Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
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He always stands at the door. All we have to do is to "open" it.
It seems to me believe doesn't go far enough. Trust seems the better fit. And that's kind of where a lot of confusion comes in because trust that's not acted upon cannot be properly said to be trust, but the works themselves are incidental and not a part of the salvation picture.
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EleventhHour
Guest
It is my understanding that "belief" within the original language also means "trust in."
Not sure about the using the word "incidental" to describe works, but definitely not part of salvation.
It's more the modern language I'm worried about because belief is a much weaker word than trust, especially when it comes to the level that the original languages conveyed.
Incidental may not be quite the right word, but what I meant to convey is that works will be produced on account of a genuine trust so if there are no works it's cause for concern.
Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:2
If works were incidental, as you say, all branches in Christ would bear fruit.
Works are not part of the salvation picture in regards to a new believer.
But once a person becomes a believer good works are part of the salvation picture; in fact, a true believer is zealous of good works.
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. Titus 2:14
Perhaps contingent would be a better word? Or contingent upon.
Not that salvation is contingent upon good works, but the other way 'round
“For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works,
which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” Ephesians 2:10
No, works never play into the salvation picture. The translation you use of John 15 is a rather poor translation of airei which should rather be rendered "lifted up," a practice that makes far more sense considering the metaphor of a vinedresser being used. All branches in Christ do bear fruit, and the ones that are not are put in a position that they will. We absolutely are zealous of good works, having the desires of Christ grafted into us upon the circumcision of our hearts. Those works, though, are results of our salvation not causes.
Oookay.
I guess nearly every translation out there is a poor translation since they translate airei as "takes away; cuts off; cuts away; breaks off; removes; lops off".
I did find a "translation" that renders the word the way you say, "lifts up":
“I am a true sprouting vine, and the farmer who tends the vine is my Father. 2 He cares for the branches connected to me by lifting and propping up the fruitless branches and pruning every fruitful branch to yield a greater harvest. 3 The words I have spoken over you have already cleansed you."
It's called The Passion Translation.
Here's what Dr. Andrew Shead (Old Testament scholar and NIV Translation Committee member) said about this translation:
"...abandoning all interest in textual accuracy, playing fast and loose with the original languages, and inserting so much new material into the text that it is at least 50% longer than the original. The result is a strongly sectarian translation that no longer counts as Scripture; by masquerading as a Bible it threatens to bind entire churches in thrall to a false god."
to be "In Christ" could mean to have Christ 'lifted up' in our hearts and minds. whenever He is not "lifted Up" we would therefore not be "In Christ".
24Then Jesus told His disciples, “If anyone would come after Me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me. 25For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.…
Oookay.
I guess nearly every translation out there is a poor translation since they translate airei as "takes away; cuts off; cuts away; breaks off; removes; lops off".
I did find a "translation" that renders the word the way you say, "lifts up":
“I am a true sprouting vine, and the farmer who tends the vine is my Father. 2 He cares for the branches connected to me by lifting and propping up the fruitless branches and pruning every fruitful branch to yield a greater harvest. 3 The words I have spoken over you have already cleansed you."
It's called The Passion Translation.
Here's what Dr. Andrew Shead (Old Testament scholar and NIV Translation Committee member) said about this translation:
"...abandoning all interest in textual accuracy, playing fast and loose with the original languages, and inserting so much new material into the text that it is at least 50% longer than the original. The result is a strongly sectarian translation that no longer counts as Scripture; by masquerading as a Bible it threatens to bind entire churches in thrall to a false god."
Yes, there are serious errors in every major translation and this verse is one of the verses where the translation is very unfortunate along with the picture being painted. Essentially the early translators translated it as it is and later translators have simply gone with the traditional rendering because it is persistent rather than looking at the metaphor. But the metaphor is key as vinedressers don't take away branches and cut them for not being fruitful, they raise them up off of the ground so that they are in a better position to be fruitful. While Andrew Shead's comments may be true of the Passion translation that's neither here nor there especially considering his specialty is OT which means he's likely speaking more to issues of Hebrew translation. And considering what the NIV committee did with the word "sarx" they're hardly the crew to accuse another translation of playing "fast and loose" for doctrinal purposes.
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EleventhHour
Guest
Perhaps contingent would be a better word? Or contingent upon.
Not that salvation is contingent upon good works, but the other way 'round
“For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works,
which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” Ephesians 2:10
True ...there are no "good works" unless one is saved.
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EleventhHour
Guest
And the churches are filled with many nominal Christians who do plenty of "works" I am far more concerned for them.
Dear @jackrosie and everyone,
God could have easily preprogrammed all of us but, He didn’t.....WHY?!!!
If God so greatly desires obedience, why not just program us to obey?!!!!
Why? Because God wants us to know Him and to love Him. LOVE cannot be preprogrammed or created.....Love has to have a choice.
God had to offer Adam and Eve a choice.
God offers us a choice - Life or Death. What is your choice?
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the Lord thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the Lord sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
Deuteronomy 30:19-20 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Deuteronomy 30:19-20&version=KJV
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
The words take away in John 15 are a poor translation, the word actually means to lift up, to take up from the ground, to raise up,
it was a well known thing that they did in Jesus day,if a branch did not bear fruit they lifted it up, so it could bear fruit.
John 3:16 (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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EleventhHour
Guest
We still do this today. attach them to the trellis, it provides aeration and exposure to the sun.
And I can tell you with grape vines, if the branches do not bear fruit one year we let them grow, bring more nutrients up from the root so the next year it will bear fruit.
The vine dresser cares for all the branches those that bear fruit and those who have not yet done so.
How much works is enough? What about loners who have no interaction with others? What about shut-ins with no means to perform works? How about someone who hears the word, receives it with joy then gets killed in a car accident five minutes later before doing a single work? Are these people of faith saved?