are really being silly with your interpretation of the word hermeneutics

good thing somebody hermeneucteted the original languages into something you can understand and pray over, right?

everyone agrees we pray for understanding. what part of that do YOU not understand?

I see you went to a dictionary for your UNDERSTANDING on the word hermeneutics. you didn't just pray




News flash: deception is actually more probable in the spiritual realm what with all the demonic beings the Bible warns us about

I find the worse deceptions are coming from those who call themselves spirit filled, praying in tongues etc and I mean that in the nicest, most sincere way possible and I can provide proof any time

I think I'll stop there before I have to apologize

No, @lenna - deception is ONLY in the Physical Realm. In the Spiritual Realm you would see the demons - they'd be uncovered - NOTHING can hide in the Spiritual Realm.

However, we're seated in an even higher realm than the Spiritual Realm - we're seated with Christ Jesus in Heavenly Places - that's the Heavenly Realm.

How do you think sorcerers and fortunetellers possessed by spirits of divination could tell peoples' future? Because the demons could see the peoples' future in the spiritual realm. Everything is known in the Spiritual Realm.

However, in the Heavenly Realm there are secrets that we can know but the evil spirits and demons cannot see.
The Physical Realm is FULL of deception.

 

[lenna]

No, @lenna - deception is ONLY in the Physical Realm. In the Spiritual Realm you would see the demons - they'd be uncovered - NOTHING can hide in the Spiritual Realm.

However, we're seated in an even higher realm than the Spiritual Realm - we're seated with Christ Jesus in Heavenly Places - that's the Heavenly Realm.

How do you think sorcerers and fortunetellers possessed by spirits of divination could tell peoples' future? Because the demons could see the peoples' future in the spiritual realm. Everything is known in the Spiritual Realm.

However, in the Heavenly Realm there are secrets that we can know but the evil spirits and demons cannot see.
The Physical Realm is FULL of deception.

well there have been books written, including some classics, about deception in the spiritual realm but people who are obverse to knowing anything about that will never read them

you are seated on planet earth and have forgotten all the warnings about deception and you are wrong and dangerously so

seated with Christ in the heavenlies does not mean you are above anything on earth, you are just as susceptible to being deceived as anyone else. if you want to think otherwise, that's up to you, but don't try to TEACH that a person does not need to be taught or does not need to follow scripture but just get some kind of witness and goosebumps and it's all good


I know about the world systems so you are not advising me of anything the Bible has not done a better job of explaining

why do you ignore all the warnings and state the opposite of the Bible?

it would seem then you do not need most of the New Testament since most of it is TEACHING

 

[lenna]

How do you think sorcerers and fortunetellers possessed by spirits of divination could tell peoples' future? Because the demons could see the peoples' future in the spiritual realm. Everything is known in the Spiritual Realm.

the Bible does not suggest such a thing. in fact if the devil had known what would happen when Christ was crucified, he would have tried to prevent it and not push for it. do you understand anything about the power of suggestion?

the ONLY One who knows everything in the spiritual realm is GOD HIMSELF.

if you are stating the devil knows as much as God, then you are in error. even Jesus does not know the hour God will send Him to return (with apologies to preterists)

smh

you just basically set an example of why people should not believe what you teach

 

[Scribe]

No, @lenna
How do you think sorcerers and fortunetellers possessed by spirits of divination could tell peoples' future? Because the demons could see the peoples' future in the spiritual realm. Everything is known in the Spiritual Realm.

The scriptures lead me to believe that fortune tellers cannot see into the future and are really just tricking people. There are many scriptures that declare God as GOD because He is the only one that knows the future. It is a Divine Attribute. So to suggest that any fortune teller can see the future is going to contradict scriptures. Now studying scriptures will reveal this and you will need to change you mind about it. No bearing witness with your spirit will be allowed as a reason to negate what scripture says about Only God being able to know the future.

Is 46:9-10 Only I can tell you the future before it even happens...

 

[lenna]

The scriptures lead me to believe that fortune tellers cannot see into the future and are really just tricking people.

there is that rendition of the girl exclaiming who Paul was, servant of the most high, but that was not future knowledge. On the other hand, the Holy Spirit has and does still give knowledge of the future when and where appropriate

the demons can mimic but they are liars. every single one and it is obvious very good at deception and they will also cause people to experience lying feelings and other things, but most people do not want to hear about that. they will also give a false sense of peace contrary to what is actually going on

 

[Lafftur]

I want to make sure I understand your meaning of bearing witness in my spirit. I believe I am justified because the Bible says I am. Everything I know about Jesus Christ is because I believe that the bible is the Word of God and I agree with it regardless of how I feel.

Faith is NOT a feeling it is a "knowing." When the Holy Spirit bears witness to Truth, our spirit man receives tangible Faith and we KNOW the Truth - no matter what we see, hear, smell, taste or touch in this Physical Realm.

Below is the scriptures in Romans I was referring to when I asked: "How do we know we are saved? Just because the Bible says so or because the Spirit bears witness with our spirit that our salvation is TRUE."

Romans 8:15-17 King James Version (KJV)
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Let's examine your theory as you have presented it and see how it pans out in real life:

I'm thinking that you're confusing me with someone else.....I don't recall ever saying I had a "theory."

I have just simply stated that the Holy Spirit bears witness to the Truth and I totally rely on the Holy Spirit for me to know if something is True or not.

A brother comes up to you and says... "The bible says that as a man thinketh so is he.... I was reading this today and I believe that what the Spirit is saying is that if we think successful thoughts we will ultimately do those things that make us successful. If we think negative thoughts about ourselves we will do things that make us unsuccessful." Now you might say "My spirit bears witness that that is true" I think you are understanding that scripture correctly.

But let us look at the passage referenced and see if that is what the Spirit is saying.

1When thou sittest to eat with a ruler, consider diligently what is before thee:

2And put a knife to thy throat, if thou be a man given to appetite.

3Be not desirous of his dainties: for they are deceitful meat.

4Labour not to be rich: cease from thine own wisdom.

5Wilt thou set thine eyes upon that which is not? for riches certainly make themselves wings; they fly away as an eagle toward heaven.

6Eat thou not the bread of him that hath an evil eye, neither desire thou his dainty meats:

7For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart is not with thee.

8The morsel which thou hast eaten shalt thou vomit up, and lose thy sweet words.

We can now see from the rule of context that the ruler who is offering the dainties is speaking hospitality and pretending to be nice but has negative plans for his guest.. "As he thinks in his heart, so is he" the real and evil motives is who the ruler really is, not this hospital person he is pretending on the outside to others to be"

Now that is a powerful sermon that NEEDS to be preached and IS what the Spirit intended this verse to be used to preached. But because of ignoring context many are quoting and using this half verse to teach a message that might be helpful in the sense that it is indeed important to not be negative, but this is not the message that the Spirit intended for this verse.

It is not about winning an argument it is about receiving the HOLY SPIRIT INSPIRED UNDERSTANDING That GOD intended and that Solomon meant when he wrote it.

Your spirit will bear witness that the context says it is about the ruler thinking evil thoughts in his heart toward his guest and that is who the ruler really is. If not, you are going to have to explain why.

I'm pretty sure the Holy Spirit is well aware of "context" when He gives understanding - I can totally rely on Him - total trust.

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth and Jesus Christ is The Truth - the Word and the Spirit agree and will bear witness to my spirit as to what is TRUE. There's really no argument over "context."

 

[oldethennew]

let us see this 'example' = Balaam = , of course aside from the chosen Prophets- the wise-men;
and then we have Simon who was telling a whole township about their tomorrows?.....................................

our conclusion is that God/Yeshua uses His chosen servants, whether good or bad, to
fulfill His Will for mankind, before it even happens...

 

[Lafftur]

well there have been books written, including some classics, about deception in the spiritual realm but people who are obverse to knowing anything about that will never read them

you are seated on planet earth and have forgotten all the warnings about deception and you are wrong and dangerously so

seated with Christ in the heavenlies does not mean you are above anything on earth, you are just as susceptible to being deceived as anyone else. if you want to think otherwise, that's up to you, but don't try to TEACH that a person does not need to be taught or does not need to follow scripture but just get some kind of witness and goosebumps and it's all good


I know about the world systems so you are not advising me of anything the Bible has not done a better job of explaining

why do you ignore all the warnings and state the opposite of the Bible?

it would seem then you do not need most of the New Testament since most of it is TEACHING

the Bible does not suggest such a thing. in fact if the devil had known what would happen when Christ was crucified, he would have tried to prevent it and not push for it. do you understand anything about the power of suggestion?

the ONLY One who knows everything in the spiritual realm is GOD HIMSELF.

if you are stating the devil knows as much as God, then you are in error. even Jesus does not know the hour God will send Him to return (with apologies to preterists)

smh

you just basically set an example of why people should not believe what you teach

@lenna - I really don't think you're understanding any of my posts.

 

[Scribe]

let us see this 'example' = Balaam = , of course aside from the chosen Prophets- the wise-men;
and then we have Simon who was telling a whole township about their tomorrows?.....................................

our conclusion is that God/Yeshua uses His chosen servants, whether good or bad, to
fulfill His Will for mankind, before it even happens...

God reveals things to his prophets. That is God declaring the future and he is the only one that can. It is a divine attribute of God.
Soothsayers pretend. Simon bewitched them but he was a deceiver, a trickster, like those you can visit today who have all kinds of parlor tricks to wow you with.