Not By Works

[Duskey]

Dear @jackrosie and everyone,

God could have easily preprogrammed all of us but, He didn’t.....WHY?!!!

If God so greatly desires obedience, why not just program us to obey?!!!!

Why? Because God wants us to know Him and to love Him. LOVE cannot be preprogrammed or created.....Love has to have a choice.

God had to offer Adam and Eve a choice.

God offers us a choice - Life or Death. What is your choice?

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the Lord thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the Lord sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
Deuteronomy 30:19-20 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Deuteronomy 30:19-20&version=KJV

Please don’t bring her back into this thread. The calvinists are off in their own little world in another thread and this one now has peace.

 

[VCO]

Oookay.

I guess nearly every translation out there is a poor translation since they translate airei as "takes away; cuts off; cuts away; breaks off; removes; lops off".

I did find a "translation" that renders the word the way you say, "lifts up":

“I am a true sprouting vine, and the farmer who tends the vine is my Father. 2 He cares for the branches connected to me by lifting and propping up the fruitless branches and pruning every fruitful branch to yield a greater harvest. 3 The words I have spoken over you have already cleansed you."

It's called The Passion Translation.

Here's what Dr. Andrew Shead (Old Testament scholar and NIV Translation Committee member) said about this translation:

"...abandoning all interest in textual accuracy, playing fast and loose with the original languages, and inserting so much new material into the text that it is at least 50% longer than the original. The result is a strongly sectarian translation that no longer counts as Scripture; by masquerading as a Bible it threatens to bind entire churches in thrall to a false god."

><>

I am not sure who rendered that word AIRO "takes away; cuts off; cuts away; breaks off; removes; lops off",
would be an error in LITERAL TRANSLATION!

It will not let me edit these following PASTES to delete unnecessary blank lines.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Greek NASB Number: 142





Greek Word: αἴρω





Transliterated Word: airô
Root: a prim. vb.;

Definition: to raise, take up, lift:--





List of English Words and Number of Times Used
away (5),
bear (4),
carried (1),
carry (1),
get (4),
hoisted (1),
keep (1),
lifted (2),
pick (9),
picked (11),
pulls away (2),
put away (1),
raised (2),
remove (1),
removed (3),
suspense* (1),
take (13),
take away (5),
take...away (4),
taken (3),
taken...away (1),
taken away (12),
takes away (7),
taking (1),
took (2),
took...away (1),
took away (3),
weighed anchor (1).



An asterisk (*) indicates that at least one other original language word was also translated as this English word. Look up this word in the English NASB concordance for the additional original language word(s).





New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Greek Strong's Number: 142


Greek Word: αἴρω


Transliteration: airō


Phonetic Pronunciation: ah'ee-ro


Root: a primary root


Cross Reference: TDNT - 1:185,28


Part of Speech: v


Vine's Words: Bear, Doubt (be in; make to), Doubtful, Doubting, Hoist up, Lift, Put, Take








Usage Notes:





English Words used in KJV:


take up 32
take away 25
take 25
away with 5
lift up 4
bear 3
miscellaneous translations 8
[Total Count: 102]





a primary verb; to lift; by implication to take up or away; figurative to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind); specially to sail away (i.e. weigh anchor); by Hebrew [compare <H5375> (nasa')] to expiate sin :- away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

KJV = He taketh away
ASV = He taketh it away
NKJV = He takes away
NASB = He takes away
HCSB = He removes
NRSV = He removes
ESV = He takes away
NIV = He cuts off
NCV = He cuts off
NJB = He cuts away
GWT = He removes
YLT= He doth take it away


It that helpful ? I noticed true to their form the NIV, NCV, NJB added that word CUTS that IS NOT in the GREEK. The believe they must add words to the English BIBLE, to help keep it true to original meaning. IF THAT IS THE CASE the added word should have been in ITALICS, to indicate it was added to what was in the original language. I believe they WEAKENED the whole TRANSLATION, by not using Itatlics like that.

Now really do you believe GOD HAS TO GET A SAW AND CUT THE BRANCHES ? ? ? That CUT was man made symbolism not found in the original GREEK.

 

[EleventhHour]

Please don’t bring her back into this thread. The calvinists are off in their own little world in another thread and this one now has peace.

But, but.... there are so many kisses "xxx" being given over there?

 

[Duskey]

But, but.... there are so many kisses "xxx" being given over there?

 

[EleventhHour]

Please don’t bring her back into this thread. The calvinists are off in their own little world in another thread and this one now has peace.

We have a reprieve right now but surely as night follows day some one will show up peddling salvation by works... we can hope that person is open to correction ... either way the Gospel is proclaimed.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We still do this today. attach them to the trellis, it provides aeration and exposure to the sun.

And I can tell you with grape vines, if the branches do not bear fruit one year we let them grow, bring more nutrients up from the root so the next year it will bear fruit.

The vine dresser cares for all the branches those that bear fruit and those who have not yet done so.

Yeas
if we have our eyes open we can see it

 

[Micaiah-imla]

The words take away in John 15 are a poor translation, the word actually means to lift up, to take up from the ground, to raise up,

it was a well known thing that they did in Jesus day,if a branch did not bear fruit they lifted it up, so it could bear fruit.

So every literal translation that renders the words in John 15, regarding what happens to the unfruitful branches, as being cut off, taken away, and removed are poor translations?

How convenient.

Perhaps what is really going on here is that you and yours are seeking to harmonize scripture with a doctrine that is poor and lacking; that needs unique translation renderings to force the scriptures into a system conceived by man.

 

[EleventhHour]

Yeas
if we have our eyes open we can see it

Being of Italian decent helps too... gotta have a grape vine in the backyard.

 

[Micaiah-imla]

How much works is enough?

None for a new convert.

But once converted he should be doing this:

Matthew 5:16
[16] Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

 

[star]

Letting our light shine before men is how we show our love for God and it will show on our faces but that is not "works"

 

[Bbrdrd]

And the churches are filled with many nominal Christians who do plenty of "works" I am far more concerned for them.

Why? Both are possibly lost and in need of meeting the King. Unfortunately in the US culture there's a lot of messaging that tells us that anything goes, so it seems to me the principle message of the church should not be one that allows the church to be conformed to the culture through "love." Are you really willing to allow people to go to hell comfortably?

 

[star]

Some churches in America and all around the world are changing the message of God's Word to suit culture, period. Our bibles are not written to "suit" anything other than the Word of God and the need for mankind to be reconciled to the Creator. We humans messed it all up. Only God can fix it all up.

 

[EleventhHour]

Why? Both are possibly lost and in need of meeting the King. Unfortunately in the US culture there's a lot of messaging that tells us that anything goes, so it seems to me the principle message of the church should not be one that allows the church to be conformed to the culture through "love." Are you really willing to allow people to go to hell comfortably?

So no works, no salvation?

 

[Bbrdrd]

So no works, no salvation?

In a sense, I suppose. Without taking action on faith there is no faith. They may "believe" in the sense that they've agreed with a proposition, but pistis is better translated as fidelity than belief. And fidelity speaks to both action and beliefs as it has to do with being faithful. Flat belief is not the kind of faith spoken of by Paul which is exactly why James could say faith without works is dead without being in disagreement with Paul.

 

[Duskey]

None for a new convert.

But once converted he should be doing this:

Matthew 5:16
[16] Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

That light usually comes as naturally as breathing without having to think about it, yet that light may simply be letting people see how much you love the Lord with smiles of pure elation.

 

[BillG]

It's more the modern language I'm worried about because belief is a much weaker word than trust, especially when it comes to the level that the original languages conveyed.
Incidental may not be quite the right word, but what I meant to convey is that works will be produced on account of a genuine trust so if there are no works it's cause for concern.

If you don't mind me asking.

Is it possible that works will be produced but not on account of genuine trust?

Should we be concerned about that?

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it must me a duck?

But what about a duck who do does not quack like a duck all the time?

Is it still a duck?

The duck being the perceived who trust and the quacks being the works.

 

[Bbrdrd]

If you don't mind me asking.

Is it possible that works will be produced but not on account of genuine trust?

Should we be concerned about that?

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it must me a duck?

But what about a duck who do does not quack like a duck all the time?

Is it still a duck?

The duck being the perceived who trust and the quacks being the works.

It depends on what is meant by "works." Certainly things like feeding the poor, clothing the naked, and other works of piety can be done without a genuine trust as can any sort of religious work. The question here is about what we are preaching/teaching rather than trying to confront those who are not producing since there's a tendency to shy away from certain books of the Bible to avoid being "judgy" or "preaching a works based salvation." Ultimately, the kinds of works that trust produces may not look like actual work such as immediately turning to God in prayer when something happens in your life.

 

[BillG]

It depends on what is meant by "works." Certainly things like feeding the poor, clothing the naked, and other works of piety can be done without a genuine trust as can any sort of religious work. The question here is about what we are preaching/teaching rather than trying to confront those who are not producing since there's a tendency to shy away from certain books of the Bible to avoid being "judgy" or "preaching a works based salvation." Ultimately, the kinds of works that trust produces may not look like actual work such as immediately turning to God in prayer when something happens in your life.

Thanks for responding.

Are your thoughts about where Paul is addressing works that burnt up in Corinthians?

 

[Bbrdrd]

Thanks for responding.

Are your thoughts about where Paul is addressing works that burnt up in Corinthians?

That could be applicable, though I didn't have a passage in mind. And of course not everyone who does such deeds is building on the foundation Paul speaks of. Most of my thoughts on this topic are based around James' discussion especially his use of Abraham as the example since Abraham's "work" isn't simply a pious action of devotion/obedience but hearing God's voice and trusting God to return Isaac to him as Hebrews 11 reveals.

 

[Magenta]

The will of fallen men is bound in sin and Satan. Their spirit is dead and will bound. Satan has them in his clutches. Man doesn’t do his part and Satan then sets him free. Man in the clutches of Satan cannot and will not seek God, seeing Satan has him bound. 2 Cor. 4:4 goes so far as to say Satan has their minds blinded, and cannot see light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

That’s why we sing ”Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me. I once was lost, but now I’m found, was BLIND but now I see.“

God has to come in and set him free. Then, and only then, is the will free to come to Him. Until you realize fallen man is enslaved to sin and Satan, your whole soteriology is off kilter.

Another long-opened tab I wish to close... after agreeing:

God does make it possible for us to respond in the affirmative

In case you are looking in, I hope you are well