The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

[PlainWord]

@PlainWord ,

So... are you saying that even as far as "Revelation 19" has occurred in past history (surrounding the 70ad events)??

YES OF COURSE. In Rev 19, the Lord leads an angelic army in the clouds. Two first century non-Christian historians Josephus and Tacitus record an angelic army in the clouds at the start of the Jewish War in A.D. 66. This army in the clouds seen in A.D. 66 LITERALLY fulfills Biblical descriptions of the second coming exactly as it is described in Revelation 19. Then in v. 19 John sees the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war with Jesus and His army. This was fulfilled when the king Agrippa II and Queen Berenice, the kings of Israel, the earth, accompanied the Roman army and provided thousands of auxiliary troops in the assault on Israel and siege of Jerusalem during the Jewish War. In the following commentary on Revelation 19, the reader will be exposed to the complete fulfillment of this chapter during the Israel’s war with Rome.

[O]n the twenty-first day of the month of Artemisius [Jyar], a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sunsetting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities - Josephus

 

[KJV1611]

YES OF COURSE. In Rev 19, the Lord leads an angelic army in the clouds. Two first century non-Christian historians Josephus and Tacitus record an angelic army in the clouds at the start of the Jewish War in A.D. 66. This army in the clouds seen in A.D. 66 LITERALLY fulfills Biblical descriptions of the second coming exactly as it is described in Revelation 19. Then in v. 19 John sees the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war with Jesus and His army. This was fulfilled when the king Agrippa II and Queen Berenice, the kings of Israel, the earth, accompanied the Roman army and provided thousands of auxiliary troops in the assault on Israel and siege of Jerusalem during the Jewish War. In the following commentary on Revelation 19, the reader will be exposed to the complete fulfillment of this chapter during the Israel’s war with Rome.

[O]n the twenty-first day of the month of Artemisius [Jyar], a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sunsetting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities - Josephus

Are you sure they weren't drinking mushroom tea?

 

[PlainWord]

The day of the Lords vengeance doesn't mean that He and Jesus returned in presence, it means that's when the wrath was poured out.

Trust me, they were both there. Maybe not at the same time, but they were there just as God was there in Jer 4:26, Isa 64:1, Isa 19:1, Ez 38:20, Nah 1:5 and other places. In Act 3:19 the times of refreshing come from the Presence of the Lord. Ditto 1 Thes 2:19. So, we know His presence was here. These Futurists think the Lord's presence coming close to earth never happened before when it was a regular occurring event in the OT.

 

[PlainWord]

Are you sure they weren't drinking mushroom tea?

All of them? I thought you believed the Lord returned in 70 AD ish?

 

[KJV1611]

All of them? I thought you believed the Lord returned in 70 AD ish?

No I don't believe that. Jesus only returns one time as far as can tell and his second coming to this earth was at the resurrection.

 

[Truth7t7]

Show me.

The only postrib gathering is in heaven.
Rev 19 shows THAT GATHERING. It says the BRIDE has become THE WIFE.
That happens in heaven.

Think about it.

In your template you have the church gathered at the release of the king coming with the saints on white horses.
They meet the Lord in the clouds....NEVER SEE HEAVEN!!!

Poorly thought out and ONLY WORKS if my verses are either ignored or reframed.
Rev 14
Mat 25
Mat 24
Rev 19
Lot
Noah
Th14e dialog at the last supper
The ac killing every human refusing the mark
1 thes 4(only those in christ resurrected....and that pre living saints) you have it post living...[rev 14])

You need all that changed!!!!
Wow

You continue to post numbers of verses, but no actual "Written Scripture", why?

You continue to provide your opinions but no "Written Scripture", why?

Post you "Written" scripture and then debate begins.

14,25,24,19 "Hike"!

 

[Truth7t7]

Agreed on the bodily resurrection. No such thing. That's why I believe Matthew is recording a mass resuscitation and not a resurrection. My wife tends to support your view though and we debate this all the time. Since earth bodies don't rise after 4 days, why would they here?

I had almost forgotten about that Jude passage, but always saw them as the 144K that were martyred, beheaded per Rev 20, from the beginning of Christ's ministry until His return. There weren't any martyrs of Christ before the Cross with the exception of maybe JTB. See, I believe 1 Thes 4 is stating that God the Father is bringing those who sleep in Jesus back to heaven and they accompanied Christ when He returned after the tribulation of those days. You will recall, Christ is to sit at the right hand until the Lord has made His enemies His footstool. His "enemies" clearly were the Jewish religious order which had Him killed. You will recall also that they hid themselves from "the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!" Thus I think both Father and Son were present during the 66-70 AD time period.

You do much human writing providing "Opinion" without written scripture provided?

 

[Truth7t7]

No I don't believe that. Jesus only returns one time as far as can tell and his second coming to this earth was at the resurrection.

How do you justify the fact that untold scripture in the (New Testament) was written (After The Resurrection) concerning the (Second Coming)?

I will consider your aware of the volumes of this scripture?

All of the scripture in the (New Testament) doesn't really mean a future second coming after the resurrection?

Example:

2 Timothy 4:1KJV
4 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

TheDivineWatermark said: [Post #2330, pg 117]
^ Verses 38-39 (Jer25 ^ ) -

"37 The peaceful meadows have been silenced because of the LORD’s burning anger. 38 He has left His den like a lion [H3715], for their land has been made a desolation by the sword of the oppressor, and because of His fierce anger."


Hosea 5:14-15 (in the 5:14-6:3 context I'm always pointing out; This being from the perspective of His ASCENSION point in time) -

14 For I am like a lion to Ephraim and like a young lion [H3715 ^ ] to the house of Judah. I, even I, will tear them to pieces and go away. I will carry them off where no one can rescue them. 15 Then I will return to My place until they admit their guilt and seek My face; in their affliction they will earnestly seek Me [/seek Me early].”

Your responses are Chaos, mish mashed small large print, underline, brackets, bold, different colors?

I don't read your chaotic responses, in love

I didn't do the "Blue" myself... that's how it came when I Copied & Pasted from Bible Hub because those words are LINKED words [/LINKS].

Basically two paragraphs.

As previously stated, you have changed the word of God regarding "The Last Day", you don't want to see God's truth, because you pre-trib rapture is exposed as false.

"The Last Day, Means Last Day"!

The 7th and last trump is seen in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 below and 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 below, when there will be "Time No Longer" on earth, "The Last Day" you don't want to acknowledge this truth either, because your claims of a pre-trib rapture seen in these verses disappears

Revelation 10:6KJV
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53KJV
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

The resurrection of the believer seen above is the "Last Day" not a pre-trib rapture.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


John 11:23-24KJV
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day

Oh wow.

TWO colors [which did not "transfer" here]... and bolding... and (gasp!) BRACKETS!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ EDIT (to add):

... just sayin'... I'm not sure how my two-paragraph post (with the "auto-links" that CAME in "blue") is that much different from your Post #2347 (pg 118, https://christianchat.com/threads/the-absurdity-and-heresy-of-preterism.192468/post-4310874 ) which uses two colors, when that was your "complaint" regarding mine, in which one "color" shows (which, in that post you'd quoted of mine, in your Post #2334, I didn't even do the "blue," as I said).

But, whatever... if you cannot find fault with the content, you gotta go for complaining about the "formatting". Whoop-de-doo.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

TDW: SAID the Lk19:41-44 thing (both pertaining to "the city/Jerusalem," just as the Dan9:24-27 prophecy pertains)]

Yeah, like 70 AD. Jerusalem was burned (consumed by fire) and left desolate. When you have a perfectly good temple standing in what ever year Luke wrote get burned to the ground a few short years later, why not run with it?

I've stated repeatedly throughout this thread (though it does not seem you are hearing me), that "what Jesus SAID" on Palm Sunday (Luke 19:41-44) IS talking about the events surrounding 70ad!! I've said that (how many times, now??) Along with these (ALSO pertaining to the events surrounding the 70ad events):

--Luke 21:23,20 "Jerusalem COMPASSED WITH ARMIES" (in the v.12-24a section--the 70ad section of the Olivet Discourse); AND

--Matthew 22:7 ("and the king WAS WROTH...and SENT FORTH HIS ARMIES... and BURNED UP THEIR CITY"), but not verse 8's "THEN SAITH HE to his servants" ("THEN" means this came NEXT); AND

--Luke 19:41-44 which Jesus SAID on Palm Sunday (about the events surrounding 70ad events: "thine enemies shall... COMPASS THEE ROUND")

...all re: the events surrounding 70ad.

Why look for some future 3rd temple that nobody wrote about and look for another burning? Can it be any clearer?

Where have I said that there is "another burning" (like, of a temple or Jerusalem) in the sections NOT speaking of the events surrounding 70ad (in the Olivet Discourse, that's found only in Lk21:12-24a=70ad events)?

In THOSE sections, it is Jesus telling about the "abomination [SINGULAR] of desolation [SINGULAR] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, which "SINGULAR" reference is found in Daniel 12:11 "abomination [SINGULAR] which maketh desolate SET UP [H5414]"

[and then supplies certain, very-specifically-worded "day-amounts" and very specific "events": Daniel being resurrected to "stand in thy lot at the END of the days [/at the END of the days referred to IN THAT CONTEXT]," and the "BLESSED" aspect which FOLLOWS these "judgment" periods (v.12), and so forth. (To conflate this with what Dan9:26c says "desolaTIONS [PLURAL] are determined" [with the 70ad events INCLUDED in THIS verse] is not correct, but know that THAT verse IS referring to "the events surrounding 70ad, PLUS... [continuing on, following]")]


I'll try to come back later tonight (way later) with an illustration I've used in the past, to explain the chronology of the Olivet Discourse (where not all of it is speaking regarding the events surrounding 70ad--"the beginning of birth PANGS" are NOT, for example, but must FOLLOW the events of 70ad, in the SEQUENCE spelled out in the text)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

(To conflate this with what Dan9:26c says "desolaTIONS [PLURAL] are determined" [with the 70ad events INCLUDED in THIS verse] is not correct, but know that THAT verse IS referring to "the events surrounding 70ad, PLUS... [continuing on, following]")]

...sorry, in my haste to complete this post, I made the last part unclear. Here's what I meant:

--ONE PART is THIS: "In THOSE sections, it is Jesus telling about the "abomination [SINGULAR] of desolation [SINGULAR] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, which "SINGULAR" reference is found in Daniel 12:11 "abomination [SINGULAR] which maketh desolate SET UP [H5414]" [and then [chpt 12] supplies certain, very-specifically-worded "day-amounts" and very specific "events": Daniel being resurrected to "stand in thy lot at the END of the days [/at the END of the days referred to IN THAT CONTEXT]," and the "BLESSED" aspect which FOLLOWS these "judgment" periods (v.12), and so forth]";

--THE OTHER PART (at a different time-period) IS THIS: "Dan9:26c says "desolaTIONS [PLURAL] are determined" [with the 70ad events INCLUDED in THIS verse]... THAT verse IS referring to "the events surrounding 70ad, PLUS... [continuing on, following from there]")]"; THIS relates to His "be CUT OFF, and have nothing" (per Dan9:26a), at His "arrest/trials/death on the Cross"


[these ^ are not to be conflated, as they are DISTINCT... they occur at DISTINCT time-frames, and have wholly DISTINCT "outcomes/ends"]

 

[PlainWord]

No I don't believe that. Jesus only returns one time as far as can tell and his second coming to this earth was at the resurrection.

All this time I never knew this was your view. How do you handle Acts 1:11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

 

[PlainWord]

You do much human writing providing "Opinion" without written scripture provided?

I've provided plenty of scripture on this subject which supports my view that we already have our spiritual complete self trapped inside our flesh bodies. The only thing future to happen to that spiritual body once it leaves earth is it becomes glorified in heaven based on our rewards or lack there of. There is absolutely no purpose for our dead body once its dead. It's completely corrupt and not one molecule from it can enter heaven. Christ's was the only body not to see corruption.

To support we already have a spiritual body:

2 Cor 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 Cor 5:4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.

2 Pet 1:13-14 Yes, I think it is right, as long as I am in this tent, to stir you up by reminding you, knowing that shortly I must put off my tent, just as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me.

Luke 16 Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. You cannot have sensations, sight, pain, hearing, talking etc, without a body.

Non-Scriptural support> the many Near Death Experiences (NDE) where people who briefly went to heaven saw and recognized their loved ones who were young, healthy (in their 30s) and had bodies.

To support only Christ re-used His flesh body:

Acts 2:31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.

John 20:27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”

Christ's body bore the scars of the cross. Our spiritual bodies will not bear any of our earthly scar or burns.

To support not one molecule of our flesh body will be re-used:

1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 ... For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible.

Gen 18:27 Then Abraham answered and said, “Indeed now, I who am but dust and ashes have taken it upon myself to speak to the Lord

Job 34:15 All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust.

Psm 44:25 For our soul is bowed down to the dust; Our body clings to the ground.

Psm 104:29 You hide Your face, they are troubled; You take away their breath, they die and return to their dust.

Ecc 3:20 All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust.

Ecc 12:7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.

To support we get glorified after death:

1 Cor 15: 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.

Mat 5:12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven ...

Mat 16:27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints...

Rev 22:12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.

 

[PlainWord]

I didn't do the "Blue" myself... that's how it came when I Copied & Pasted from Bible Hub because those words are LINKED words [/LINKS].

Basically two paragraphs.



Oh wow.

TWO colors [which did not "transfer" here]... and bolding... and (gasp!) BRACKETS!

Can the last day be the last day of an age or only when time stops?

 

[PlainWord]

Hey TDW

I've stated repeatedly throughout this thread (though it does not seem you are hearing me), that "what Jesus SAID" on Palm Sunday (Luke 19:41-44) IS talking about the events surrounding 70ad!! I've said that (how many times, now??) Along with these (ALSO pertaining to the events surrounding the 70ad events):

--Luke 21:23,20 "Jerusalem COMPASSED WITH ARMIES" (in the v.12-24a section--the 70ad section of the Olivet Discourse); AND

Delighted you recognize at least this much. But then you apparently start placing 2,000 year gaps to the adjoining verses. What lets you do that?

Luke 21:24a??? Are you serious? Do you see a massive gap in time? I sure don't. It all flows through the rest of the chapter, good buddy:

24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring. etc.

Was Jerusalem trapped by the Romans in 70 AD? Did they leave when they were done? That was the time of the Gentiles.

Where have I said that there is "another burning" (like, of a temple or Jerusalem) in the sections NOT speaking of the events surrounding 70ad (in the Olivet Discourse, that's found only in Lk21:12-24a=70ad events)?

To see Dan 9:27 as future, there has to be another burning, right?

And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

CONSUME: to destroy, as by decomposition or burning:Fire consumed the forest.
DESOLATE: to lay waste; devastate. to deprive of inhabitants; depopulate.

Jerusalem was consumed by fire and left desolate by Titus, a Gentile prince who came after Christ was cut-off and who stood in the temple and whose troops worshiped him and declared him imperator in the temple compound where no foreigner was ever allowed.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Can the last day be the last day of an age or only when time stops?

The bottom portions of that post... I wasn't quoting my own post there, I was trying to quote another poster's post, but when the post messed up and it took me some time to straighten it out, I ran out of EDITING time to place his name on those quotes of his... but did so in the post that I put next (or, tried anyway).



[MY view is that there are "last dayS" [THREE of those total: "after TWO days" and "IN the THIRD day" from the perspective of His ascension point in time], and that thus, "the LAST Day" is the SEVENTH Millennium [i.e. the THIRD of the "three" from His ascension point in time]... not "a singular 24-hr day"... as I've stated repeatedly; IOW, I DISAGREE with his post ]

 

[PlainWord]

...sorry, in my haste to complete this post, I made the last part unclear. Here's what I meant:

--ONE PART is THIS: "In THOSE sections, it is Jesus telling about the "abomination [SINGULAR] of desolation [SINGULAR] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, which "SINGULAR" reference is found in Daniel 12:11 "abomination [SINGULAR] which maketh desolate SET UP [H5414]" [and then [chpt 12] supplies certain, very-specifically-worded "day-amounts" and very specific "events": Daniel being resurrected to "stand in thy lot at the END of the days [/at the END of the days referred to IN THAT CONTEXT]," and the "BLESSED" aspect which FOLLOWS these "judgment" periods (v.12), and so forth]";

--THE OTHER PART (at a different time-period) IS THIS: "Dan9:26c says "desolaTIONS [PLURAL] are determined" [with the 70ad events INCLUDED in THIS verse]... THAT verse IS referring to "the events surrounding 70ad, PLUS... [continuing on, following from there]")]"; THIS relates to His "be CUT OFF, and have nothing" (per Dan9:26a), at His "arrest/trials/death on the Cross"


[these ^ are not to be conflated, as they are DISTINCT... they occur at DISTINCT time-frames, and have wholly DISTINCT "outcomes/ends"]

I think you are over-thinking this good buddy by parsing singular uses with plural uses of the words abomination(s) and desolation(s) from Dan 9 and 12. The Roman army as a whole was an abomination. Individual Roman solders are abominations. The complete and utter destruction and depopulation of Jerusalem was a desolation. But when it happens to each city they are desolations or as each person left or died, they are desolations.

There is no Dan 9:26c.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

There are 2 parts to this verse. #1 Messiah is cut off. #2 the consequences to those responsible. Titus, the prince to come and his solders destroyed the city and temple. They paused for a few days to enjoy the victory then they tore down the rest of the walls and like a flood went through the rest of the city. Flood is used to describe an invading armies throughout the OT. Until the end of the Jewish War people fled, were killed or hauled away captive. This is all one event ending in 70 AD or for sure by 74 AD when Masada fell. No matter how you slice it, nothing is in our future. Only Daniel's people are in focus.

Dan 12 simply provides the spiritual context for the same time period. There was a war in heaven before the start of the Jewish war which was recorded by two historians. The resurrection apparently happened at about the same time, 66 AD, as recorded by Cassius Dao. Daniel's scroll (book) which was sealed until the time of the end was the same scroll Jesus opens in Rev 6.

In vs. 1 Daniel writes, “But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.” The church historian Eusebius writes, “[T]he members of the Jerusalem church by means of an oracle given by revelation to acceptable persons there, were ordered to leave the City [of Jerusalem] before the war began and settle in a town in Peraea called Pella.” In Pella these first century Jewish Christians waited out the war in safety. Thus Daniel’s prediction is correct, the saints had been saved.

Josephus seemly confirms this from vs. 10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Josephus says this: This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them.

As for the 1290 and 1335 days, more on that later.

 

[KJV1611]

How do you justify the fact that untold scripture in the (New Testament) was written (After The Resurrection) concerning the (Second Coming)?

I will consider your aware of the volumes of this scripture?

All of the scripture in the (New Testament) doesn't really mean a future second coming after the resurrection?

Example:

2 Timothy 4:1KJV
4 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

At the time of your death Jesus will appear at your death and he will judge you RIGHT THEN in his kingdom that is NOT OF THIS WORLD.

 

[KJV1611]

All this time I never knew this was your view. How do you handle Acts 1:11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

The men of Galilee were looking up into to heaven at Jesus. What was Stephen doing when he died?

(Act 7:55) But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,